Stepping up from PPL...
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Stepping up from PPL...
Been reading the forum for ages but dont think I have ever posted before
I have looked through the forum and its a minefield of information thats confusing!
Can someone help me out...
Basically im 19, just completed PPL(H) and am trying to decide/figure out what to do next. I quite fancy ending up doing air ambulance or filming type work anywhere in the world eventually but im really struggling to work out the best way to get from where I am now, to where I want to go...
I could take out a mahusive loan and pay for CPL myself, but would have to complete that in an R-22....But once thats done, there wont be much chance of getting anymore money to do IFR, turbine etc to actually make myself employable...
Even if I could get my CPL, IFR etc I still wouldnt have enough turbine time to be employable by the local playschool let alone at a respectable job....
I have looked at going into one of the services...they pay me and pay for me to everything so lots of turbine time, and some pretty amazing experience flying in werid places...but im not that comfortable with commiting myself to the forces for some reason
..
Are there any options open to me that I havnt mentioned above?....What is the most sensible way of getting a varied and wide range of experience whilst training?...
Any advice anyone has would really be appreciated.
I have looked through the forum and its a minefield of information thats confusing!
Can someone help me out...
Basically im 19, just completed PPL(H) and am trying to decide/figure out what to do next. I quite fancy ending up doing air ambulance or filming type work anywhere in the world eventually but im really struggling to work out the best way to get from where I am now, to where I want to go...
I could take out a mahusive loan and pay for CPL myself, but would have to complete that in an R-22....But once thats done, there wont be much chance of getting anymore money to do IFR, turbine etc to actually make myself employable...
Even if I could get my CPL, IFR etc I still wouldnt have enough turbine time to be employable by the local playschool let alone at a respectable job....
I have looked at going into one of the services...they pay me and pay for me to everything so lots of turbine time, and some pretty amazing experience flying in werid places...but im not that comfortable with commiting myself to the forces for some reason
..Are there any options open to me that I havnt mentioned above?....What is the most sensible way of getting a varied and wide range of experience whilst training?...
Any advice anyone has would really be appreciated.
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It's been said on many threads before (there, got the obligatory "use the search!" in 
), but you're young enough to apply for the few bursaries out there. The one run by Dennis Kenyon springs to mind, but there are a few others - have a look through the Air League website (Google will help you find it).
Don't rule out the forces until you've actually had a proper look and spoken to a few people (the military aircrew forum might be a good place to start). I will say that if you're just joining up to get free flight training, you probably won't have a great time (assuming you get in at all). Also, at least for the Army Air Corps, to go straight in as a pilot, you need to be an officer, and that usually means you need a degree (I think).
I wish I'd started out in flying at 19, as the earlier you get started, the better. Consider the USA route (if you can scrape up the cash). Good luck!
), but you're young enough to apply for the few bursaries out there. The one run by Dennis Kenyon springs to mind, but there are a few others - have a look through the Air League website (Google will help you find it).Don't rule out the forces until you've actually had a proper look and spoken to a few people (the military aircrew forum might be a good place to start). I will say that if you're just joining up to get free flight training, you probably won't have a great time (assuming you get in at all). Also, at least for the Army Air Corps, to go straight in as a pilot, you need to be an officer, and that usually means you need a degree (I think).
I wish I'd started out in flying at 19, as the earlier you get started, the better. Consider the USA route (if you can scrape up the cash). Good luck!
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tegwin,
I am exactly the same except a year older (20).
Before I say anything, if it is what you REALLY want to do, what I say or wont anybody else on this forum says wont change what you think, youll just persevere.
At one year ahead of you, I would advise that having got your PPL you keep that and look for other things in life initially.
I know I have 3 other things in life I wouldn't mind doing, and the pleasure of flying for me can be obtained with just a PPL.
I am currently close to starting my CPL, would I do it all again? Yes up to PPL.
However I am obviously the same as you and most other Helicopter pilots in that we just carry on regardless for a reason we cannot explain! Is it the love of flying or the lifestyle?
Anyway although this post probably isn't alot of help to you I think I should just say that the answer you want you wont find here because no Pilot other than you can answer it!
Good luck
MADY
I am exactly the same except a year older (20).
Before I say anything, if it is what you REALLY want to do, what I say or wont anybody else on this forum says wont change what you think, youll just persevere.
At one year ahead of you, I would advise that having got your PPL you keep that and look for other things in life initially.
I know I have 3 other things in life I wouldn't mind doing, and the pleasure of flying for me can be obtained with just a PPL.
I am currently close to starting my CPL, would I do it all again? Yes up to PPL.
However I am obviously the same as you and most other Helicopter pilots in that we just carry on regardless for a reason we cannot explain! Is it the love of flying or the lifestyle?
Anyway although this post probably isn't alot of help to you I think I should just say that the answer you want you wont find here because no Pilot other than you can answer it!
Good luck
MADY
If the forces don't appeal, budget for 250hrs and then a Flight Instructor rating. This will give you the best start in the onshore market (which is where you seem to want to get to).
You would be wasting your money by spending it on an IR at this stage.
If you can't find the funds for 250hrs + FI rating, then think long and hard about committing any funds to a CPL(H) at this stage. They will be wasted.
My best advice? Buy a house. Keep flying occasionally (to have fun(!) and to slowly work your way towards 250hrs). After 5 years, sell the house. If you've been canny (and a bit lucky with the housing market) the equity that you'll earn (£50k-ish) will be enough to fund the rest of your training. Best of all, you won't have to service a loan.
I know that 5 years sounds like an awfully long time but at 24, you'll still be relatively young for this market. If things then work out, you'll be flying an Air Ambulance by the age of 30.
Best of luck with which ever path you choose. Don't worry, it IS achievable.
B73
You would be wasting your money by spending it on an IR at this stage.
If you can't find the funds for 250hrs + FI rating, then think long and hard about committing any funds to a CPL(H) at this stage. They will be wasted.
My best advice? Buy a house. Keep flying occasionally (to have fun(!) and to slowly work your way towards 250hrs). After 5 years, sell the house. If you've been canny (and a bit lucky with the housing market) the equity that you'll earn (£50k-ish) will be enough to fund the rest of your training. Best of all, you won't have to service a loan.
I know that 5 years sounds like an awfully long time but at 24, you'll still be relatively young for this market. If things then work out, you'll be flying an Air Ambulance by the age of 30.
Best of luck with which ever path you choose. Don't worry, it IS achievable.
B73
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This is partly off-topic, but at 19 there were things i was not interested in and didn't really comprehend...
Concentrate on the phrase 'lucky' in that statement and you will be ok as you will appreciate there are risks involved in this illiquid investment.
Like many other markets, including the helicopter pilot employment market, it's important to understand the building blocks that make up the supply and demand. The UK housing market features extreme leverage, substantial transaction costs, a generation of buyers who do not understand inflation or the thanks we owe to the chinese for keeping it down for us, local and central goverment conspiring to control supply, a huge drop off in subsidised public housing provision, increased demand from a naive buy-to-let brigade who are yield-clueless, use of dubious/cheap financing (interest only mortgages, loans from parents), an addiction to short-term rates (cf trad. US market), local factors like school catchment areas, highly salaried staff who 'know' their lifetime jobs can't be outsourced to eastern europe/india, the list goes on...
If you want to live somewhere for sometime, buy a house, enjoy living there and take advantage of the CGT exemption. If you think it's an investment that you're depending on to fund a career (or a pension), ensure you learn a bit about the risks+issues first and don't limit your choices to the UK market.
Back on topic - as others have noted, the pilot's world is international so make sure you don't limit your career horizon to just choices in the UK. Good luck.
My best advice? Buy a house. Keep flying occasionally (to have fun(!) and to slowly work your way towards 250hrs). After 5 years, sell the house. If you've been canny (and a bit lucky with the housing market) the equity that you'll earn (£50k-ish)
Like many other markets, including the helicopter pilot employment market, it's important to understand the building blocks that make up the supply and demand. The UK housing market features extreme leverage, substantial transaction costs, a generation of buyers who do not understand inflation or the thanks we owe to the chinese for keeping it down for us, local and central goverment conspiring to control supply, a huge drop off in subsidised public housing provision, increased demand from a naive buy-to-let brigade who are yield-clueless, use of dubious/cheap financing (interest only mortgages, loans from parents), an addiction to short-term rates (cf trad. US market), local factors like school catchment areas, highly salaried staff who 'know' their lifetime jobs can't be outsourced to eastern europe/india, the list goes on...
If you want to live somewhere for sometime, buy a house, enjoy living there and take advantage of the CGT exemption. If you think it's an investment that you're depending on to fund a career (or a pension), ensure you learn a bit about the risks+issues first and don't limit your choices to the UK market.
Back on topic - as others have noted, the pilot's world is international so make sure you don't limit your career horizon to just choices in the UK. Good luck.
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Bloody hell Bravo73, I nearly fell off my seat when I read your post. You may be a clued up guy when it comes to aviation, but I'd DEFINATELY leave the financial advising to someone else!
Housing is sitting right at the peak of the biggest bubble in history; not somewhere I'd be putting my money right now. Even the lovely Miss Sarah Beaney is predicting its all about to go bottoms up.
www.housepricecrash.co.uk may be a good read for some.
Housing is sitting right at the peak of the biggest bubble in history; not somewhere I'd be putting my money right now. Even the lovely Miss Sarah Beaney is predicting its all about to go bottoms up.
www.housepricecrash.co.uk may be a good read for some.
You're right, gents, I'm not a financial advisor.
But I bought a flat more than 5 years ago and it has gone up in value a lot more than £50k.
Now I know that the past performance of any market is no indicator of future performance (!), but long term, the only way that the housing market in this country is going is up. Even if Sarah Beaney's bubble might burst.
There a plenty of people over on the Wannabe's how have paid for their training using the equity that they have gained from the housing market.
This is, after all, just my personal experience.
If you wouldn't recommend the housing market, how else would you advise somebody of that age to raise £50k+ of capital in 5 years? And, no, peddling drugs isn't an option...
PS To conclude the tale, I have decided not to sell the flat (because it continues to 'earn' at a far greater rate than I probably ever will). I have bought a second house which I plan to sell in 5 years. In order to pay off my training loan.
But I bought a flat more than 5 years ago and it has gone up in value a lot more than £50k.
Now I know that the past performance of any market is no indicator of future performance (!), but long term, the only way that the housing market in this country is going is up. Even if Sarah Beaney's bubble might burst.
There a plenty of people over on the Wannabe's how have paid for their training using the equity that they have gained from the housing market.
This is, after all, just my personal experience.
If you wouldn't recommend the housing market, how else would you advise somebody of that age to raise £50k+ of capital in 5 years? And, no, peddling drugs isn't an option...
PS To conclude the tale, I have decided not to sell the flat (because it continues to 'earn' at a far greater rate than I probably ever will). I have bought a second house which I plan to sell in 5 years. In order to pay off my training loan.
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Tegwin
I'd seriously look at the Royal Navy if RW is your desire. You probably won't get RW if you join the RAF, and the officer slots in the Army Air Corps don't get much flying in after 1/2 tours.
The RN is a very good Service (forget the hostage cock-up) and the crack is superb. The flying is great, and most od the aircraft are single pilot with the exception of Sea King SAR and Sea King AEW. So you'll get lots of P1 from an early age, which you won't get in the other Services.
If you have the academic reqs (2 A levels) and the leadership skills you should give it a try. Costs nothing to try, and it might get you exactly what you want. Cruise over to the Mil Forum and have a look.
The RN will work hard to show you what you can do, and the recruiting officers will arrange ship and air station visits at no cost.
I'd seriously look at the Royal Navy if RW is your desire. You probably won't get RW if you join the RAF, and the officer slots in the Army Air Corps don't get much flying in after 1/2 tours.
The RN is a very good Service (forget the hostage cock-up) and the crack is superb. The flying is great, and most od the aircraft are single pilot with the exception of Sea King SAR and Sea King AEW. So you'll get lots of P1 from an early age, which you won't get in the other Services.
If you have the academic reqs (2 A levels) and the leadership skills you should give it a try. Costs nothing to try, and it might get you exactly what you want. Cruise over to the Mil Forum and have a look.
The RN will work hard to show you what you can do, and the recruiting officers will arrange ship and air station visits at no cost.
The Original Whirly
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Now I know that the past performance of any market is no indicator of future performance (!), but long term, the only way that the housing market in this country is going is up.
So buying a house could be the best decision you ever make...or the worst.
Last edited by Whirlybird; 5th May 2007 at 06:48.
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The ugly twins, 'wealth effect' and 'momentum investment' have appeared so one last near-topic post...
Houses are not quite tulips, but if you're not familiar with the reference i'd suggest reading this before making any investments financed by debt. Don't worry, this is not an apocalyptic piece, just an educational one. SKIP the title and first half, start half way down at "A cause to celebrate?":
BBC Economics Editor, Evan Davis Analysis - BBC News website
Actually there is one potential advantage associated with youth and taking on risky investments that could incur debt, but it's not something i'd promote so i'll leave that angle as an exercise for the reader.
Houses are not quite tulips, but if you're not familiar with the reference i'd suggest reading this before making any investments financed by debt. Don't worry, this is not an apocalyptic piece, just an educational one. SKIP the title and first half, start half way down at "A cause to celebrate?":
BBC Economics Editor, Evan Davis Analysis - BBC News website
Actually there is one potential advantage associated with youth and taking on risky investments that could incur debt, but it's not something i'd promote so i'll leave that angle as an exercise for the reader.
Hovering AND talking
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How many 18-year-olds can afford to buy a house? And where does the 18-year-old live once he's sold the house to realise the capital?
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
You were all pretty quick to shoot me down but I can't recall anybody else suggesting any realistic alternatives...
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You were all pretty quick to shoot me down but I can't recall anybody else suggesting any realistic alternatives...
Makes joining the Navy all the more attractive, as he can gain a degree for free during his training and service.
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Civvy vs. Mil
With the benefit of hindsight, I would definitely have applied to the armed forces! in fact, even now with a CPL, I'd still have a go if I wasn't over the age limit! (not by much though! )
Whichever route you take, good luck!
Whichever route you take, good luck!
This has got to be better than suggesting that somebody should get £50-£100k in debt. How is an 18 year old expected to cover £500+pm in training loan repayments?
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A few years have passed and the classic trio of individuals, corporations and governments are now pondering the wisdom of high debt relative to (sustainable) income.
Something to consider for British citizens:
Make financial education a compulsory part of the school curriculum - e-petitions
Something to consider for British citizens:
Make financial education a compulsory part of the school curriculum - e-petitions
! Can I have a look in your crystal ball chukka???!!!
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It's interesting to re-read some of this in light of the last few years.
I suppose you can split financial advice into basic facts including tax treatment but the rest is taking a view/position on direction or level of risk. Any conclusion needs to be supported by evidence and reasoning for it to be credible.
One of my colleagues mentioned CDS (credit default swaps) market was going to blow up a few years back. He didn't say why, he didn't know why. Had he had discovered and explained the way these contracts are structured then I certainly would have said there was a reasonable chance of it happening.
In many way Bravo73's spot on, a lot of investors/speculators/(choose your favourite word) discovered the (addictive) properties of leverage and made far larger amounts of money then they could have done without it.
As for 18 year olds and affordability, it sounds like in the US they would lend to anyone and in the UK with self-certification (US translation, liar loans), interest only mortgages, buy to let frenzy i'd imagine it could have been done perhaps with some short-term money (from a relative). In some US states this would be risk free to borrower due to non-recourse legislation, in the UK personal bankruptcy would allow someone with nothing else to lose the chance to take higher risks. There are some parallels here with certain parts of the finance industry where employees have upside but little downside as the shareholders take that and at some size the state (tax payer) takes it after that.
An interesting, if irrelevant, nuance is student debt treatment. This is often external to bankruptcy or similar processes to prevent abuse.
There were some excellent charts on BBC Newsnight last night from economists showing their favourite visualisations of data and some very concise observations/conclusions. It includes one with the often ignored private sector debt in the UK.
BBC News - Top economists reveal their graphs of 2011
Not often you hear Gillian Tett talking about porn on TV, "This isn't chart porn, it's chart manga!"
UPDATE: it's make or break time for the dodgy cds market.
BBC News - How to love a Greek default
I suppose you can split financial advice into basic facts including tax treatment but the rest is taking a view/position on direction or level of risk. Any conclusion needs to be supported by evidence and reasoning for it to be credible.
One of my colleagues mentioned CDS (credit default swaps) market was going to blow up a few years back. He didn't say why, he didn't know why. Had he had discovered and explained the way these contracts are structured then I certainly would have said there was a reasonable chance of it happening.
In many way Bravo73's spot on, a lot of investors/speculators/(choose your favourite word) discovered the (addictive) properties of leverage and made far larger amounts of money then they could have done without it.
As for 18 year olds and affordability, it sounds like in the US they would lend to anyone and in the UK with self-certification (US translation, liar loans), interest only mortgages, buy to let frenzy i'd imagine it could have been done perhaps with some short-term money (from a relative). In some US states this would be risk free to borrower due to non-recourse legislation, in the UK personal bankruptcy would allow someone with nothing else to lose the chance to take higher risks. There are some parallels here with certain parts of the finance industry where employees have upside but little downside as the shareholders take that and at some size the state (tax payer
) takes it after that.An interesting, if irrelevant, nuance is student debt treatment. This is often external to bankruptcy or similar processes to prevent abuse.
There were some excellent charts on BBC Newsnight last night from economists showing their favourite visualisations of data and some very concise observations/conclusions. It includes one with the often ignored private sector debt in the UK.
BBC News - Top economists reveal their graphs of 2011
Not often you hear Gillian Tett talking about porn on TV, "This isn't chart porn, it's chart manga!"
UPDATE: it's make or break time for the dodgy cds market.
BBC News - How to love a Greek default
Last edited by FairWeatherFlyer; 9th Mar 2012 at 11:24. Reason: minor update for developments in cds market
