Helicopter Pilots Salaries
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Floater NW, they are not directly employ at present.
Your point about long term sickness or leave relief is not so much of a problem as it may appear. If you have enough freelancers on the books and agreements with other contractors for mutual aid and a couple of employed floaters (I like that expression due to the Peter Kay advert), there should be no problems. In fact what do the bigger outfits do when pilots are short (in supply)? They hire them in.
Regain is right in what he says, Mil Pilots, with the required experience, are not in plentiful supply anymore. They are being offered employment in the mil to 55 in a lot of cases and are being paid bonuses to stay (£100,000 has been mentioned) and they are paid more than £53k. Yes they have the Afghan, Iraq etc merry-go-round (not so merry I know) but it is still a package that a lot are staying in for. Those that are getting out are not the high hours pilots they used to be and internal security is not what it used to be so the experience is not as it was.
All I am saying is that we should be rewarded for the skills we bring to the job. Simple philosophy really.
Your point about long term sickness or leave relief is not so much of a problem as it may appear. If you have enough freelancers on the books and agreements with other contractors for mutual aid and a couple of employed floaters (I like that expression due to the Peter Kay advert), there should be no problems. In fact what do the bigger outfits do when pilots are short (in supply)? They hire them in.
Regain is right in what he says, Mil Pilots, with the required experience, are not in plentiful supply anymore. They are being offered employment in the mil to 55 in a lot of cases and are being paid bonuses to stay (£100,000 has been mentioned) and they are paid more than £53k. Yes they have the Afghan, Iraq etc merry-go-round (not so merry I know) but it is still a package that a lot are staying in for. Those that are getting out are not the high hours pilots they used to be and internal security is not what it used to be so the experience is not as it was.
All I am saying is that we should be rewarded for the skills we bring to the job. Simple philosophy really.
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Hi guys
Pls be careful not to get the wrong end of the stick when comparing your pay to Military salaries.
1. Working to 55 is not guaranteed. In the RN you are more likely to get booted out at 50 (Only a Captain RN works to 55, and that's a rank few of us will gain; and yes, you can work to 55 if you're FTC(A) but how many of us are on that career stream?! Not many!) and as such get a much reduced pension because you haven't achieved the return of service required for a full pension.
2. £100K retention payment (Before immediate 40% TAX, 5 year bond to the service ): Applies to Pilots (£50K) - not observers or navigators, and Sqn Ldr / Lt Cdr rank (£50K). I know many who are eligible for this payment but are turning it down in favour of a better balance of pay / job satisfaction / family time. Many who will get the 100K bonus are staying in anyway (as is often the case with these payments..they're targetted indiscriminately)
3. Many getting out are experienced, and have at least 2000 hrs of solid NVG / night / poor weather / under fire / SAR / deck ops type experience. The 2000 hrs is the golden figure, because it means we have to do a lot less exams to get a CAA Licence.
4. Don't underestimate the Iraq / Afghan factor...these theatres (and the fact that we will be there for years to come) are having a big effect on morale.
The strain on people in the forces (like NHS / education) is huge...police / north sea / SAR in scotland employment is appealing in comparison.
Pls be careful not to get the wrong end of the stick when comparing your pay to Military salaries.
1. Working to 55 is not guaranteed. In the RN you are more likely to get booted out at 50 (Only a Captain RN works to 55, and that's a rank few of us will gain; and yes, you can work to 55 if you're FTC(A) but how many of us are on that career stream?! Not many!) and as such get a much reduced pension because you haven't achieved the return of service required for a full pension.
2. £100K retention payment (Before immediate 40% TAX, 5 year bond to the service ): Applies to Pilots (£50K) - not observers or navigators, and Sqn Ldr / Lt Cdr rank (£50K). I know many who are eligible for this payment but are turning it down in favour of a better balance of pay / job satisfaction / family time. Many who will get the 100K bonus are staying in anyway (as is often the case with these payments..they're targetted indiscriminately)
3. Many getting out are experienced, and have at least 2000 hrs of solid NVG / night / poor weather / under fire / SAR / deck ops type experience. The 2000 hrs is the golden figure, because it means we have to do a lot less exams to get a CAA Licence.
4. Don't underestimate the Iraq / Afghan factor...these theatres (and the fact that we will be there for years to come) are having a big effect on morale.
The strain on people in the forces (like NHS / education) is huge...police / north sea / SAR in scotland employment is appealing in comparison.
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Pilot Pay v Experience
As a recently qualified CPL(H) I have found getting work almost impossible. As stated earlier in the thread the North Sea operators are short of pilots but refuse to invest in training. I can think f no other profession, doctor, lawyer, bus driver, where you are expected to continue to fund once the initial qualificaion has been gained. A doctor straight from university is as much use a snooze button on a smoke alarm but is getting paid from the first job. We are expected to get a CPL(H) and then find another £30K for an IR. Isn't having spent upwards of £60K enough of a committment? I am doing freelance tour work and pleasure flying aiming to get above the magic 500 hours where a turbine operator might look at me. It is no way to treat a work force.
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NLJ you are quite right we should be paid what we are worth though how would that be? I would love another £10.000 but is that enough for what we do? And why aren't we IFR rated when we have got the kit and the word safety is mentioned every third second.
Don't get me wrong though, I love my Job and I think I have the best bobbies in the industry working with me but a couple of quid extra would go a miss considering....
Don't get me wrong though, I love my Job and I think I have the best bobbies in the industry working with me but a couple of quid extra would go a miss considering....
Avoid imitations
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Brilliant Stuff,
Make no mistake; you aren't IR'd simply because neither the provider or the providee wants to pay for it to happen. On joining a police provider, I had a current foreign IR at a time when instrument training was a big discussion point amongst the police. The employer said they weren't interested in getting it converted due to the cost, which wouldn't be recoverable from the contract.
Still haven't been enough marginal VFR/VCF incidents yet to justify a rule change. Call me a cynic if you like, but it's true.
Make no mistake; you aren't IR'd simply because neither the provider or the providee wants to pay for it to happen. On joining a police provider, I had a current foreign IR at a time when instrument training was a big discussion point amongst the police. The employer said they weren't interested in getting it converted due to the cost, which wouldn't be recoverable from the contract.
Still haven't been enough marginal VFR/VCF incidents yet to justify a rule change. Call me a cynic if you like, but it's true.
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In fact there are quite a few police pilots who had IRs when they "joined". The employers cared so little about this iissue that they have not even kept the pilots with existing IRs current (in general).
From conversations I have had, I know that a number of them have lost their IRs now, so that they would have to re-do them (not just do a renewal retest). It almost feels like deliberate de-skilling to make those pilots less employable outside police aviation.
From conversations I have had, I know that a number of them have lost their IRs now, so that they would have to re-do them (not just do a renewal retest). It almost feels like deliberate de-skilling to make those pilots less employable outside police aviation.
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Well you say that there is not the money, but for some of us it's not a great deal to have us rated on the machine. Our DUEO is of the opinion if the aircraft has got the kit why not use it.
And by 2010 all Police aircraft are supposed to have an autopilot for safer operations so why not IR?
I stand to be corrected on the above.
My company promised me they would not let my IR lapse, they still have two years to come through for me.
And by 2010 all Police aircraft are supposed to have an autopilot for safer operations so why not IR?
I stand to be corrected on the above.
My company promised me they would not let my IR lapse, they still have two years to come through for me.
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I think that Floater Northwest had a point. Maybe the Home Office ought to be setting a framework or baseline for Police/HEMS Pilot salaries across the country with enough flexibility for Police Forces to 'add to the basic package' for geographical differences. Lets face it Forces are paying contractors up to £100,000 per pilot per year! A lot of us would consider half of that a bloody good pay rise!! National pay structure for Direct Employ and National Register of Freelancers that forces can select from should they end up needing to cover shifts? A unit paying the above rate for 4 pilots on a 24hrs duty basis could afford to go direct employ (at a decent wage offer) with an additional pilot allowing a built in buffer for leave, short term sickness etc and still come out of it with change in their pockets. It would also leave the Chief Pilot time to do his job and be a chief amongst his indians.
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Maybe the Home Office ought to be setting a framework or baseline for Police/HEMS Pilot salaries
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anonythemouse,
You are correct in what you say. However, one of the reasons why this topic started is that direct employed police pilots are NOT getting that decent salary that you suggest (with one notable exception).
You are correct in what you say. However, one of the reasons why this topic started is that direct employed police pilots are NOT getting that decent salary that you suggest (with one notable exception).
Helinut
I was one of those who was promised that it would not be allowed to expire but of course they fibbed...but I was quietly expecting that anyway. On the positive side, the IR doesn't completely have to be redone - exams again followed by renewal test, all a pain and an expense but not the staggering cost of the original thing.
I was one of those who was promised that it would not be allowed to expire but of course they fibbed...but I was quietly expecting that anyway. On the positive side, the IR doesn't completely have to be redone - exams again followed by renewal test, all a pain and an expense but not the staggering cost of the original thing.
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I remember from a conference attended in the dim and not so distant past that the subject of central control by the FO was discused. The FO will not get involved as they take AOU/ASU to be a constabulary/commercial decision and will not get involved, saves a few pounds. Look around the country and see how many constabularies have a Air Wing how many are 24 hour some are day only and 4 days a week.
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Calling all UK Police/HEMS Pilots
I have watched this thread with interest, and sense a groundswell of opinion that we are not paid enough for the experience and skills that we bring to the job. This seems to be supported by the poor response to a couple of recent adverts for jobs for direct employed posts, and by the almost constant advertising in Flight by at least one of the major contractors.
Unfortunately, employers, be they Police authorities, or commercial air operators, will pay the minimum they can get away with, and furthermore, we have seen that they are not averse to moving the experience goalposts if they feel they need to. But, the pool is drying up despite the widened goalmouth: the self improver must make a massive financial commitment if he/she is to fulfil the experience requirements, and the military leaver is tempted away from the rotary world by the airlines’ salaries and Ts and Cs. Police/HEMS operators are relying on the culture and ethos found in many ex military pilots who seem almost thankful for having a job, especially one where they can go to sleep in their own bed most nights if they choose to, and where they can fly machinery that is almost state-of-the-art and where spares are usually available (yes, even the 902). But don’t forget – we work long hours, usually right up to the FTL limits, frequently including 12 hour nights shifts; we fly single pilot (apart from Virgin HEMS), in the worst weather, and usually without the benefit of an IR, but we are required to be able to cope with an inadvertent IMC encounter with the minimum training. There are no co-pilot slots for learning these skills on the job, so they have to be bought in
Bertie Thruster got it right way back at post #5 – we must learn from what happened in the North Sea; the only way we can change our lot is by collective bargaining, and a concerted effort of professionally led negotiations backed up by the facts from a benchmarking study comparing our skills, experience and responsibilities with other commercial pilots, and this must be supported by a workforce of pilots united behind the negotiators, and not afraid to put their money where their mouths are. If you feel this is a bit reminiscent of British Leyland and the NCB in the late 70s early 80s, then I am sorry, but I think you are wrong. BALPA helped rewrite the helicopter salary rulebook with CHC and then Bristows 10 years ago, we must use their skills and experience for our sector of the industry, or be resigned to wringing our hands and saying, “We must be worth more than this” on web forums and in crew rooms the length and breadth of the country.
Despite the current financial squeeze on funding, the public demands access to Air Ambulance services and the charities seem to have very little difficulty fundraising. Similarly, it will be a very brave Police Authority that gets rid of its helicopter solely due to increased pilotage costs. If you really want the financial rewards that our skills and experience are worth then get organised, get recognised, and give your company council the support it needs to run a really successful campaign.
Unfortunately, employers, be they Police authorities, or commercial air operators, will pay the minimum they can get away with, and furthermore, we have seen that they are not averse to moving the experience goalposts if they feel they need to. But, the pool is drying up despite the widened goalmouth: the self improver must make a massive financial commitment if he/she is to fulfil the experience requirements, and the military leaver is tempted away from the rotary world by the airlines’ salaries and Ts and Cs. Police/HEMS operators are relying on the culture and ethos found in many ex military pilots who seem almost thankful for having a job, especially one where they can go to sleep in their own bed most nights if they choose to, and where they can fly machinery that is almost state-of-the-art and where spares are usually available (yes, even the 902). But don’t forget – we work long hours, usually right up to the FTL limits, frequently including 12 hour nights shifts; we fly single pilot (apart from Virgin HEMS), in the worst weather, and usually without the benefit of an IR, but we are required to be able to cope with an inadvertent IMC encounter with the minimum training. There are no co-pilot slots for learning these skills on the job, so they have to be bought in
Bertie Thruster got it right way back at post #5 – we must learn from what happened in the North Sea; the only way we can change our lot is by collective bargaining, and a concerted effort of professionally led negotiations backed up by the facts from a benchmarking study comparing our skills, experience and responsibilities with other commercial pilots, and this must be supported by a workforce of pilots united behind the negotiators, and not afraid to put their money where their mouths are. If you feel this is a bit reminiscent of British Leyland and the NCB in the late 70s early 80s, then I am sorry, but I think you are wrong. BALPA helped rewrite the helicopter salary rulebook with CHC and then Bristows 10 years ago, we must use their skills and experience for our sector of the industry, or be resigned to wringing our hands and saying, “We must be worth more than this” on web forums and in crew rooms the length and breadth of the country.
Despite the current financial squeeze on funding, the public demands access to Air Ambulance services and the charities seem to have very little difficulty fundraising. Similarly, it will be a very brave Police Authority that gets rid of its helicopter solely due to increased pilotage costs. If you really want the financial rewards that our skills and experience are worth then get organised, get recognised, and give your company council the support it needs to run a really successful campaign.
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Excellent post Queen O` the Skies I agree its time for BALBA to help us onshore guys out. 44K with IR cheap labour or what!
our company has had several go in the last 6 months others to follow shortly i suspect. We have no say on leave or rosters often doing upto 200hrs duty in 28days , hard graft.
Without Union help we will continue to get shafted!
our company has had several go in the last 6 months others to follow shortly i suspect. We have no say on leave or rosters often doing upto 200hrs duty in 28days , hard graft.Without Union help we will continue to get shafted!
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Queen, you make some interesting points. Do you not think though, that the lack of interest in adverts by the bigger players and that of the North Wales Police etc, would have given these employers a bit of a clue?
That said what have they done to entice applicants? Nothing, they continue to advertise with little or no joy, but fail to understand the problem.
I am not sure that BALPA would be able to wake these sleeping dinosaurs. I would be pleased if that were so, but without fear of contradiction, I feel not. I think, as you said, the goal posts would be shifted and in addition inexperienced and unsuitable pilots would fill the places. A disaster in the making.
God I sound like a miserable old git. Maybe I am?
That said what have they done to entice applicants? Nothing, they continue to advertise with little or no joy, but fail to understand the problem.
I am not sure that BALPA would be able to wake these sleeping dinosaurs. I would be pleased if that were so, but without fear of contradiction, I feel not. I think, as you said, the goal posts would be shifted and in addition inexperienced and unsuitable pilots would fill the places. A disaster in the making.
God I sound like a miserable old git. Maybe I am?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Nice post QotS, I especially liked the bit where you said,
"If you really want the financial rewards that our skills and experience are worth then get organised, get recognised, and give your company council the support it needs to run a really successful campaign."
Will that be the Company Council of the Company that you are having to leave in order to be directly employed?
How will we fare against a force saving even more money after ending the contractors contract, by seeing how much they can get away with on pilots salaries! I can just see the interest!
I feel a different kettle of fish is on the worktop when they might have to deal with a Police Authority, especially one with the, "not being held to ransom", "they are getting paid more than before so should be happy" and a 'like or or lump it' attitude.
It's all summed up when the observers log the crew on at the start of a duty period......."....and Pilot number 4."
I'll get my cycle clips!
"If you really want the financial rewards that our skills and experience are worth then get organised, get recognised, and give your company council the support it needs to run a really successful campaign."
Will that be the Company Council of the Company that you are having to leave in order to be directly employed?
How will we fare against a force saving even more money after ending the contractors contract, by seeing how much they can get away with on pilots salaries! I can just see the interest!
I feel a different kettle of fish is on the worktop when they might have to deal with a Police Authority, especially one with the, "not being held to ransom", "they are getting paid more than before so should be happy" and a 'like or or lump it' attitude.
It's all summed up when the observers log the crew on at the start of a duty period......."....and Pilot number 4."
I'll get my cycle clips!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Should we just lump it and crack on?
Who dictates the minimum requirements and what are the absolute minimums someone will take? I know for a fact that somewhere any twin hours requirement is now out the window!
#4