Would people pay more to train with an expert?
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Dennis, you are one of a handful of pilots in this country who have carved out a reputation outside your immediate circle. Why on earth would you need or want CAA approval to have people learn at your feet, or official sanction to charge more than the 'going rate' ? Once the proposals have been through the Belgrano, all the fun and useful content will have gone out of it.
Put up a good website, charge whatever you can get away with (at least £100ph), and teach whatever you think is appropriate. The best model for this sort of thing that I know of is on the fixed wing side, where you can learn formation aerobatics in an Extra 300 with an ex Red Arrows pilot. Now how cool is that !
Put up a good website, charge whatever you can get away with (at least £100ph), and teach whatever you think is appropriate. The best model for this sort of thing that I know of is on the fixed wing side, where you can learn formation aerobatics in an Extra 300 with an ex Red Arrows pilot. Now how cool is that !
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Controller -
I agree with most of your advanced training manoeuvres, all good stuff but I do cringe at the thought of practicing stuck controls. Not certain I would be comfortable to include those.
A "Gate" Approach is probably what most of us do sub-consciously. It simply takes the new pilot away from flying a circuit every time he wants to land somewhere.
Provided the landing site recce is satisfactory (and this can be done as part of the manoeuvre), the pilot would enter his final approach through an imaginary gate downwind of the landing point and at about 300 ft off the ground. As the aircraft comes through the gate, ROD should be under control and less than 300fpm, airspeed should be reducing through 30 kts and the aircraft should be within 30 deg of the into wind heading.
Entry into the gate can be made from any direction downwind of the gate so we end up with a kind of funnel shape with the tip of the funnel on the landing point and the helicopter able to approach under the parameters above.
These are simply guidelines, they are not approach parameters written in any rule book. It is a very simple exercise.
I am very pleased to see that we are getting away from display flying manoeuvres when talking about advanced flying. Someone mentioned Advanced Vortex Ring.......fffffffforget it.
I agree with most of your advanced training manoeuvres, all good stuff but I do cringe at the thought of practicing stuck controls. Not certain I would be comfortable to include those.
A "Gate" Approach is probably what most of us do sub-consciously. It simply takes the new pilot away from flying a circuit every time he wants to land somewhere.
Provided the landing site recce is satisfactory (and this can be done as part of the manoeuvre), the pilot would enter his final approach through an imaginary gate downwind of the landing point and at about 300 ft off the ground. As the aircraft comes through the gate, ROD should be under control and less than 300fpm, airspeed should be reducing through 30 kts and the aircraft should be within 30 deg of the into wind heading.
Entry into the gate can be made from any direction downwind of the gate so we end up with a kind of funnel shape with the tip of the funnel on the landing point and the helicopter able to approach under the parameters above.
These are simply guidelines, they are not approach parameters written in any rule book. It is a very simple exercise.
I am very pleased to see that we are getting away from display flying manoeuvres when talking about advanced flying. Someone mentioned Advanced Vortex Ring.......fffffffforget it.
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I hate to suggest this, but it appears to me, and happily so, that we are looking at taking the more interesting parts of the JAA and FAA syllabi and molding them together..... well of a fashion!
Stuck controls seems more practised in the UK
Pinnacles and Confined areas more so in the US
Autos (Fan Stops) on certain phases of the circuit, more UK i think
Low RRPM recovery more so (on the R22) in the US, due to SFAR #73
I certainley think that having the ability to maneouvre an aircraft and milk its RRPM to achieve a particular landing site accuratley is a very important skill to achieve.... i wish i could!
I know there are many to add to the list.
It is also important not to understate the impact that good Ground Instruction and Mentoring have to play in the saftey of a pilot. Learn from someone with the right attitude towards CRM, Decision making, and all those other buzz words and one day it'll be just as important as your handling skills and pay dividends...... I'm sure we've all been there!!
Rgds
Rushes
Stuck controls seems more practised in the UK
Pinnacles and Confined areas more so in the US
Autos (Fan Stops) on certain phases of the circuit, more UK i think
Low RRPM recovery more so (on the R22) in the US, due to SFAR #73
I certainley think that having the ability to maneouvre an aircraft and milk its RRPM to achieve a particular landing site accuratley is a very important skill to achieve.... i wish i could!
I know there are many to add to the list.
It is also important not to understate the impact that good Ground Instruction and Mentoring have to play in the saftey of a pilot. Learn from someone with the right attitude towards CRM, Decision making, and all those other buzz words and one day it'll be just as important as your handling skills and pay dividends...... I'm sure we've all been there!!
Rgds
Rushes
Cool as a moosp
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Another one from the coal face which relates to this thread.
Today I spoke with one of the training/test pilots of one of the major helicopter manufacturers. I told him that I was going to travel to Australia to do some refresher and emergency type training on his manufacturer's turbine single. He said, "Why do you not fly with us, we can offer a full day refresher training, ground school and 1.5 in the air for x$. Is price your problem?"
True, the manufacturers refresher costs more than a flight school in Aus. (A school that I am very satisfied with.) But it did make me think, would I get better value for money by paying more and having a flight test pilot teach me, or would a very good instructor at a good school be sufficient?
I fly often with private pilots who do not consider cost anywhere in their decisions on flying. They want the best, and they will pay for it. They do their PPL on an R44 (like Frank wants) or a turbine. I truly believe that there is a developing market for both ab-intio "boutique" schools for those that have the money and want to say (viz Whirly) " been to Oxbridge" and advanced training from famous instructors.
Come on guys, what would you pay for an hour with Nick Lappos?
Today I spoke with one of the training/test pilots of one of the major helicopter manufacturers. I told him that I was going to travel to Australia to do some refresher and emergency type training on his manufacturer's turbine single. He said, "Why do you not fly with us, we can offer a full day refresher training, ground school and 1.5 in the air for x$. Is price your problem?"
True, the manufacturers refresher costs more than a flight school in Aus. (A school that I am very satisfied with.) But it did make me think, would I get better value for money by paying more and having a flight test pilot teach me, or would a very good instructor at a good school be sufficient?
I fly often with private pilots who do not consider cost anywhere in their decisions on flying. They want the best, and they will pay for it. They do their PPL on an R44 (like Frank wants) or a turbine. I truly believe that there is a developing market for both ab-intio "boutique" schools for those that have the money and want to say (viz Whirly) " been to Oxbridge" and advanced training from famous instructors.
Come on guys, what would you pay for an hour with Nick Lappos?
Avoid imitations
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An hour of what?......... he's just a fixed wing pilot, I heard. 
Anyway, I certainly don't want him showing me his stick displacement.
Only joking, only joking, I think there would be a queue...... at almost any price
Anyway, I certainly don't want him showing me his stick displacement.
Only joking, only joking, I think there would be a queue...... at almost any price
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Rushes: Fair comment. The vortex ring thing was because I said that I had not really felt much difference when my instructor first demonstrated it to me. I wanted to know what it felt like, rather than just watching the VSI. I realise with VR it is more about avoiding the situation in the first place but it would be nice to think that one could recognise the symptoms early.
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Advanced Course Syllabus
This thread is developing nicely!
I am not going to include Mountain Flying and Underslung Load training here because these courses exist already but here is an initial stab at my list for a Helicopter Advanced Course:
Advanced Autorotative PFLs to very specific points.
Simulated engine failures to the ground just outside the HV Curve - say from a high OGE hover.
Deeper into the incipient Vortex Ring State (sorry HiHover it's a good insight!)
Formation flying.
Some Display Maneouvres such as wingovers.
Low level flying including EOLs.
Stuck Pedal and Tail Rotor Failure techniques.
F
I am not going to include Mountain Flying and Underslung Load training here because these courses exist already but here is an initial stab at my list for a Helicopter Advanced Course:
Advanced Autorotative PFLs to very specific points. Simulated engine failures to the ground just outside the HV Curve - say from a high OGE hover. Deeper into the incipient Vortex Ring State (sorry HiHover it's a good insight!) Formation flying. Some Display Maneouvres such as wingovers. Low level flying including EOLs. Stuck Pedal and Tail Rotor Failure techniques.F
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I think it could work,but probably only if it was a compulsary aspect of the PPL course,that the last x number of hours should be with an instructor of a certain level of experience.
Otherwise it just comes down to cost,and for a new pilot the advantage of having that level of experience at hand could be lost.The rate at which the bank account was being drained,however,would be very evident.
Otherwise it just comes down to cost,and for a new pilot the advantage of having that level of experience at hand could be lost.The rate at which the bank account was being drained,however,would be very evident.
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i agree that this 'advanced teaching' would be lost on most PPL students.
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I won't get into the discussion about should we or shouldn't we include "Deeper into the incipient vortex ring" I prefer never to allow the hint of vortex ring through awareness and control of airspeed and ROD. However, if anyone feels it is beneficial rather than just exciting then I would certainly listen to their reasoning.
The Controller makes a very good point, very few PPLs are frequent flyers.
There must be some mileage in tailoring a course to suit individual needs, eg. a course that combines many of the exercises already mentioned but focusses on some rather than others based on the individual's outlook and local environment. In the end, the client is paying and if he wants to do 5 hours of PFLs and EOLs then I'd be quite happy to oblige, rather than give him a standard advanced syllabus containing exercises in which he is uninterested. Having said that, one aim of the course should be IMHO to broaden horizons.
So, who would benefit most from such a course?
I am sure there are several groups of rotary pilots who would benefit immensely, however, those that spring to mind immediately:
The infrequent flyer: The pilot who has not flown more than a few hours in the years since PPL.
The self-improver: The pilot who is taking the modular route to commercial qualification, most likely building hours without supervision or guidance and could do with a quality refresher.
The helicopter owner: Again, flies without supervision or guidance and could do with a quality refresher every now and again.
Who else?? Other than the obvious answer of....Everyone!
I would certainly be prepared to approach insurance companies with a suggested syllabus to try to lower premiums based on the effort the individual owner would be making to improve their flying skills - that has a value.
The Controller makes a very good point, very few PPLs are frequent flyers.
There must be some mileage in tailoring a course to suit individual needs, eg. a course that combines many of the exercises already mentioned but focusses on some rather than others based on the individual's outlook and local environment. In the end, the client is paying and if he wants to do 5 hours of PFLs and EOLs then I'd be quite happy to oblige, rather than give him a standard advanced syllabus containing exercises in which he is uninterested. Having said that, one aim of the course should be IMHO to broaden horizons.
So, who would benefit most from such a course?
I am sure there are several groups of rotary pilots who would benefit immensely, however, those that spring to mind immediately:
The infrequent flyer: The pilot who has not flown more than a few hours in the years since PPL.
The self-improver: The pilot who is taking the modular route to commercial qualification, most likely building hours without supervision or guidance and could do with a quality refresher.
The helicopter owner: Again, flies without supervision or guidance and could do with a quality refresher every now and again.
Who else?? Other than the obvious answer of....Everyone!
I would certainly be prepared to approach insurance companies with a suggested syllabus to try to lower premiums based on the effort the individual owner would be making to improve their flying skills - that has a value.
HeliFirst
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there is always more to learn
To establish any advaced course beyond PPL will make sure the new pilot is aware from the start that there is always more to learn.
The Examiner on annual check has the opportunity to earn his money by not only checking the basics but teaching or demonstating etc to clients request...I try to.
Sadly I tried the Insurance companies about five years ago ..with proof that the better training from specific instructors reduced the risks..yes good idea I was told but not a hope of getting it accepted.
The Examiner on annual check has the opportunity to earn his money by not only checking the basics but teaching or demonstating etc to clients request...I try to.
Sadly I tried the Insurance companies about five years ago ..with proof that the better training from specific instructors reduced the risks..yes good idea I was told but not a hope of getting it accepted.
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5 years ago was still quite close to 9/11 and insurance companies were being very hard-nosed. I have seen a change in their attitudes and there is apparently more competition on the way, this may make it worth approaching them again.
I am in the process of having my own insurance reduced for good behaviour.
I am in the process of having my own insurance reduced for good behaviour.
For what you pay in the UK these days for anything related to Aviation you ought to be attended by a host of experts as we speak.
Hovering AND talking
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Originally Posted by Sassy
you ought to be attended by a host of experts as we speak
Cheers
Whirls
