R22 Crash Stockport
Sorry for snapping, MD900. No hard feelings meant. I guess that I can bite if poked with a sharp enough stick...! 
Just to qualify my original comment: these 2 situations (Stockport R22 and the incapacitation of the PIC on the Continental flight) have shown me that I'd rather have the duals installed than not. Then at least there is the option to switch control, IF (and only if) the situation warrants it.
Just to qualify my original comment: these 2 situations (Stockport R22 and the incapacitation of the PIC on the Continental flight) have shown me that I'd rather have the duals installed than not. Then at least there is the option to switch control, IF (and only if) the situation warrants it.
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Bravo - I also believe there is a legal requirement to remove the duals. Don't recall it being in the RFM, more likely to be in FCL 2.
At the last school I worked at the policy was that unless the person occupying the P2 seat was rated on type, currently licensed and current on type then the duals came out. That said with somebody less experienced acting as P1 I'd want the duals left in.
Glad everybody is ok. A few possible explanations (none that I'll air pre investigation) but feel certain some learning points will come from the AAIB report.
At the last school I worked at the policy was that unless the person occupying the P2 seat was rated on type, currently licensed and current on type then the duals came out. That said with somebody less experienced acting as P1 I'd want the duals left in.
Glad everybody is ok. A few possible explanations (none that I'll air pre investigation) but feel certain some learning points will come from the AAIB report.
Last edited by Flingingwings; 26th Jan 2007 at 10:02.
Crazy Scandihooligan
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Flingingwings
Check your PM.
Bravo73
No worries. Good healthy debates are what this Forum is all about.
Regards
MD
Check your PM.
Bravo73
No worries. Good healthy debates are what this Forum is all about.
Regards
MD
Blimey, I'm flattered. You ex-FAST boys sure do stick together, eh? 
I'll get the page number tomorrow. Unless anybody's got the POH to hand?
See my earlier post. But it's page 4-5 in both R22BII and R44RavenII POHs.
A very sensible policy, IMHO. IIRC, the POH requirement came about as a result of the tragic accident near Leamington Spa a few years ago involving a son and his father taking photographs. I can try to dig out the AAIB report if anybody wants to see it.
Amen to that!
MD900 - Dang. I wish there was a 'shake hands' smiley!
.
See my earlier post. But it's page 4-5 in both R22BII and R44RavenII POHs.
MD900 - Dang. I wish there was a 'shake hands' smiley!
.
Last edited by Bravo73; 25th Jan 2007 at 09:32. Reason: Added Robinson POH page reference
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As an ex R22 FI,
my questions are these:-
1/. fbk660, You say you are high time R22. How high does that mean?
2/. If you have high hours in an R22, was it only the fact you probably didn't want to say something to the owner about his piloting skills that stopped you remarking on a 150' hover, 2pob and some fuel.
3/. Out of interest, would you be prepared to state your weight? I already have a good idea of MP's weight. and fuel onboard?
I am not trying to dig holes for people here, but 3 accidents in R22's this year so far is going to really hit R22 owners hard in insurance.
my questions are these:-
1/. fbk660, You say you are high time R22. How high does that mean?
2/. If you have high hours in an R22, was it only the fact you probably didn't want to say something to the owner about his piloting skills that stopped you remarking on a 150' hover, 2pob and some fuel.
3/. Out of interest, would you be prepared to state your weight? I already have a good idea of MP's weight. and fuel onboard?
I am not trying to dig holes for people here, but 3 accidents in R22's this year so far is going to really hit R22 owners hard in insurance.
Any chance of the answers to these questions, just to enlighten us slightly.
You say you are high time R22. There is only one maybe two high time robbo pilots in your area. where did you learn
Someone mentioned 150ft hover over pitching even with two fatties on board and full fuel an R22 will hover easily at 150ft. Are you sure you were into wind. Could this pitching / yawing be the start of vortex?
Lefts face it most high time R22 pilots are instructors and would see this sort of thing coming the day before, were you alsleep?
The main thing you both got out unhurt well done. Better look next time
I think Gaseous has it spot on. Seen it myself actually but lucky enough to have enough height to get out of it. Minimum time CPL sitting next to me as P1. I was along for the ride and duals were in. Approaching confined area for practice and P1 didn't realise we were actually coming in downwind! I left it late as I could risk without putting us at too much risk hoping he'd notice. Took control with those immortal words 'I have....'
If you put 2 average size guys (12.5st+ or 168lbs+ x 2 =350lbs+ )in an R22 with fuel, you've got nothing really in reserve power wise.
I know of instructors flying R22's who have to be at least 17st. Not only are they flying illegally but with another average guy onboard, they can't really fly anywhere without less than 5gals onboard. Wish I could do something about it! Too many people getting hurt in R22's and too many crashing.
If you put 2 average size guys (12.5st+ or 168lbs+ x 2 =350lbs+ )in an R22 with fuel, you've got nothing really in reserve power wise.
I know of instructors flying R22's who have to be at least 17st. Not only are they flying illegally but with another average guy onboard, they can't really fly anywhere without less than 5gals onboard. Wish I could do something about it! Too many people getting hurt in R22's and too many crashing.
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Bravo73
That AAIB report would make interesting reading if you can get hold if it.
Shake hands smiley would work, probably one of the more needed icons on this forum
MD
That AAIB report would make interesting reading if you can get hold if it.
Shake hands smiley would work, probably one of the more needed icons on this forum
MD
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I dont think AAIB will be to interested, no injuries etc and its a long way from Farnborough will they? I think you will find the report will consist of the pilots / passengers account of things
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Avoid imitations
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After reading some of the responses on this thread I'm never going to ride in a car with only one steering wheel. 
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(BTW, there are 89, so far...)But I found it.
Makes for depressing reading though. 
The Safety Recommendation at the end is particularly pertinent to this discussion:http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...pdf_026168.pdf
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Congrats on getting yourselves out of that one.
I'm only a low time pilot, but on the few times I have flown with another pilot, the dual controls are always in, and I have had an explicit conversation before getting in the helicopter about who does what in an emergency.
e.g we would agree that if he's an instructor, and says 'I have control' at any time in an emergency or otherwise (short of him being obviously mad), I let go, do radio, configure switches if necessary; if the other pilot is the same hours as me, the pilot currently flying handles the controls, pnf does radio, switches. Also covers the single dissenting voice on any situation or manoeuver.
These things need to be agreed in advance! Finally, as pilot flying and in particular after reading what has happened here, I would now consider myself negligent in not fitting the dual controls where the passenger was a pilot, simply on safety grounds unless there's an obvious reason not to fit them.
BW
I'm only a low time pilot, but on the few times I have flown with another pilot, the dual controls are always in, and I have had an explicit conversation before getting in the helicopter about who does what in an emergency.
e.g we would agree that if he's an instructor, and says 'I have control' at any time in an emergency or otherwise (short of him being obviously mad), I let go, do radio, configure switches if necessary; if the other pilot is the same hours as me, the pilot currently flying handles the controls, pnf does radio, switches. Also covers the single dissenting voice on any situation or manoeuver.
These things need to be agreed in advance! Finally, as pilot flying and in particular after reading what has happened here, I would now consider myself negligent in not fitting the dual controls where the passenger was a pilot, simply on safety grounds unless there's an obvious reason not to fit them.
BW
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Having "an explicit conversation.....about who does what in an emergency."
prior to getting in, is one thing.
What actually happens in the cockpit when the proverbial hits the fan, may be something completely different!
…….if I write anymore, I will end up completely contradicting my earlier post...!
prior to getting in, is one thing.
What actually happens in the cockpit when the proverbial hits the fan, may be something completely different!
…….if I write anymore, I will end up completely contradicting my earlier post...!
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fbk660
Any chance of the answers to these questions, just to enlighten us slightly.
You say you are high time R22. There is only one maybe two high time robbo pilots in your area. where did you learn
Someone mentioned 150ft hover over pitching even with two fatties on board and full fuel an R22 will hover easily at 150ft. Are you sure you were into wind. Could this pitching / yawing be the start of vortex?
Lefts face it most high time R22 pilots are instructors and would see this sort of thing coming the day before, were you alsleep?
The main thing you both got out unhurt well done. Better look next time
Any chance of the answers to these questions, just to enlighten us slightly.
You say you are high time R22. There is only one maybe two high time robbo pilots in your area. where did you learn
Someone mentioned 150ft hover over pitching even with two fatties on board and full fuel an R22 will hover easily at 150ft. Are you sure you were into wind. Could this pitching / yawing be the start of vortex?
Lefts face it most high time R22 pilots are instructors and would see this sort of thing coming the day before, were you alsleep?
The main thing you both got out unhurt well done. Better look next time
The cat with only 8 lives is reading on again...the thoughts regarding duals are taken on board....
As for the questions from Cyclic Flare, as follows.
You know MP and his capabilities, but please remember that this all happened in under a second, in hind sight, and having all day to think about it, I still couldn't have pre-emptied the situation! It happen too fast! MP is a good friend and an experienced pilot and has my complete trust.
As for the conclusion to the accident, no matter how everybody tries to work it out, I was SAT their and I still don't know, but hey theorys are fantastic!
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Helimutt, Thanks.
I was discussing this with another Robbo pilot today with reference to freezing on the throttle grip and overriding the governor. He too has experienced this.
I think the governor is so good on the Robbo that it makes pilots a little complacent about RPM as the aircraft will generally look after it for them - except when they are loaded up and have a death grip on the lever.
Robbo pilots certainly seem to struggle when put in a manual throttle aircraft for the first few times. In my experience they just don't seem to see the RPM gauge unless doing autos.
I was discussing this with another Robbo pilot today with reference to freezing on the throttle grip and overriding the governor. He too has experienced this.
I think the governor is so good on the Robbo that it makes pilots a little complacent about RPM as the aircraft will generally look after it for them - except when they are loaded up and have a death grip on the lever.
Robbo pilots certainly seem to struggle when put in a manual throttle aircraft for the first few times. In my experience they just don't seem to see the RPM gauge unless doing autos.
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I also instruct in R22's and 44's. This is real common event. It seems to happen at least once in every student. It is usually at the end of an approach and they are death gripping so hard that they dont let the throttle advance as the collective is raised. The correlator will do most of the work if you let it.
I actually do this on purpose to my students to make them aware of this. I set them up for a confined area approach so they have their attention focused.
When they start the approach and lower power, I tense up on the throttle so it will not roll up when they add the power back in. (This way, I dont have to roll off power and they wont be tipped off to what is going on before the horn goes off!
)As they come in on the approach they raise the collective, and the rpm starts going down. The horn usually goes off and most just freeze. Not one has ever rolled the throttle up on the first time!. If they do anything...some try to lower the collective!!!At the bottom of the approach....At 15-20'
. I will recover and explain what happened and the proper correction is to try to add throttle first.
(Be careful on the recovery, because the blades are pitched high and if you just let the gov recover, the MP will blow through the roof. You have to roll it up slow and lower the collective down as you do this under the pilot's control.)
By the second or third time, the student will have this down pat. I always teach this before I solo a student. It is real easy to picture this scenario happening when they are stressed.
Like some have said....the gov can sometimes be too good. Instructors need to fully verse their students on how to fly when things AREN'T working right!
I have also seen some pilots/students with bad habits like holding the grip further down the collective so part of their had is off the foam and part is on the actual tube of the collective. This is a recipe for disaster. When they tense up, it stops any throttle movement.
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InducedDrag;
"If they do anything...some try to lower the collective!!! At the bottom of the approach...."
You are no doubt a qualified and highly experienced Robbo instructor, so just out of interest,
What else do you think the student would do....!
It is drummed into every pilot who flies a R22, the instant you hear the horn, lower the level, (unless in the hover - and certainly not any higher than 15' -20' !) attempt to regain RRPM, THEN try and find out what the problem is. And this is said time and time again.
Also, I can't quite understand how you locking the throttle teaches them not to grip the throttle overly tight?
All you are actually demonstrating is another scenario that causes low RRPM, a teaching in it's self, but not the one you are attempting.
In fact, this reiterates my opinion why duals should always be removed! It stops people playing...!
"If they do anything...some try to lower the collective!!! At the bottom of the approach...."
You are no doubt a qualified and highly experienced Robbo instructor, so just out of interest,
What else do you think the student would do....!
It is drummed into every pilot who flies a R22, the instant you hear the horn, lower the level, (unless in the hover - and certainly not any higher than 15' -20' !) attempt to regain RRPM, THEN try and find out what the problem is. And this is said time and time again.
Also, I can't quite understand how you locking the throttle teaches them not to grip the throttle overly tight?
All you are actually demonstrating is another scenario that causes low RRPM, a teaching in it's self, but not the one you are attempting.
In fact, this reiterates my opinion why duals should always be removed! It stops people playing...!
Last edited by UwantME2landWHERE!; 26th Jan 2007 at 06:56.
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It was drummed into me to lower the lever but lead with the throttle in a low RPM situation. If you only lower the lever the correlator is reducing power just when you need it...