Would people pay more to train with an expert?
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Would people pay more to train with an expert?
Following on from the 'New instructors - getting that 1st job' thread, here's another aspect to mull over.
In semi retirement, I'm getting into the golf scene. Want to know about golf instructors ... My local young lady professional charges me £18 for thirty minutes one to one instruction.
However, if I were to pop across to Florida to take instruction from the guy who taught, Greg Norman, Nick Faldo and Nick Price, ie David Leadbetter, I'd better be prepared to fork out his standard fee of $10,000 per one day lesson ... and he's fully booked for three months.
So why are we 'crusty old farts' with ten thousand hours instruction time, working for fifty quid an hour?
Just as a conversation starter and best wishes to all the other COFs.
We were 300 hour youngsters once. Just keep your heads down lads and best wishes in getting that first job. I'll be leaving one vacancy quite soon.
Dennis Kenyon.
Split from another thread.
My title, not DennisK's.
Heliport
In semi retirement, I'm getting into the golf scene. Want to know about golf instructors ... My local young lady professional charges me £18 for thirty minutes one to one instruction.
However, if I were to pop across to Florida to take instruction from the guy who taught, Greg Norman, Nick Faldo and Nick Price, ie David Leadbetter, I'd better be prepared to fork out his standard fee of $10,000 per one day lesson ... and he's fully booked for three months.
So why are we 'crusty old farts' with ten thousand hours instruction time, working for fifty quid an hour?
Just as a conversation starter and best wishes to all the other COFs.
We were 300 hour youngsters once. Just keep your heads down lads and best wishes in getting that first job. I'll be leaving one vacancy quite soon.
Dennis Kenyon.
Split from another thread.
My title, not DennisK's.
Heliport
Gatvol
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Go for the Golf Lessons, you get good, you will make more money, buy a Helicopter and get some moron to fly it for you. He can take care of his own ex-wives, mobile home, pickup truck and dog named Boo.
Gatvol
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If your in SA now, get Simon Hobday to give you a few lessons. He can probably outplay you at Golf and no doubt outdrink you with Castles.
he was a hoot while on tour.
he was a hoot while on tour.
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B Sousa: Where in SA is he? I am on Oregon for the moment on a J1 visa :-)
Flying the 300CB but did my privat on a R44.
DennisK: just let me know when and where and I will grab my sponserd clubs and join u :-)
Flying the 300CB but did my privat on a R44.
DennisK: just let me know when and where and I will grab my sponserd clubs and join u :-)
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DennisK
Have you tried charging (say) £100 an hour?
The starting-point is demand and supply. If demand exceeds supply, prices go up. If supply exceeds demand, prices go down. (There are variable factors, obviously.)
So, do you measure demand by demand for FI's generally, or by demand for an FI with something special to offer. (Actual demand, or potential demand with proper marketing.)
If there is demand for a well-known FI's services, he (broadly) has 2 options:
charge the average FI rate and sell more lessons than the average FI;
charge more than the average rate, pitching his fees at a level which keeps him as busy as he wants to be but not so high that there isn't enough demand.
There seems to be little if any difference between the rate for relatively low hours FIs and the rate for FIs with ten thousand hours instruction time and excellent reputations. There could be, and arguably should be.
In the sports world, the more experienced the coach, the higher the charge.
Ladies tell me prices even increase in hairdressing salons depending upon the status of the shampoo artist. (But Ramone/Jason/Nicky is, of course, worth every penny he charges.
)
There are some names with constantly come up in this forum and elsewhere when people ask for recommendations - sometimes for beginners, more often for CPL, IR and FI instructors. eg In the UK, yourself at Shoreham, Mike Smith at HeliAir, Leon Smith and Mike Green at Helicopter Services, Al Gwilt for Gazelle conversions etc
Do top FI's charge more than the average? I doubt it.
Is it because they know people wouldn't, or couldn't afford to, pay the extra, or because they haven't tried?
Do the 'crusty old farts' with thousands of instruction hours do enough to market themselves as being worth more than newbie FIs? I don't think so.
Beginners might not know the 'big names' - but they would with marketing.
Would beginners be prepared to pay more for DennisK and other FIs in his league to teach them?
I don't know. Some would (I would); others might think it's not worth it at the basic stage - wrongly IMHO.
Is David Leadbetter teaching beginners, or coaching already experienced players who want to improve and are willing (and able) to pay for a top coach to teach them?
I'm not suggesting any FI could charge those stratospheric fees because I don't think there would be the demand, but I suspect there'd be people prepared to pay way over the average FI rate for a 'big name' to perfect or advance their handling skills.
eg
FI, qualified 2 yrs, 400 hrs total, 200 hrs instruction @ £40 pr hr.
FI, qualified 30+ yrs, 13000 hrs total, 10000 hrs instruction, former World Freestyle Aerobatic Champion @ £100 pr hr.
or instead, go for a different market ....
CV as above: Master Classes (licenced pilots only) @ £250 pr hr.
Just some random thoughts in response to an interesting question.
FL
So why are we 'crusty old farts' with ten thousand hours instruction time, working for fifty quid an hour?
The starting-point is demand and supply. If demand exceeds supply, prices go up. If supply exceeds demand, prices go down. (There are variable factors, obviously.)
So, do you measure demand by demand for FI's generally, or by demand for an FI with something special to offer. (Actual demand, or potential demand with proper marketing.)
If there is demand for a well-known FI's services, he (broadly) has 2 options:
charge the average FI rate and sell more lessons than the average FI;
charge more than the average rate, pitching his fees at a level which keeps him as busy as he wants to be but not so high that there isn't enough demand.
There seems to be little if any difference between the rate for relatively low hours FIs and the rate for FIs with ten thousand hours instruction time and excellent reputations. There could be, and arguably should be.
In the sports world, the more experienced the coach, the higher the charge.
Ladies tell me prices even increase in hairdressing salons depending upon the status of the shampoo artist. (But Ramone/Jason/Nicky is, of course, worth every penny he charges.
)There are some names with constantly come up in this forum and elsewhere when people ask for recommendations - sometimes for beginners, more often for CPL, IR and FI instructors. eg In the UK, yourself at Shoreham, Mike Smith at HeliAir, Leon Smith and Mike Green at Helicopter Services, Al Gwilt for Gazelle conversions etc
Do top FI's charge more than the average? I doubt it.
Is it because they know people wouldn't, or couldn't afford to, pay the extra, or because they haven't tried?
Do the 'crusty old farts' with thousands of instruction hours do enough to market themselves as being worth more than newbie FIs? I don't think so.
Beginners might not know the 'big names' - but they would with marketing.
Would beginners be prepared to pay more for DennisK and other FIs in his league to teach them?
I don't know. Some would (I would); others might think it's not worth it at the basic stage - wrongly IMHO.
David Leadbetter's standard fee of $10,000 per one day lesson ... and he's fully booked for three months.
I'm not suggesting any FI could charge those stratospheric fees because I don't think there would be the demand, but I suspect there'd be people prepared to pay way over the average FI rate for a 'big name' to perfect or advance their handling skills.
eg
FI, qualified 2 yrs, 400 hrs total, 200 hrs instruction @ £40 pr hr.
FI, qualified 30+ yrs, 13000 hrs total, 10000 hrs instruction, former World Freestyle Aerobatic Champion @ £100 pr hr.
or instead, go for a different market ....
CV as above: Master Classes (licenced pilots only) @ £250 pr hr.
Just some random thoughts in response to an interesting question.
FL
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 19th Mar 2007 at 09:15.
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Dennis,
I am certain that you are well known enough to charge what you see as a fair price for your time.
Reputation is paramount in most professions and the gravitas that tens of thousands of hours of experience carries is something that I am sure there is a market for.
Only one way to find out...
SB
I am certain that you are well known enough to charge what you see as a fair price for your time.
Reputation is paramount in most professions and the gravitas that tens of thousands of hours of experience carries is something that I am sure there is a market for.
Only one way to find out...
SB
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I've deleted a post about FI's earnings/conditions in general.
We have lots of threads on whether FI's in general are underpaid or fairly paid, whether they should be salaried, t's & c's etc.
This thread is about a specific topic:
We have lots of threads on whether FI's in general are underpaid or fairly paid, whether they should be salaried, t's & c's etc.
This thread is about a specific topic:
Top FIs with many thousands of hours training experience.
- Should they charge significantly more than relatively low hours FIs?
- Would people pay a premium for instruction from top FI's as they do in other fields?
- Is there a market for Master Classes of the sort mentioned?
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I totally agree with Flying Lawyer I for one would have paid more for being taught by a FI with more experience ( hope my FI isnt reading this ) my rate for instruction is £100.00 an hour or £450 for a daily rate which I think is reasonable. I asked a student I was teaching recently what he charged out in his profesion as a daily rate and he replied £650.00, its all down to your experience and reputation I suppose.
There are so many instructors out there that havn't been past the confines of the airport that they teach from, if you wanted more experience for flying a Hughes 300 / Enstrom then who better to fly with than Dennisk or a simular experienced instructor like Mike Smith they are definately worth more per hour !!
There are so many instructors out there that havn't been past the confines of the airport that they teach from, if you wanted more experience for flying a Hughes 300 / Enstrom then who better to fly with than Dennisk or a simular experienced instructor like Mike Smith they are definately worth more per hour !!
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High time instructor fees
Thanks for your notes 'Scooter Boy' ... I find this thread intriguing.
Ditto your experience, late last year, I completed a PPL(H) for an overseas client ... his daily fee was around £750 and he wasn't a golf professional!
One of the regular contributors you will see almost daily on our PP forum - has a fee of £1500 and for my pennorth, the man is worth every cent in the right circumstances.
So ... as has been suggested, it is up to we 'Crusty old Farts' to endeavour to crank up our fees, ie to try out the market. I'll investigate and report back for the other COFs.
Can I mention, that every minute I am in the training mode, I'd like to think my pilot is getting some high quality training based on my knowledge and experience.
My records show, that given a suitable student pilot, I seldom needed more than the 45 hour requirement to produce a 'skills test' candidate who had been taken the 'exta mile' to guarantee his/her pass. But for me that does assume an Enstrom/Schweizer trainer ... although I know the other experienced FIs on different marques do exactly the same .
Over to the forum please.
Dennis K
Ditto your experience, late last year, I completed a PPL(H) for an overseas client ... his daily fee was around £750 and he wasn't a golf professional!
One of the regular contributors you will see almost daily on our PP forum - has a fee of £1500 and for my pennorth, the man is worth every cent in the right circumstances.
So ... as has been suggested, it is up to we 'Crusty old Farts' to endeavour to crank up our fees, ie to try out the market. I'll investigate and report back for the other COFs.
Can I mention, that every minute I am in the training mode, I'd like to think my pilot is getting some high quality training based on my knowledge and experience.
My records show, that given a suitable student pilot, I seldom needed more than the 45 hour requirement to produce a 'skills test' candidate who had been taken the 'exta mile' to guarantee his/her pass. But for me that does assume an Enstrom/Schweizer trainer ... although I know the other experienced FIs on different marques do exactly the same .
Over to the forum please.
Dennis K
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Marketing is the key!
Dennis et al,.
As has been mentioned above the key to this is marketing. I also think the marketplace is qualified ppl(h) pilots. I would suggest you devise an 'Advanced flying' course with your own certificate at the end of it.
Marketed in the right way and place you could charge considerably more than a standard hourly rate. If you want more info/help PM me it would be a very interesting project to work on.
Regards
N/S
As has been mentioned above the key to this is marketing. I also think the marketplace is qualified ppl(h) pilots. I would suggest you devise an 'Advanced flying' course with your own certificate at the end of it.
Marketed in the right way and place you could charge considerably more than a standard hourly rate. If you want more info/help PM me it would be a very interesting project to work on.
Regards
N/S
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Needlesplit - I've just done a safety column for a well-known magazine in which I suggest that we need the equivalent of the Institute of Advanced Motorists, with people like Dennis on board.
For non-UK people, it's an organisation that grants an advanced driving test, in which you are examined by a volunteer class 1 police driver. After passing it, and getting the benefit of the examiner's experience, you get preferential insurance rates and better standing in court!
Phil
For non-UK people, it's an organisation that grants an advanced driving test, in which you are examined by a volunteer class 1 police driver. After passing it, and getting the benefit of the examiner's experience, you get preferential insurance rates and better standing in court!
Phil
Gatvol
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Neither Instructors nor Pilots appear to be financially rewarded for experience.
The only thing I have been able to see is that with experience most can go from job to job with less problem.
Some who have used this experience to move into either twins or larger and have reached the top as ATPs do obviously garner a bit more. Just compare Apples and Oranges with other jobs and their requirements and you will find at the back end that although it may be fun and sometimes personally rewarding, your not going to retire rich, if you are able to retire at all.
The only thing I have been able to see is that with experience most can go from job to job with less problem.
Some who have used this experience to move into either twins or larger and have reached the top as ATPs do obviously garner a bit more. Just compare Apples and Oranges with other jobs and their requirements and you will find at the back end that although it may be fun and sometimes personally rewarding, your not going to retire rich, if you are able to retire at all.
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An increased rate SHOULD come with experience, I would admit that their are some more deserved cases than others, but the point still stands. I agree with Dennisk and would be interested to hear results from fishing for a higher rate.
There seem to be many people that go to a flying school, all want the most experienced instructor, but for the same price!
But competetive markets are what they are.
Rushes
There seem to be many people that go to a flying school, all want the most experienced instructor, but for the same price!
But competetive markets are what they are.
Rushes
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Experience = More Expensive!
There seem to be many people that go to a flying school, all want the most experienced instructor, but for the same price!
As far as Advanced Courses go, I know of a PPL(H) holder who recently flew in the S300 with an ex military FI and after witnessing some of the more advanced maneouvres - Dennis knows what I mean! - not generally seen in the PPL(H) syllabus (or even at CPL(H) level probably) expressed the need for a course based on advanced flying techniques - he said he would pay for it! He did not, however, say how much he would pay for it - but if it needs an experienced instructor to teach it then the cost should be appropriate.
The Ferret
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How does one define "expert" in this context?
Hovering AND talking
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How does one define "expert" in this context?
Cheers
Whirls
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Isn't that what droop stops are for? 
HeliFirst
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ten years to go to old fart status
Yes! Yes!!
Listen to the gripes from clients who have not been happy with some established 'schools'. Offer a service that is, I quote, "a thousand times better" and you can charge a higher daily/hourly rate.
I offer an extreme example maybe but my last student would have rather paid my prices from the start than have his last instructor's lack of experience actually 'crash' his helicopter within 8hours of the course.
ps.Come on Dennis are you saying you have only charged 50 quid an hour??
Listen to the gripes from clients who have not been happy with some established 'schools'. Offer a service that is, I quote, "a thousand times better" and you can charge a higher daily/hourly rate.
I offer an extreme example maybe but my last student would have rather paid my prices from the start than have his last instructor's lack of experience actually 'crash' his helicopter within 8hours of the course.
ps.Come on Dennis are you saying you have only charged 50 quid an hour??