R22 Crash Stockport
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StringFellow,
Same here. I was "lucky" to learn in the pre-governor days and so the instinctive reaction to the horn was to lower the lever and open the throttle at the same time.
CF
Same here. I was "lucky" to learn in the pre-governor days and so the instinctive reaction to the horn was to lower the lever and open the throttle at the same time.
CF
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To hark back to the incident I saw, what happened after the horn came on was the AFI P1 dumped the lever,-don't know what happened with the throttle- the horn went off but by then the rate of descent was such that that at the bottom there was not enough room/power/rpm to stop us hitting the ground hard enough to scare the crap out of us. It was all done, horn on to hitting ground in a few seconds. No time to stop and analyse anything. 
Bear in mind if you already have a rate of descent with a lot of power on, dumping the lever makes you drop like a stone.
Opening the throttle without dumping the lever would probably have been a better course of action in this case but I dont know for sure if that would have been enough on its own to recover RPM.
Best to make sure it stays in the green by avoiding the death grip.
Better still, get an Enstrom and you HAVE to watch the RPM...All the time or you die.
Bear in mind if you already have a rate of descent with a lot of power on, dumping the lever makes you drop like a stone.
Opening the throttle without dumping the lever would probably have been a better course of action in this case but I dont know for sure if that would have been enough on its own to recover RPM.
Best to make sure it stays in the green by avoiding the death grip.
Better still, get an Enstrom and you HAVE to watch the RPM...All the time or you die.
Last edited by Gaseous; 26th Jan 2007 at 08:48.
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The first Robbie I flew was an Alpha with no governor. Yes the gov. is a luxury and not a necessity. (Although MS might disagree)
I wasn't suggesting that a predefined sequence of events should not take place, merely that if I am not in the hover and the horn sounds......you instantly lower the lever, then at T+1 sec you establish the cause of the low RRPM, then make the required adjustments according to the cause.
As a student, learning in an throttle assisted aircraft with the low RRPM horn blaring and I know I'm not over gripping the throttle, with potentially high (and increasing) blade pitch (coming the hover) with it's associated accelerated rpm decay, I (as a student) would probably revert back to what I've been taught time and time again.....Lower the lever, get back the RRPM, sort your the problem....
I wasn't suggesting that a predefined sequence of events should not take place, merely that if I am not in the hover and the horn sounds......you instantly lower the lever, then at T+1 sec you establish the cause of the low RRPM, then make the required adjustments according to the cause.
As a student, learning in an throttle assisted aircraft with the low RRPM horn blaring and I know I'm not over gripping the throttle, with potentially high (and increasing) blade pitch (coming the hover) with it's associated accelerated rpm decay, I (as a student) would probably revert back to what I've been taught time and time again.....Lower the lever, get back the RRPM, sort your the problem....
R22BetaII POH, Section 3 (Emergency Procedures), pg 10:
LOW RPM HORN & CAUTION LIGHT
A horn and an illuminated caution light indicate that rotor RPM may be below safe limits. To restore RPM, immediately roll throttle on, lower collective and, in forward flight, apply aft cyclic. The horn and caution light are disabled when collective is full down.
Looks pretty conclusive to me. In an R22 when the horn comes on, the drill is to open the throttle THEN lower the lever.
LOW RPM HORN & CAUTION LIGHT
A horn and an illuminated caution light indicate that rotor RPM may be below safe limits. To restore RPM, immediately roll throttle on, lower collective and, in forward flight, apply aft cyclic. The horn and caution light are disabled when collective is full down.
Looks pretty conclusive to me. In an R22 when the horn comes on, the drill is to open the throttle THEN lower the lever.
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B73. Absolutely correct.
What I outlined above is what happens when the pilot screws it up. Yes pilot error (gasp - it does happen)
Hopefully no one else will experience this. (fat chance)
What I outlined above is what happens when the pilot screws it up. Yes pilot error (gasp - it does happen)
Hopefully no one else will experience this. (fat chance)
The Original Whirly
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In the R22 Safety Course, which I did (in the UK) soon after getting my PPL(H), was taught that when the horn goes off you open the throttle, then (or at the same time) lower the lever. We were told that far more accidents were caused by pilots overriding the governor and throwing the helicopter into autorotation and getting it wrong, than by real engine failures. So I teach this way too. And I really like InducedDrag's idea. Because unless you practise it, you never know how you'll react to these things. And he's not preventing them overriding the governor; he's showing them what to do should it occur. Good idea.
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Thinking about this some more: another (or maybe the main) reason for leading with the throttle to over-ride the correlator in a low RPM situation is to stop the butterfly valve closing completely due to carb ice (which of course could be the reason for the low RPM in the first place).
If you just lower the lever and the correlator does it's thing - closing the butterfly valve - you may be about to shut your engine off as the area surrounding the valve may be much smaller than it should be...
If you just lower the lever and the correlator does it's thing - closing the butterfly valve - you may be about to shut your engine off as the area surrounding the valve may be much smaller than it should be...
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I never suggested the two or more operations could not happen at the same time! - Turning and Lowering.
But it was stated, with apparent astonishment, that when a student heard the LRRPM horn, he lowered the collective, period!
R22 POH definitely does not state that you roll on the throttle, then wait to lower the lever. It is assumed the pilot would consider this a single combine action.
As Whirlybird writes, on the safety course they may allow (as a qualified pilot, not a potentially pre-solo PPL student) you the option to increase throttle, then after that long second, lower the lever. But this is almost always practiced/demonstrated at 1000' + and 70kts straight and level, never at 20' agl with sub 45hr student! And is cautioned against. (The two part manoeuvre and delay, not the demonstration).
But it was stated, with apparent astonishment, that when a student heard the LRRPM horn, he lowered the collective, period!
R22 POH definitely does not state that you roll on the throttle, then wait to lower the lever. It is assumed the pilot would consider this a single combine action.
As Whirlybird writes, on the safety course they may allow (as a qualified pilot, not a potentially pre-solo PPL student) you the option to increase throttle, then after that long second, lower the lever. But this is almost always practiced/demonstrated at 1000' + and 70kts straight and level, never at 20' agl with sub 45hr student! And is cautioned against. (The two part manoeuvre and delay, not the demonstration).
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UwantME2landWHERE! - I absolutely agree that the rolling on of throttle and lowering of the lever should be considered a single and combined action to get your RPM back. Apologies if you have gotten the impression I have been trying to correct you or anything, but it's not so! I've just been stating what I was taught and kind of thinking/remembering out loud for the reasons why!
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Dual controls
I operate an R44.
My partner has done 10 hours training and is quite capable of flying and landing the thing if anything should happen to me. With the controls out, everyone dies. A no brainer for me.
I'm the captain of the aircraft, its my decision whether to take them out or not. My simple test is this - If they will be of no use to the passenger in the event of my incapacitation, they come out. My call always.
Hairyplane
My partner has done 10 hours training and is quite capable of flying and landing the thing if anything should happen to me. With the controls out, everyone dies. A no brainer for me.
I'm the captain of the aircraft, its my decision whether to take them out or not. My simple test is this - If they will be of no use to the passenger in the event of my incapacitation, they come out. My call always.
Hairyplane
"Removable controls should be removed if person in forward left seat is not a rated helicopter pilot."
Out of interest, which other bits of the POH do you choose to ignore?
I understand your reasoning but she's not a 'rated helicopter pilot', I'm afraid.
Robinson are very specific about this, and for good reason.
The Original Whirly
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I'm with Hairyplane on this. I know several schools that do Left Seat Awareness Training, for partners or regular passengers - the equivalent of the f/w Safety Pilot course. It seems sensible that were the pilot to have a heart attack or similar, the passenger could land the helicopter...rather than let them both die!!!!
Suppose you carry this to its logical conclusion. Suppose I, a helicopter instructor, let my licence lapse for some reason, and go flying with Hairyplane. Should he still remove the second set of controls?
My feeling is that common sense has a part to play here, no matter what anyone says.
Suppose you carry this to its logical conclusion. Suppose I, a helicopter instructor, let my licence lapse for some reason, and go flying with Hairyplane. Should he still remove the second set of controls?
My feeling is that common sense has a part to play here, no matter what anyone says.
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InducedDrag;
"If they do anything...some try to lower the collective!!! At the bottom of the approach...."
What else do you think the student would do....!
Also, I can't quite understand how you locking the throttle teaches them not to grip the throttle overly tight?
"If they do anything...some try to lower the collective!!! At the bottom of the approach...."
What else do you think the student would do....!
Also, I can't quite understand how you locking the throttle teaches them not to grip the throttle overly tight?
My comment..."If they do anything, they lower the collective" shows how wrong their reaction can be. Just lowering the collective (in a robbie) will do NOTHING....if not make the situation WORSE. The correlator will roll the throttle down as you lower the collective. You MUST roll on throttle.
The reason I am locking the throttle is so I can overide the gov. and get them in a low RPM situation. The gov and derating work so well, the student will never see this on their own. (unless there is a problem of some sort)....Especially since I fly out of an airport at 680'.
I have found that when practicing low RPM recognition and recovery during flight training, most of the time the student will feel the instructor rolling off the throttle and are not at all surprised when the horn goes off. They do just as they are taught and roll throttle up and lower the collective.
However I have found when they are surprised and not expecting it, they most often times freeze and dont react at all, or they only lower the collective.
I surprise them by setting them up on a confined area approach so their attention is focused on a task.
The key is that they do not feel the throttle roll down. You can do this without them knowing by waiting until they lower power to start the approach. The correlator will roll the throttle down. THEN the instructor will freeze the throttle by gripping it half on and half off the grip. The student does not feel anything.
As they start adding collective at the bottom of the approach the throttle is not allowed to open and the horn will go off. The student is so focused on the confined approach that they have no idea.
Do this and watch their reaction. Most will NOT do the right thing.
It is a fairly real world example of a situation that could happen as well.....such as departing at gross and landing at a destination at a very high DA. You may come in on an approach and have the horn go off. The throttle may be wide open but you are out of the derating.
In this situation you must roll on throttle (or in this case keep it wide open) as you lower the collective or you will not get the RPM back. The correlator will roll the throttle down....
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POH
Which other parts of the POH do I choose to ignore?
There are more you will be horrified to hear.
As well as deciding to improve my passengers chances of survival in the event of my sudden incapacitation, I also ignore the fuel minima and flight in turbulence guidelines. Mine are much more conservative.
Leaving the pax controls in when the seat is occupied by somebody who can fly it ( licenced or otherwise - my judgement), carting a bit more gas and rarely flying within 100lbs of MAUW.... I should have my licence torn up.
I'll argue till the cows come home that the simplistic, all-encompassing product liability-compliant 'dont do it' statement is wrong in cases such as mine. Do what they think the lawyers will want you to do rather than apply some basic common sense may be fine for you but not for me.
To deny it is to state also that any pilot safety course is not only a waste of time but dangerous.
Best that every heli school in the country stops offering them.....? Clearly so in your argument.
Hairyplane.
There are more you will be horrified to hear.
As well as deciding to improve my passengers chances of survival in the event of my sudden incapacitation, I also ignore the fuel minima and flight in turbulence guidelines. Mine are much more conservative.
Leaving the pax controls in when the seat is occupied by somebody who can fly it ( licenced or otherwise - my judgement), carting a bit more gas and rarely flying within 100lbs of MAUW.... I should have my licence torn up.
I'll argue till the cows come home that the simplistic, all-encompassing product liability-compliant 'dont do it' statement is wrong in cases such as mine. Do what they think the lawyers will want you to do rather than apply some basic common sense may be fine for you but not for me.
To deny it is to state also that any pilot safety course is not only a waste of time but dangerous.
Best that every heli school in the country stops offering them.....?
Clearly so in your argument.Hairyplane.
Avoid imitations
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As far as all the flight manuals I've seen are concerned, the word "should" does not mean that the action or advice is mandatory.
The words "shall" or "must" are generally used to indicate mandatory actions or advice.
The words "shall" or "must" are generally used to indicate mandatory actions or advice.
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Couldn't have put it better myself
Is everybody flying their Robinsons in Nomex suits?
I don't think so.
Good on your wife Mr Hairyplane for having the gumption to learn some basic handling. I hope she never has to take over from you.
My Mrs (when I can coax her in to my R44 - usually by promising to fund a shopping trip) will only sit in the back (like the queen) - she thinks she is safer in the event of an accident - figure that one out!
SB
Bravo 73 "What other parts of the POH etc"
Was once on a powerboat when we went over the wake of another boat and captain was knocked over, banged his head and passed out. I leant over, took control of the twin throttles and pulled them back, while steering the boat away from some marker bhoy we were about to hit. I then called the coast guard on the radio. No qualifications for the boat or the radio.....just the sensible thing to do. Really Bravo you are quite incorrect here, different if you are giving someone their first ride in the heli but your wife who flies with you all the time and has 10 hours under her belt. My motto is give yourself evey possible chance......you really must have an ugly wife Bravo (Joke)
(Joke)
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RATTLE
We are not making out when and why these incidents happen or who if anyone is to blame, But if we can all pick up the relavant reports from the AAIB when they are published and hopefully learn where others have fallen then hopefully we can pick up a few pointers to help us all in our daily flying
We are not making out when and why these incidents happen or who if anyone is to blame, But if we can all pick up the relavant reports from the AAIB when they are published and hopefully learn where others have fallen then hopefully we can pick up a few pointers to help us all in our daily flying
"Learn from the mistakes of others, 'cos you sure as hell won't live long enough to make them all yourself" Springs to mind.
