Kent Police Helicopter
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just reading on rotorhub looks like kent police finally have a decent level of air support via essex asu, just wondering now if essex will drop their name and become some kind of regional asu like the met & surrey did a few years back 
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What will happen if the essex a/c is offline for whatever reason, will this mean cambs or suffolk asu's being tasked to kent.
Last edited by bell222; 8th Apr 2008 at 15:51. Reason: grammar
Well, I'm feeling in Alan Sugar mode, so here goes....
This whole thread is a misnomer! Kent does NOT have a police helicopter. They're buying hours off Essex, as they did off the Met and then Surrey until they ran out of credit: or do I mean credibility?
The Kent approach to an ASU has been serious to the level of entrusting the whole issue to a Sergeant for the past n years. Of course, I'm sure he's very competent.
However, don't blame the Constabulary: despite the present Chief Constable having come from the Met, where surely he must have learned and appreciated the value of Air Support, the Kent Police Authority has singularly failed to resource an ASU over a number of years.
When Kent Police have a permanent aircraft on site, and have their own Observers who know their local 'ground', and not just a portacabin saying 'Kent Police ASU', then I just may, just, become a believer.
This whole thread is a misnomer! Kent does NOT have a police helicopter. They're buying hours off Essex, as they did off the Met and then Surrey until they ran out of credit: or do I mean credibility?
The Kent approach to an ASU has been serious to the level of entrusting the whole issue to a Sergeant for the past n years. Of course, I'm sure he's very competent.
However, don't blame the Constabulary: despite the present Chief Constable having come from the Met, where surely he must have learned and appreciated the value of Air Support, the Kent Police Authority has singularly failed to resource an ASU over a number of years.
When Kent Police have a permanent aircraft on site, and have their own Observers who know their local 'ground', and not just a portacabin saying 'Kent Police ASU', then I just may, just, become a believer.
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idle stop,
I don't disagree, but I suspect that the number of half-baked and and less effective ASUs will increase over the next few years. The people making decisions about Air Suppport are usually ignorant of how it works and what it does and does not do. As others have said previously the decisions are focussed on short-term goals and targets, not effective policing, sadly.
To some extent the UK police aviation community is partly to blame. We have never really taken the trouble to document what we do and what affects our effectiveness. It may be self-evident to us, but it is not us who are in charge.
The news from the NE is really very sad. I hope that someone records how things change when they drop to one aircraft. However, those who have made the decision have every incentive to hide those changes.
When we get spread so thinly we will be consigned to doing missing person searches and photography, with endless pointless transits to jobs that are long gone. I wonder how long the scrotes will take to notice?
I don't disagree, but I suspect that the number of half-baked and and less effective ASUs will increase over the next few years. The people making decisions about Air Suppport are usually ignorant of how it works and what it does and does not do. As others have said previously the decisions are focussed on short-term goals and targets, not effective policing, sadly.
To some extent the UK police aviation community is partly to blame. We have never really taken the trouble to document what we do and what affects our effectiveness. It may be self-evident to us, but it is not us who are in charge.
The news from the NE is really very sad. I hope that someone records how things change when they drop to one aircraft. However, those who have made the decision have every incentive to hide those changes.
When we get spread so thinly we will be consigned to doing missing person searches and photography, with endless pointless transits to jobs that are long gone. I wonder how long the scrotes will take to notice?
Helinut has it on the button! UK Police Aviation used to lead the world both in efficiency and effectiveness. The problem was that it just got on with doing the job quietly.
Then a new breed of Senior Officers arrived who had never worked without air support & did not appreciate what it was like before we had it. Budget cuts from central Govt caused them to start casting about for ways to save money. They saw the air support budget & decided to slash costs. Never mind the results.
Bad times are a coming & by the time they realise their mistake it will be too late!
Tigerfish
Then a new breed of Senior Officers arrived who had never worked without air support & did not appreciate what it was like before we had it. Budget cuts from central Govt caused them to start casting about for ways to save money. They saw the air support budget & decided to slash costs. Never mind the results.
Bad times are a coming & by the time they realise their mistake it will be too late!
Tigerfish
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Kent have indeed entered into a formal agreement with Essex for air support as one of a number of cross boundary service sharing arrangements. Having met quite a few of the senior people in both forces I can say there is a huge willingness to get full air support in both counties as soon as possible but until there is more money this is the best arrangement that can be found.
The Essex, Cambs and Suffolk Consortium have been providing air support to Kent for quite a few years now (amongst others) on a paid per sortie basis so I guess this is the next logical step if full funding for a 'Kent' ASU is still not available.
I think were entering an era of financial constraint that will see more single county ASU's looking to share costs with willing partners or expanding consortium arrangements, and in an odd way is moving towards what we at ASU's have been calling for for a long time, a more 'national or at least Regional Air Support Organisation'
Just my honest opinion
regards to all
The Essex, Cambs and Suffolk Consortium have been providing air support to Kent for quite a few years now (amongst others) on a paid per sortie basis so I guess this is the next logical step if full funding for a 'Kent' ASU is still not available.
I think were entering an era of financial constraint that will see more single county ASU's looking to share costs with willing partners or expanding consortium arrangements, and in an odd way is moving towards what we at ASU's have been calling for for a long time, a more 'national or at least Regional Air Support Organisation'
Just my honest opinion
regards to all
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Then a new breed of Senior Officers arrived who had never worked without air support & did not appreciate what it was like before we had it. Budget cuts from central Govt caused them to start casting about for ways to save money. They saw the air support budget & decided to slash costs. Never mind the results.
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The police service and a team of charity volunteers decided to engage in a competitive boat race. Both teams practiced hard and long to reach their peak performance. On the big day they felt ready.
The charity volunteers won by a mile. Afterward, the police team was discouraged by the loss. Morale sagged. Corporate management decided that the reason for the crushing defeat had to be found, so a consulting firm was hired to investigate the problem and recommended corrective action.
The consultant’s finding: The charity volunteers team had eight people rowing and one person steering; the police team had one person rowing and eight people steering.
After a year of study and millions spent analyzing the problem, the consultant firm concluded that too many people were steering and not enough were rowing on the police team.
So as race day neared again the following year, the police team’s management structure was completely reorganized. The new structure: four steering managers, three area steering managers and a new performance review system for the person rowing the boat to provide work incentive.
The next year, the charity volunteers won by two miles. Humiliated, the police laid off the rower for poor performance and gave the managers a bonus for discovering the problem….
The charity volunteers won by a mile. Afterward, the police team was discouraged by the loss. Morale sagged. Corporate management decided that the reason for the crushing defeat had to be found, so a consulting firm was hired to investigate the problem and recommended corrective action.
The consultant’s finding: The charity volunteers team had eight people rowing and one person steering; the police team had one person rowing and eight people steering.
After a year of study and millions spent analyzing the problem, the consultant firm concluded that too many people were steering and not enough were rowing on the police team.
So as race day neared again the following year, the police team’s management structure was completely reorganized. The new structure: four steering managers, three area steering managers and a new performance review system for the person rowing the boat to provide work incentive.
The next year, the charity volunteers won by two miles. Humiliated, the police laid off the rower for poor performance and gave the managers a bonus for discovering the problem….
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Kent Police Air Support Unit
It was more than 30 years ago now that as a serving cop I did all sorts of flying for 'the job' in crappy machines and with no official budget.
The work I did remains sensitive. However, what I can say is that it resulted in some serious collars being felt.
the surveillance value of a ten bob C150 was incalculable.
At the time I felt I was playing the same role as the pioneers of military aviation who were battling to prove the worth of the aircraft v the horse.
Hampshire Constabularly, under the expert control of Bob Ruprecht, were way ahead with their Air Support Unit and led the way nationaly. I spent some time with them.
Alas, the fatal crash of the Edgley Optica flown by a serving Hants police officer was a major setback and possibly contributed to a decision that aircraft on police business had to be flown by civvie pilots(?).
It seems that even now, the worth of a helicopter - or a fixed wing machine as opposed to nothing - is still woefully underestimated.
'How much? You must be joking! '
Many overseas forces use the R44. Why not go that route if a twin-turbine heli isnt an option?
You can get an R44 with all the bells and whistles 'off the shelf'.
All sorts of ANO exemptions are possible. I found the CAA very supportive at the time - no reason to suspect otherwise these days?.
H
The work I did remains sensitive. However, what I can say is that it resulted in some serious collars being felt.
the surveillance value of a ten bob C150 was incalculable.
At the time I felt I was playing the same role as the pioneers of military aviation who were battling to prove the worth of the aircraft v the horse.
Hampshire Constabularly, under the expert control of Bob Ruprecht, were way ahead with their Air Support Unit and led the way nationaly. I spent some time with them.
Alas, the fatal crash of the Edgley Optica flown by a serving Hants police officer was a major setback and possibly contributed to a decision that aircraft on police business had to be flown by civvie pilots(?).
It seems that even now, the worth of a helicopter - or a fixed wing machine as opposed to nothing - is still woefully underestimated.
'How much? You must be joking! '
Many overseas forces use the R44. Why not go that route if a twin-turbine heli isnt an option?
You can get an R44 with all the bells and whistles 'off the shelf'.
All sorts of ANO exemptions are possible. I found the CAA very supportive at the time - no reason to suspect otherwise these days?.
H
Jackboot,
I suggest that you compare the UK Police accident record against almost anywhere else in the world!
There are approximately 30 UK Police Helicopters in service, they average about 1,000 hrs per year each, - some as much as 1,400 hrs. In all weathers and on very black nights.
I am not one who normally leaps to the defence of the CAA, - but the real truth is that they, and the excellent Pilots and equipment that we insist upon, have kept us safe as well as effective over the years.
I might be persuaded that a modern single turbine MIGHT be suitable for use in the rural patrol envireonment, but never a piston engined machine, and never low over our cities, especially at night.
We have a superb system now, - do not let the accountants spoil it. The results of their stupidity will not take long to surface. With reduced (rapid) air support the criminal will not take long to realise that its open season.
Before you argue, check out those accident statistics.
Tigerfish
I suggest that you compare the UK Police accident record against almost anywhere else in the world!
There are approximately 30 UK Police Helicopters in service, they average about 1,000 hrs per year each, - some as much as 1,400 hrs. In all weathers and on very black nights.
I am not one who normally leaps to the defence of the CAA, - but the real truth is that they, and the excellent Pilots and equipment that we insist upon, have kept us safe as well as effective over the years.
I might be persuaded that a modern single turbine MIGHT be suitable for use in the rural patrol envireonment, but never a piston engined machine, and never low over our cities, especially at night.
We have a superb system now, - do not let the accountants spoil it. The results of their stupidity will not take long to surface. With reduced (rapid) air support the criminal will not take long to realise that its open season.
Before you argue, check out those accident statistics.
Tigerfish
Last edited by tigerfish; 9th Apr 2008 at 21:30.
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Just heard on the BBC news that Essex was providing 24/7 cover for Cambs, Suffolk, Essex and Kent. Some area of operations 
Would that be the "Police Helicopter Eastern Wing" (PHEW) ?
Would that be the "Police Helicopter Eastern Wing" (PHEW) ?
As I understand it;- Essex, Suffolk and Camb's are all part of one mutually supportive consortium. Highly effective, and a well organised use of joint resources. Under the direction of one UEO ( Essex ). I believe that the arrangement with Kent is a separate agreement with Essex. Therefore it does not necessarily follow that if the Essex machine was off line that one of the other two machines would have to be deployed to Kent. I may be wrong on that, but it does seem logical.
I predict that eventually Kent will decide that the only really effective way to join the party is to bring a present!
Ol Grumpy!
AKA Tigerfish
I predict that eventually Kent will decide that the only really effective way to join the party is to bring a present!
Ol Grumpy!
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Kent Police.......Modernising !
Isnt it amazing how one force looks to modernise its service to its region, while another axes an extremely efficient and respected air support unit.
I am talking here the decision to axe one aircraft from the NEASU operation, I do hope the bean counters can still count in the future when the crime starts to adjust due to poor response times.
Lets hope they all get the CV they are looking for , lots of buzz words included on it (axe,chop,cut,modernise,slimmer,leaner,smarter,arsekiss) and all leave the North East for places & careers new !
Merry BUT NOT Down
I am talking here the decision to axe one aircraft from the NEASU operation, I do hope the bean counters can still count in the future when the crime starts to adjust due to poor response times.
Lets hope they all get the CV they are looking for , lots of buzz words included on it (axe,chop,cut,modernise,slimmer,leaner,smarter,arsekiss) and all leave the North East for places & careers new !
Merry BUT NOT Down
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"I might be persuaded that a modern single turbine MIGHT be suitable for use in the rural patrol envireonment, but never a piston engined machine, and never low over"
Ah, here we go again, the myth of turbine reliability.
Turbine engines are no more reliable than a piston, it's just they produce better power/weight ratios.
Many forces over the world use the R44 in a police/ENG/surveillance role.
Ah, here we go again, the myth of turbine reliability.
Turbine engines are no more reliable than a piston, it's just they produce better power/weight ratios.
Many forces over the world use the R44 in a police/ENG/surveillance role.
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Police Helis
Hi all,
It saddens me to see the differing management decisions of police helicopter operators around the country. I also find it odd that a particular heli type is deemed ideal for one county while another operation down the road opts for an alternative type.
Would I be right in thinking that for most regions and the nature of the task, there ought to be one type that best fits most operations.
Now the price thing is coming to the fore.
Around the mid 1970s, I found myself sitting in front of the Police Chief at two or three Police units, doing my sales pitch. First was the famed 'Big G' of the Glascow force where I spent a week on typical 'police ops' with a humble Enstrom. In those days I recall it coped with 95% of the required tasks.
Ditto a year or so later at the Kidlington HQ and by 1975. I was flying a couple of coppers over London out of Battersea. Next it was the Guildford force at Mount Browne where I was still using an Enstrom on aerial observation, missing persons and traffic.
Once the Met got going it became sensible to use the twin, but as I recall it, the cost went skywards and using the Bell 222, was something in the order of six times higher than the Gill Crewdson's Helicopter Hire annual charge for their Enstroms.
So here we are in 2008, when it now seems that the cost factor, accounting and the politics and careers that go with that, are turning the corner and ASUs are in danger of shutting up shop.
Can't we take a leaf from USA? The Pasadena Police have been successfully using the Enstrom now since 1970 and as we all know, other US Police Forces similarly use the MD 500, A Star etc.
I'm not suggesting a wholesale move over to singles, but I take the view that better that as losing valuable police work to our industry is worse.
As we speak the R44 is in regular use over London, and in 35 years on the London Lanes, I know of only two occasions of engine failure. (Dear David Voy will know about one of them!) I also know of two engine failures by the B206. Then there was Bell '222' double engine failure at Lippits Hill a few years ago.
So what am I saying? Where costs are about to scrub an ASU, shouldn't the industry put up a case for a lower cost single? There are better guys than me out there with the engine failure statistics, but where the prime role is aerial observation, a 500/R44/480T etc, could do the job at perhaps one third of the price. Especially if the rowing managers were pensioned off!
Flak helmet on .. all ready to fire out there!
Best wishes to all,
Dennis Kenyon.
It saddens me to see the differing management decisions of police helicopter operators around the country. I also find it odd that a particular heli type is deemed ideal for one county while another operation down the road opts for an alternative type.
Would I be right in thinking that for most regions and the nature of the task, there ought to be one type that best fits most operations.
Now the price thing is coming to the fore.
Around the mid 1970s, I found myself sitting in front of the Police Chief at two or three Police units, doing my sales pitch. First was the famed 'Big G' of the Glascow force where I spent a week on typical 'police ops' with a humble Enstrom. In those days I recall it coped with 95% of the required tasks.
Ditto a year or so later at the Kidlington HQ and by 1975. I was flying a couple of coppers over London out of Battersea. Next it was the Guildford force at Mount Browne where I was still using an Enstrom on aerial observation, missing persons and traffic.
Once the Met got going it became sensible to use the twin, but as I recall it, the cost went skywards and using the Bell 222, was something in the order of six times higher than the Gill Crewdson's Helicopter Hire annual charge for their Enstroms.
So here we are in 2008, when it now seems that the cost factor, accounting and the politics and careers that go with that, are turning the corner and ASUs are in danger of shutting up shop.
Can't we take a leaf from USA? The Pasadena Police have been successfully using the Enstrom now since 1970 and as we all know, other US Police Forces similarly use the MD 500, A Star etc.
I'm not suggesting a wholesale move over to singles, but I take the view that better that as losing valuable police work to our industry is worse.
As we speak the R44 is in regular use over London, and in 35 years on the London Lanes, I know of only two occasions of engine failure. (Dear David Voy will know about one of them!) I also know of two engine failures by the B206. Then there was Bell '222' double engine failure at Lippits Hill a few years ago.
So what am I saying? Where costs are about to scrub an ASU, shouldn't the industry put up a case for a lower cost single? There are better guys than me out there with the engine failure statistics, but where the prime role is aerial observation, a 500/R44/480T etc, could do the job at perhaps one third of the price. Especially if the rowing managers were pensioned off!
Flak helmet on .. all ready to fire out there!
Best wishes to all,
Dennis Kenyon.