The end of oil and aviation?
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The US has a major cultural problem. They assume fuel is available like water. It is a source that is always cheap and that we can get anytime we want, that we don't have to be bothered about ..
I mean, it's no secret that vehicle technology in the US (engine & vehicle itself) is about 15 years behind European and Japanese technology. Why bother evolve when we can put a good old 6-liter petrol engine in a big-ass truck that gives you like 12 mpg and equip it with plastic quality my dad had in his Mazda from 1983
- a truck they just use for grocery shopping and picking up the kids at school with. Like one of the TopGear guys said sitting in an American car, knocking on the plastic with a big questionmark in his face "Where do they get this from???" ..
And it amasses me, since they have been able to come up with high-tech-**** like the Blackbird, Space Shuttle, Stealth Fighter etc. etc. - so I know they can if they really want to ..
Was it a few weeks ago I heard in the news, that the US produce twice as much energy, general speaking, than the Europeans, despite there are less Americans than Europeans ..
They are like a sidewinder missile. Shoot-and-forget, or buy-and-forget society. They need to grow up - if they would reach same level as Europe in this matter about consumer technology and pollution, a significant less amount of fuel will be consumed and a lot less pollution would be let out ..
When I tell Americans the price of fuel in Europe, they get this blue-screen in their eyes with the text: "Does not compute". They can simply not understand those prices - or that VW/Audi make roadcars that goes 77 mpg, they are like "WHAT??" when they are proud that their truck goes 22 mpg - and that diesel cars in Europe is getting closer and closer to be sold more than petrol, because they run longer on the mileage and modern dieselengines pollute less ..
- madman
The US has a major cultural problem. They assume fuel is available like water. It is a source that is always cheap and that we can get anytime we want, that we don't have to be bothered about ..
I mean, it's no secret that vehicle technology in the US (engine & vehicle itself) is about 15 years behind European and Japanese technology. Why bother evolve when we can put a good old 6-liter petrol engine in a big-ass truck that gives you like 12 mpg and equip it with plastic quality my dad had in his Mazda from 1983
- a truck they just use for grocery shopping and picking up the kids at school with. Like one of the TopGear guys said sitting in an American car, knocking on the plastic with a big questionmark in his face "Where do they get this from???" ..And it amasses me, since they have been able to come up with high-tech-**** like the Blackbird, Space Shuttle, Stealth Fighter etc. etc. - so I know they can if they really want to ..
Was it a few weeks ago I heard in the news, that the US produce twice as much energy, general speaking, than the Europeans, despite there are less Americans than Europeans ..
They are like a sidewinder missile. Shoot-and-forget, or buy-and-forget society. They need to grow up - if they would reach same level as Europe in this matter about consumer technology and pollution, a significant less amount of fuel will be consumed and a lot less pollution would be let out ..
When I tell Americans the price of fuel in Europe, they get this blue-screen in their eyes with the text: "Does not compute". They can simply not understand those prices - or that VW/Audi make roadcars that goes 77 mpg, they are like "WHAT??" when they are proud that their truck goes 22 mpg - and that diesel cars in Europe is getting closer and closer to be sold more than petrol, because they run longer on the mileage and modern dieselengines pollute less ..
- madman
"The US has a major cultural problem. They assume fuel is available like water. It is a source that is always cheap and that we can get anytime we want, that we don't have to be bothered about .."
True to a point, but it's changing. $3.00 gallon for gas is dragging us into reality fairly quickly. The sales figures for low MPG trucks and SUV's have dropped like a rock. In my case, since diesels won't be available for a couple of years, a 30+ MPG car was recently bought, rendering the 12 MPG SUV to backup missions.
When you discussed the price of fuel, did you happen to mention how much of that was for taxes and where they went? (although we have some hidden "security" fees for carriers and B2's)
True to a point, but it's changing. $3.00 gallon for gas is dragging us into reality fairly quickly. The sales figures for low MPG trucks and SUV's have dropped like a rock. In my case, since diesels won't be available for a couple of years, a 30+ MPG car was recently bought, rendering the 12 MPG SUV to backup missions.
When you discussed the price of fuel, did you happen to mention how much of that was for taxes and where they went? (although we have some hidden "security" fees for carriers and B2's)
The US has a major cultural problem. They assume fuel is available like water. It is a source that is always cheap and that we can get anytime we want, that we don't have to be bothered about ..
When yer digs is in Cow****, Montana and it is two hundred miles to the nearest Walmart....it makes for a different situation than nipping down to the corner store for a loaf of bread.
I can still buy what passes for beer in these parts for fifty Pence your money. I might have to drive a hundred miles to the pub but that is what living in the West is about.
Of course we can drive from Miami to Seattle with no traffic lights or radar cameras in a mere six days of driving (3344 miles) or San Diego to Presque Isle (3313 miles) and another six day drive. We have truckers who round trip a run from Miami to Seattle each week hauling food products.
I can still remember petrol selling for 18.9 Cents per US Gallon but now pay $3.09 for the same gallon. My car back then got 12 mpg and my new diesel pickup gets 23 mpg so some change has taken place.
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Ohh, I do understand your huge distances, that your distances is more than a European is used to travel and might be able to comprehend. Just visited the in-laws a few weeks ago, going from FL to NC where they build WallyWorld's in the middle of a cornfield, and that's only like what, half way up the eastcoast? And a reason why we took her son's Jetta rather than my girl's 22mpg Tacoma, because it runs like 50% longer on the mileage ..
So with your distances, even more reason to evolve in technology and make your vehicles run longer per milage than what is the standard now. Like getting up-to-date with engine technology and decrease the size of some of your cars. But as one tolled me over-there, "there is a thing about our trucks. We love our trucks" ..
I do understand that some part of the population need a big-ass truck like on the far-out countryside, but for God sacke put a diesel in it - plain stupid having petrol in a truck ..
But for those using them just for shopping and other daily stuff, nothing justify a big-ass truck - and nothing justify why you need a big V6 or V8 in your family car except to show of that mine is bigger than yours ..
There are other ways of making horsepower and torque than just increasing the volume of an engine ..
- madman
So with your distances, even more reason to evolve in technology and make your vehicles run longer per milage than what is the standard now. Like getting up-to-date with engine technology and decrease the size of some of your cars. But as one tolled me over-there, "there is a thing about our trucks. We love our trucks" ..
I do understand that some part of the population need a big-ass truck like on the far-out countryside, but for God sacke put a diesel in it - plain stupid having petrol in a truck ..
But for those using them just for shopping and other daily stuff, nothing justify a big-ass truck - and nothing justify why you need a big V6 or V8 in your family car except to show of that mine is bigger than yours ..
There are other ways of making horsepower and torque than just increasing the volume of an engine ..
- madman
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I did hear of a chap who got over 100 mpg (more like 138) out of his VW by essentially replacing the carburettor with a miniature air conditioning unit - it vapourised the fuel better.
Phil
Phil
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VW made a what we call 3L ver. of the little Lupo, with diesel engine. A small 4-seater car. 3L means it uses 3 liter of fuel per 100 km. - equivilant to some 77 mpg ..
Their sistercompany Audi also made a 3L of their Audi A2 4-seater car ..
Both cars are out of production now, but the Lupo 3L became popular here in Denmark due to the mileage and low taxation on it because it is more enviromental correct ..
VW proved a few years ago that they could also make a 2L car (117 mpg), but that ended with only an experimental 2-seater tandem car, for what I remember ..
So it can be done with piston engines, just a question about supply and demand. And as long we got enough oil in the ground, we don't really care, do we? Except getting a longer mileage with today fuelprices ..
- madman
Their sistercompany Audi also made a 3L of their Audi A2 4-seater car ..
Both cars are out of production now, but the Lupo 3L became popular here in Denmark due to the mileage and low taxation on it because it is more enviromental correct ..
VW proved a few years ago that they could also make a 2L car (117 mpg), but that ended with only an experimental 2-seater tandem car, for what I remember ..
So it can be done with piston engines, just a question about supply and demand. And as long we got enough oil in the ground, we don't really care, do we? Except getting a longer mileage with today fuelprices ..
- madman
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Lots of alternative engine links here:http://www.himacresearch.com/links.html
Allen Caggiano was the guy I mentioned above (just remembered!)
Phil
Allen Caggiano was the guy I mentioned above (just remembered!)
Phil
Mad,
I agree with you and would go so far as to do away with petrol fueled vehicles and allow only diesels. The VW Jetta diesel gets 54-55 mpg which is a very good step in the right direction. Add in the German engineering and it is a very good auto.
To show how easy it is to improve the efficency of our diesel Pickup trucks....all one has to do is buy an after market programmer and with a few clicks of a hand held computer device and the engine can be improved.
I did mine and and gained three miles per gallon straight off the bat as well as another 120 shp and 220 foot pounds of torque. The low speed torque was greatly improved. To get more effect all I have to do now is change the air filter system with a bolt on Mod and there will a further increase in both torque and horsepower.
I opted for the "big" truck so I can pull a Caravan or cargo trailer and operate within the MAUW limits for the truck.
I will admit that it is a blast to kick 525 Horses in the butt every now and then.....and use 800 pounds of torque for what it was designed.
Perhaps I am still a borderline "Redneck" in that regard....just as I enjoyed turning loose multiple thousands of horses when flying a Chinook.
I agree with you and would go so far as to do away with petrol fueled vehicles and allow only diesels. The VW Jetta diesel gets 54-55 mpg which is a very good step in the right direction. Add in the German engineering and it is a very good auto.
To show how easy it is to improve the efficency of our diesel Pickup trucks....all one has to do is buy an after market programmer and with a few clicks of a hand held computer device and the engine can be improved.
I did mine and and gained three miles per gallon straight off the bat as well as another 120 shp and 220 foot pounds of torque. The low speed torque was greatly improved. To get more effect all I have to do now is change the air filter system with a bolt on Mod and there will a further increase in both torque and horsepower.
I opted for the "big" truck so I can pull a Caravan or cargo trailer and operate within the MAUW limits for the truck.
I will admit that it is a blast to kick 525 Horses in the butt every now and then.....and use 800 pounds of torque for what it was designed.
Perhaps I am still a borderline "Redneck" in that regard....just as I enjoyed turning loose multiple thousands of horses when flying a Chinook.
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I was raised in the Oil business so here is the truth
Hi,
Wells across from our ranch in Texas were dug in 1923 and the oil free flowed for over 15 years. Then it stopped. No oil so the wells were sold. We did not sell ours.
The next guy put in pump jacks and made millions and then the old stopped so the wells were sold, we did not sell then either.
The next guy put in salt water injection and the oil flowed again and then the oil stopped and the wells were sold again. And of course we did not sell ours.
The next guy put in CO2 injection and the oil is flowing again better than ever. And ours are as well.
We just sit and watch the lawyers, bankers, stock brokers, and book writers get all excited over the times that "there is no oil" Who have never probally seen a oil well other than some picture in some book.
There is enough oil off the west coat of florida to last a long time just the tourist will have to get used to a oil rig in thier maragretta sunset. Of course the Cubans are about to hit it rich when those rigs close to key west start flowing soon. Cubans will be swimming from florida back to Cuba.
Not a bad deal find the oil for about $6 a barrel and sell it for around $60 dollars today is not a bad gig. Please talk some more about us running out of oil. My Grandfather thanks you and my grandchildren will thank you as well.
Wells across from our ranch in Texas were dug in 1923 and the oil free flowed for over 15 years. Then it stopped. No oil so the wells were sold. We did not sell ours.
The next guy put in pump jacks and made millions and then the old stopped so the wells were sold, we did not sell then either.
The next guy put in salt water injection and the oil flowed again and then the oil stopped and the wells were sold again. And of course we did not sell ours.
The next guy put in CO2 injection and the oil is flowing again better than ever. And ours are as well.
We just sit and watch the lawyers, bankers, stock brokers, and book writers get all excited over the times that "there is no oil" Who have never probally seen a oil well other than some picture in some book.
There is enough oil off the west coat of florida to last a long time just the tourist will have to get used to a oil rig in thier maragretta sunset. Of course the Cubans are about to hit it rich when those rigs close to key west start flowing soon. Cubans will be swimming from florida back to Cuba.
Not a bad deal find the oil for about $6 a barrel and sell it for around $60 dollars today is not a bad gig. Please talk some more about us running out of oil. My Grandfather thanks you and my grandchildren will thank you as well.
Paco,
I use the "Bully Dog" system. It plugs into the diagnostic port under the dash...you follow a step by step install program much like any other computer program. It also reads defect codes, calibrates the vehicle computer for changes in tire size and the like. It also allows you to change selections for various things like auto lock, auto shut off of lights....torque curve...fog lights on with Hi-Beams...all sort of things.
Cost is about $550 and works on Ford, Chevy, and Dodge diesel engines.
It is continually updated without charge by going to their web site and logging in.
It is impressive to say the least. The test to confirm the mod is installed properly is to test drive the vehicle by accelerating to third gear...push the go pedal to the floor and see if the rear tires break traction on dry pavement.
It also does it in four wheel drive....must be horrible for the drive train!
I went from 17.8 mpg to 22.9 mpg as measured on consecutive tanks of fuel.
I use the "Bully Dog" system. It plugs into the diagnostic port under the dash...you follow a step by step install program much like any other computer program. It also reads defect codes, calibrates the vehicle computer for changes in tire size and the like. It also allows you to change selections for various things like auto lock, auto shut off of lights....torque curve...fog lights on with Hi-Beams...all sort of things.
Cost is about $550 and works on Ford, Chevy, and Dodge diesel engines.
It is continually updated without charge by going to their web site and logging in.
It is impressive to say the least. The test to confirm the mod is installed properly is to test drive the vehicle by accelerating to third gear...push the go pedal to the floor and see if the rear tires break traction on dry pavement.
It also does it in four wheel drive....must be horrible for the drive train!
I went from 17.8 mpg to 22.9 mpg as measured on consecutive tanks of fuel.
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I do understand that some part of the population need a big-ass truck like on the far-out countryside, but for God sacke put a diesel in it - plain stupid having petrol in a truck ..
The automakers are working on diesels for the light-duty pickups, but the emissions control regulations are a major stumbling block. The light-duty pickups face stricter emissions regulations than the heavy-duty trucks -- far, far stricter than current European emissions control regulations.
The engine emissions in and of themselves aren't the problem, but the sulphur and other crap in the fuel is. Clean diesel is only now coming on the north american market. BTW trucks have lower emission requirements than cars, how come chrysler isn't sticking the liberty diesel into there other vehicles?
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I have no doubt that most of the F250/350 trucks and those who are bigger are diesel. For us Europeans, a F150 (Ford's most sold truck, I believe it is), Nissan Titan and those are still big-ass trucks - and they are mainly gasoline with 5-6 liter engines - and that makes no sence ..
Take the Toyota Tacoma, half-size truck as I believe you call it, only gasoline ver. excist in the US. In Europe, the HiLux is the sistermodel, and that comes with diesel, only diesel in Denmark - why not a diesel in the US, they do excist ?? - but you don't want them I bet, otherwise Toyota would offer it if there were a market in the US for it ..
I think it's a cultural thing, because "diesel is something they put in big semi's, not my car/light truck" ..
I don't know how far technology has come with American diesel engines, but in Europe it is becoming more and more standard equipment to have a life-long-lasting particel filter on the diesel engines in family cars and it is available for trucks and semi's as well. They are talking having them as standard on the citybus'es - and with that filter, they are cleaner than gasoline ..
A quick Google browse of a particel filter manufacture: http://www.purefi.dk/indexen.htm
Doesn't seem like there is any excuse today not to use a diesel engine instead ..
Ohh, another amazing thing about US fuel: You have gasoline graded as low as 87, highest 93 - Holy crap, 93 is the lowest in Europe, some European and Japanese cars can only go with grade 95, otherwise in the long run it can kill that type of high-performance engine. That again shows how much in technology American engines has evolved, that size of the engine makes the power, not finer technology. And thereby how much waste of power there is in American engines when they are running ..
But yes, it looks like you guys are catching up
..
- madman
Take the Toyota Tacoma, half-size truck as I believe you call it, only gasoline ver. excist in the US. In Europe, the HiLux is the sistermodel, and that comes with diesel, only diesel in Denmark - why not a diesel in the US, they do excist ?? - but you don't want them I bet, otherwise Toyota would offer it if there were a market in the US for it ..
I think it's a cultural thing, because "diesel is something they put in big semi's, not my car/light truck" ..
I don't know how far technology has come with American diesel engines, but in Europe it is becoming more and more standard equipment to have a life-long-lasting particel filter on the diesel engines in family cars and it is available for trucks and semi's as well. They are talking having them as standard on the citybus'es - and with that filter, they are cleaner than gasoline ..
A quick Google browse of a particel filter manufacture: http://www.purefi.dk/indexen.htm
Doesn't seem like there is any excuse today not to use a diesel engine instead ..
Ohh, another amazing thing about US fuel: You have gasoline graded as low as 87, highest 93 - Holy crap, 93 is the lowest in Europe, some European and Japanese cars can only go with grade 95, otherwise in the long run it can kill that type of high-performance engine. That again shows how much in technology American engines has evolved, that size of the engine makes the power, not finer technology. And thereby how much waste of power there is in American engines when they are running ..
But yes, it looks like you guys are catching up
..- madman
Last edited by madman1145; 23rd Apr 2007 at 13:32.
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Fuel Tax
I don't plan to add any more special info on alternative fuels ... but it does seem to me that even at £5 a UK gallon, avgas is a very competitive buy. My local pub charges me £20 a gallon for its best beer!
But UK fuel tax is another thing. Our fuel would be incredible value if the tax were waived. (never of course) If I were a fuel retailer, my receipts would all read something like this.
Fuel. 10 gallons (45 lit) £15. 00p
But ........
Tax/vat please £35. 00p
______
I need. £50. 00p
That would make the consumer and the Government wake up!
Best wishes all,
Dennis K
But UK fuel tax is another thing. Our fuel would be incredible value if the tax were waived. (never of course) If I were a fuel retailer, my receipts would all read something like this.
Fuel. 10 gallons (45 lit) £15. 00p
But ........
Tax/vat please £35. 00p
______
I need. £50. 00p
That would make the consumer and the Government wake up!
Best wishes all,
Dennis K
Don't confuse octane rating systems in the US with what you see in Europe or Japan - they aren't the same, most places other than US list the research octane number (RON) while the US lists the average between RON & motor octane number (which is a lot lower). Compare the same numbers & you won't see much difference - your 95 is about the same as our 91.
Biggest problem in many areas for diesel vehicle owners here is buying fuel - rural areas you can always find it but in some urban areas it's pretty scarce. That'll take care of itself if the demand gets there, but for the time being it can be a pain.
Biggest problem in many areas for diesel vehicle owners here is buying fuel - rural areas you can always find it but in some urban areas it's pretty scarce. That'll take care of itself if the demand gets there, but for the time being it can be a pain.
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madman: The main reason that no diesels are available in F150 class pickups is EPA/CARB. It is not the fault of US consumers. It is not the fault of the manufacturers. The problem is the regulators.
In the US, the F150 class pickups must meet the same emissions standards as cars. The F250 and above are subject to much looser restrictions (though even those are getting more strict, which is why Ford came out with the new 6.4l diesel). The US emissions standards are far more stringent than European standards. The diesel Hilux (and the like) WILL NOT meet the US emission standards. As of the 2008 model year, diesel emission standards in the US get even stricter, forcing Mercedes to add urea injection systems to their diesel exhaust treatment system. Particulate filters alone will not meet the 2008 US standards.
There are many of us here in the US who would love to buy a diesel. But we can't because of the regulators. So stop blaming us consumers. Blame EPA, the California Air Resources Board (CARB), and the various environmental pressure groups.
Because it won't meet the 2008 emissions regulations. The diesel engine in the Liberty is old technology. They are putting the MB Bluetec diesel into the Jeep Grand Cherokee. However, once DC sells Chrysler, who knows what will happen to that...
Not true. Even with the ultra-lower sulfur diesel fuel that is now available, the cleanest diesel sold in the US today (Mercedes E320) can't meet the 2008 emissions standards without urea injection.
In the US, the F150 class pickups must meet the same emissions standards as cars. The F250 and above are subject to much looser restrictions (though even those are getting more strict, which is why Ford came out with the new 6.4l diesel). The US emissions standards are far more stringent than European standards. The diesel Hilux (and the like) WILL NOT meet the US emission standards. As of the 2008 model year, diesel emission standards in the US get even stricter, forcing Mercedes to add urea injection systems to their diesel exhaust treatment system. Particulate filters alone will not meet the 2008 US standards.
There are many of us here in the US who would love to buy a diesel. But we can't because of the regulators. So stop blaming us consumers. Blame EPA, the California Air Resources Board (CARB), and the various environmental pressure groups.
how come chrysler isn't sticking the liberty diesel into there other vehicles
The engine emissions in and of themselves aren't the problem, but the sulphur and other crap in the fuel is.
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It really makes me laugh when I see post's claiming that we are not going to run out of oil. We all know that oil will run out!!! It is just "when" that is the debatable bit. It is typical Human selfishness when people say that it is not a problem, Maybe it will not happen in our live's but it is still going to be a problem for someone ie OUR kids or Grandkids or GreatGrankids etc. Unfortuatly we dont tend to care to much about the problems we create for future generations And I am just as guiltly as most considering I fly the least fuel efficent form of transport mainly because I like it.
I personnally think there is plenty of Oil for us to consume as drilling techniques are constantly evolving, After all there was a time when drilling in the north sea was considered a massive jump forward. How long it will last? How long is a piece of string? in 30 years time will we all have 3 cars each and a hover car too? or will we all ride on buses and electric mopeds! who know's but consumption will dictate how long our supply will last.
I also think OPEC countries play it up too to get the best price how many time have we heard that the price of oil is going up because the CEO got caught cheating or doing things to goats or whatever the lousey excuse they normally use is. Maybe I exagerate about the goats but we have all seen the price go up and thought what the hell does that have to do with it!!!
Will this stop 'hell no" they have us by the ball and they know it.
I dont see how we can be at peak production if needed you can always build more rigs ships refinary's etc
Do I think we will run out of Gas for our aircraft? NO! Even when we make the change to better energy sources if they are not suitable for Aircraft I think that Aviation will just use synthetic fuels unstead. If that is the only option avaliable I'm sure they will get more efficient at processing these.
What I do think will be the bigger issue is the effect of pumping all those carbons from crude into the atmosphere. I dont buy the crap that it has no effect at all but what I am not sure is how big the effect will be. Maybe we will all get nicer summers and have great days at the beach or maybe the weather will go AWOL and your nice holiday house will be under 10ft of water and our crop's destroyed. If you know please tell me! I sure hope we get the good summers beacuse if it's the other it will be permanant and we will be f^%&^d.
What can we do about it? NOTHING people dont care enough or know enough to march on the streats and let there goverments know they want change. Goverments well dont get me started but even if they wanted to change things they probably couldn't as they are tied by political ties and world finance which is all conected to oil. And even if MY goverment did it wouldnt matter because no one give's a crap what a little country like NZ thinks anyway.
So in conclusion if we are screwed we are and if we arn't we are not.
Enjoy your flying and dont overthink it!
I personnally think there is plenty of Oil for us to consume as drilling techniques are constantly evolving, After all there was a time when drilling in the north sea was considered a massive jump forward. How long it will last? How long is a piece of string? in 30 years time will we all have 3 cars each and a hover car too? or will we all ride on buses and electric mopeds! who know's but consumption will dictate how long our supply will last.
I also think OPEC countries play it up too to get the best price how many time have we heard that the price of oil is going up because the CEO got caught cheating or doing things to goats or whatever the lousey excuse they normally use is. Maybe I exagerate about the goats but we have all seen the price go up and thought what the hell does that have to do with it!!!
Will this stop 'hell no" they have us by the ball and they know it.
I dont see how we can be at peak production if needed you can always build more rigs ships refinary's etc
Do I think we will run out of Gas for our aircraft? NO! Even when we make the change to better energy sources if they are not suitable for Aircraft I think that Aviation will just use synthetic fuels unstead. If that is the only option avaliable I'm sure they will get more efficient at processing these.
What I do think will be the bigger issue is the effect of pumping all those carbons from crude into the atmosphere. I dont buy the crap that it has no effect at all but what I am not sure is how big the effect will be. Maybe we will all get nicer summers and have great days at the beach or maybe the weather will go AWOL and your nice holiday house will be under 10ft of water and our crop's destroyed. If you know please tell me! I sure hope we get the good summers beacuse if it's the other it will be permanant and we will be f^%&^d.
What can we do about it? NOTHING people dont care enough or know enough to march on the streats and let there goverments know they want change. Goverments well dont get me started but even if they wanted to change things they probably couldn't as they are tied by political ties and world finance which is all conected to oil. And even if MY goverment did it wouldnt matter because no one give's a crap what a little country like NZ thinks anyway.
So in conclusion if we are screwed we are and if we arn't we are not.
Enjoy your flying and dont overthink it!