Alcohol and Pilots
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G'day asara
Let's see where we've got so far -
We also need to bear in mind:
ie 22 alcohol-related incidents in how many hundreds of thousands (or millions) of flights in the 31 years?
You refuse to believe?
There's not much point in a discussion if you aren't prepared to approach it with an open mind, free of preconceived notions.
Even assuming for the purpose of discussion that more pilots have flown with alcohol in their systems over that 31 year period than have been detected:
Where is the evidence that they are crashing in consequence?
Or causing incidents falling short of an accident?
ie Where is your evidence that alcohol is a flight safety problem in the aviation industry?
I based my assertion on a knowledge of the stats, and two decades dealing professionally with aviation accidents/incidents.
Just out of interest, what's your basis for your assertion, and your wish to see "Australia, bring on random drug and alcohol testing."?
FL
BTW, I referred to professional pilots because you referred to the aviation industry. My comments apply equally to private pilots.
Let's see where we've got so far -
- You said: "Australia, bring on random drug and alcohol testing."
- You were concerned at (doubted the accuracy of) my response: ".......... I've seen no evidence that it is or ever has been a flight safety problem."
- So, you checked the ATSB website and found a study, the specific purpose of which was to determine the prevalence and nature of drug and alcohol-related accidents and incidents in Australian civil aviation.
- The study found that, in just over 31 years:
- there were only 22 alcohol-related incidents
- drug (incl prescription drugs and over-the-counter medications ) and alcohol events accounted for only 0.02 per cent of all the occurrences listed on the ATSB's database, and for only 0.4 per cent of all accidents.
- Because the evidence doesn't support (or, more accurately, demolishes) your preconceived notion (hunch?), you:
- assume it cannot be correct
- question the study's methodology.
- suggest that either blood/alchol tests may not be routinely performed following an accident or, if they are, they are performed when the pilots' blood/alchol level "no longer becomes a factor." (Please correct me if I'm wrong but, I take it the last point means you're assuming it would have been, at least in some instances, if the test had been performed earlier. ie You're trying to find some reason for your hunch being correct and the study's findings flawed.)
We also need to bear in mind:
- that not all accidents/incidents are a result of pilot error. (The study doesn't appear to have differentiated.)
- that, even if alcohol is found in a pilot's system following a 'pilot error' accident/incident, it does not necessarily follow that alcohol either caused or contributed to the error.
ie 22 alcohol-related incidents in how many hundreds of thousands (or millions) of flights in the 31 years?
With so many Alcohol related road accidents and other acts of stupidity I refuse to believe that alcohol cannot be a problem in the aviation industry.
- Which? Road accidents caused or contributed to by a driver's ability being impaired by alcohol? Or other acts of driver stupidity generally?
- If you think the degree of care and responsibility exhibited by professional pilots embarking upon a flight is no better than the degree of care and responsibility exhibited by drivers before driving, I can only assume you either don't know many professional pilots or, if you do, you move in very odd circles.
You refuse to believe?
There's not much point in a discussion if you aren't prepared to approach it with an open mind, free of preconceived notions.
Even assuming for the purpose of discussion that more pilots have flown with alcohol in their systems over that 31 year period than have been detected:
Where is the evidence that they are crashing in consequence?
Or causing incidents falling short of an accident?
ie Where is your evidence that alcohol is a flight safety problem in the aviation industry?
I based my assertion on a knowledge of the stats, and two decades dealing professionally with aviation accidents/incidents.
Just out of interest, what's your basis for your assertion, and your wish to see "Australia, bring on random drug and alcohol testing."?
FL
BTW, I referred to professional pilots because you referred to the aviation industry. My comments apply equally to private pilots.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 17th Dec 2006 at 20:00.
Cool as a moosp
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Thank you FL for bringing the subject back to rational and empirically based discussion rather than the emotive stuff that is so often seen when the words, “Pilot” and, “Alcohol” appear in the same sentence.
Asara has missed his vocation and would be better employed by a UK tabloid or a German picture weekly. He has a tenuous grasp of the situation.
There is massive evidence that as a cause of aircraft accidents, flown by professional pilots operating under an AOC or FAA regulatory Part, alcohol consumption is so inconsequential as to be statistically irrelevant.
The resources that are already put into alcohol abuse of pilots would save more lives if it was redirected into fatigue issues, maintenance oversight and operational discipline.
There is no problem about professional pilots and alcohol from a flight safety point of view. In a multi crew environment it is detected by the other crew. The self policing works. However from a socially divisive, media driven aspect, it is becoming a nuisance.
I am appalled that even pilots themselves suggest that random testing should be brought into aviation. Do you honestly believe that your profession is so degraded that you need a jobsworth to tell you if you are competent?
Asara has missed his vocation and would be better employed by a UK tabloid or a German picture weekly. He has a tenuous grasp of the situation.
There is massive evidence that as a cause of aircraft accidents, flown by professional pilots operating under an AOC or FAA regulatory Part, alcohol consumption is so inconsequential as to be statistically irrelevant.
The resources that are already put into alcohol abuse of pilots would save more lives if it was redirected into fatigue issues, maintenance oversight and operational discipline.
There is no problem about professional pilots and alcohol from a flight safety point of view. In a multi crew environment it is detected by the other crew. The self policing works. However from a socially divisive, media driven aspect, it is becoming a nuisance.
I am appalled that even pilots themselves suggest that random testing should be brought into aviation. Do you honestly believe that your profession is so degraded that you need a jobsworth to tell you if you are competent?
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FL,
Just to illustrate your point, in the offshore helicopter industry in Africa, there is a routine, random drug and alchohol testing policy in effect. This is at the insistence of some client oil companies. Pilots can refuse to agree to be tested, but if they do, they have to leave! The usual policy is that all pilots are tested a minimum of once and a maximum of twice annually. The doctor usually just arrives in the crewroom as crews arrive in the morning and asks the pilots whose names are on his list to go with him for their D&A tests. I don't think anybody has ever failed one so far, which only goes to show that there's probably not a problem. It may, of course, show that the fact that where such a policy is in place, people are less likely to transgress
Just to illustrate your point, in the offshore helicopter industry in Africa, there is a routine, random drug and alchohol testing policy in effect. This is at the insistence of some client oil companies. Pilots can refuse to agree to be tested, but if they do, they have to leave! The usual policy is that all pilots are tested a minimum of once and a maximum of twice annually. The doctor usually just arrives in the crewroom as crews arrive in the morning and asks the pilots whose names are on his list to go with him for their D&A tests. I don't think anybody has ever failed one so far, which only goes to show that there's probably not a problem. It may, of course, show that the fact that where such a policy is in place, people are less likely to transgress
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Selective Memory
I am in the corner of those who believe that, statistically, there isn’t an alcohol problem within the professional pilot fraternity. I have seen with my own eyes evidence that sexual frustration (and its associated mental state) may be a greater cause for concern. Anyone want to start random testing for that?
However, I wonder how many professional pilots have ‘selective memory’ when completing the section of the medical examination form that asks how many units of alcohol they consume per week.
However, I wonder how many professional pilots have ‘selective memory’ when completing the section of the medical examination form that asks how many units of alcohol they consume per week.
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Random drug testing, no I’m not a fan of it either, just another tax. I remember the episode of Capt Lyle’s, and at the time we all thought poor bastard, he’s a gonna. Indeed a very pleasant surprise to hear of his recovery and selfless enthusiasm in helping his fellow man. Mrs Lyle must rate a mention as a very special person too, spot on.
In our outfit dope was zero tolerance, however alcohol was viewed more tolerantly, imbibed way too much in many cases. I’ve no doubt the bottle to throttle linkage was less than nominal, at times; however touch wood never with a problem.
One sad event we had was a young bloke who was exceptional as a driver but was a casual user of dope. He had been very careful and kept it away from his work, however one day he sets off on a long x country, a-smoking-on-the-way. He misses his one waypoint in three hours, gets lost, lands after dark facing towards lights 9 K’s distant and walks. It’s thick, medium level brush, he gets lost and four days later, in delirium and on the verge of perishing we find him. Needless to say EVERYONE knew about it so how we handled it was being VERY closely watched.
The boss and I shared the commercial view that we should try to keep him. The CP was not happy about it, anyrate as soon as the kid gets home he says to me, “Am I sacked?”
I says, ‘No, just go rest up a few days, talk to your parents (who of course were beside themselves by now) and settle yourself down a bit.’
When things were calm I gave him 24 hours to respond to a simple question, which was, ‘Can you give us a guarantee that you won’t do it again?’ I figured and was thinking of the arguments to use that we would somehow muscle this through with the authority if, as I hoped, he would say yes. Such was not to be.
Now after reading Lyles report I reckon we may have handled it better rather than losing a top young bloke to a milk delivery truck. Live and Learn!
FL asked if after accident blood testing was done in OZ and I don’t know that it is, but I am quite sure that a deceased pilot will be tested. I know of one case many years ago where an action was commenced by a passengers widow some years after the accident (about five I think). (It was a fw lightie in Tasmania) The pilots’ body was exhumed and in a cutting edge bit of work the pilot was positively tested for alcohol.
However as heliport has asked about our Aussie sobriety I’ll go back to some of our genetic pool and tend the following (anecdotal) evidence for consideration. It’s a bit of history from some archives of my old man’s. I’ve copied a couple of passages from the squadron (tongue in cheek) diary which was kept for posterity beside the official ones. Note the punctuation.
The event is 77 sqdn RAAF moving from Darwin to MilneBay, via leave in Sydney, ground party have already departed leaving the flying types behind.
31/01/1943
‘So after having seriously depleted security guards grog supply, and with they, our hosts, becoming more and more intolerant of us, it was an extremely happy day for all concerned when 19 kittyhawks and one Douglas transport took the air on the morning of the 31st. and headed south for Daly Waters; leaving 457 squadron of spitfires to hold the fort; as far as Livingstone field was concerned anyway. After a fast and uneventful run to Daly pilots were refreshed with a couple of icy cold brews, (Cracking show!) very thoughtfully provided by the mess there, and after a splendid lunch the squadron departed, with Hudson escort, for Cloncurry. After quite a tedious journey provided by “K” type Dingy Cloncurry hove in sight.’ ---
Not much grog in the Curry apparently, seems it was a poor show!
‘An early start was made for Charleville next morn -- we arrived safely, tho’ it is true
That many had some anxious moments with the tricky wind gradients on that ‘drome’ and Tom Watson taxied in with flaps down, thus laying himself open to a demand of “drinks all round.”
Naturally no time was wasted in heading toward the nearest Pub where an ample supply of beer seemed available, so all and sundry proceeded to get “stuck into it”, and it is not to be wondered at that when they departed from Charleville some three hours later, these same pilots appeared to be in an exceedingly happy frame of mind. ---
That night Amberley received quite a good doing over in one way and another.
Feb 2nd.
That evening the C.O. spilled 2 stupendous items of news. –
Firstly seven members of the squadron had been promoted to the exalted rank of Flight Leuitenant. The lucky ones – (Jim Joe Bill etc, etc) - Fearfully Good Show Chaps!! Particularly noteworthy was the way these types kept our glasses filled during the session that followed.’
The second item was - three weeks leave.
Their trip to Sydney had a couple of gems,
‘A couple of very dapper Dutchmen hove out of the murk and took charge of the kite, and we were soon taxying at no mean speed across the ‘drome’. For those that had not already had their nerves shattered by our “ride of death” provided by the Amberley Transport Section the take-off that followed supplied the finishing touches. No such pansy business as running up or testing magnetos for these boys and three point takeoffs seem to be their speciality. So with a couple of too cold “cyclones” struggling manfully we staggered off the deck, with the cabin floor at such an angle as to make us wonder whether Pythagoras knew what he was about. Maybe these blokes had never heard of Angle of Attack, but we had 500 ft over the hangars, which is pretty good going for a “Lodestar.”
As for the types in Sydney, their life held but one purpose, that being to consume the greatest quantity of grog possible in the shortest possible time. In this regard they were extremely successful, the Longbar of the ‘Australia’ providing an ideal rendezvous. We were firmly established at this self-same spot on the morning of the 4th. Feb; when the C.O. burst in, and after making his way to the bar, and smartly downing a couple of ales, he revealed to us the very latest Good Guts. The news was so surprising that several of the lads very nearly spilt their brews~ Bad show! Anyway we learned that we had been allotted 24 brand new P40K’s, so we made a further spirited attack on the “Australia’s” grog supply, before removing our various semi intoxicated persons towards “Silvers”, in search of a spot of nourishment.’
And in such vein it continues.
My mum, wistfully said a few years ago that many of their number were unable to kick the ‘Drinking Jag’ after the war, I don’t know whether so much in sorrow for them or more for my benefit ~ at the time. I don’t say all Aussies and esp. the air force of today is like this but I am not too ashamed to admit that I’ve taken the odd cold shower trim change and am glad to have come out of it. There you go. It’s the act of addiction that was the problem for me, beer, caffeine or tobacco was only the vehicle. For others of course it can be a simple craving from a body chemical imbalance, if only the right supplemental jag could be found?
Cheers TET.
In our outfit dope was zero tolerance, however alcohol was viewed more tolerantly, imbibed way too much in many cases. I’ve no doubt the bottle to throttle linkage was less than nominal, at times; however touch wood never with a problem.
One sad event we had was a young bloke who was exceptional as a driver but was a casual user of dope. He had been very careful and kept it away from his work, however one day he sets off on a long x country, a-smoking-on-the-way. He misses his one waypoint in three hours, gets lost, lands after dark facing towards lights 9 K’s distant and walks. It’s thick, medium level brush, he gets lost and four days later, in delirium and on the verge of perishing we find him. Needless to say EVERYONE knew about it so how we handled it was being VERY closely watched.
The boss and I shared the commercial view that we should try to keep him. The CP was not happy about it, anyrate as soon as the kid gets home he says to me, “Am I sacked?”
I says, ‘No, just go rest up a few days, talk to your parents (who of course were beside themselves by now) and settle yourself down a bit.’
When things were calm I gave him 24 hours to respond to a simple question, which was, ‘Can you give us a guarantee that you won’t do it again?’ I figured and was thinking of the arguments to use that we would somehow muscle this through with the authority if, as I hoped, he would say yes. Such was not to be.
Now after reading Lyles report I reckon we may have handled it better rather than losing a top young bloke to a milk delivery truck. Live and Learn!
FL asked if after accident blood testing was done in OZ and I don’t know that it is, but I am quite sure that a deceased pilot will be tested. I know of one case many years ago where an action was commenced by a passengers widow some years after the accident (about five I think). (It was a fw lightie in Tasmania) The pilots’ body was exhumed and in a cutting edge bit of work the pilot was positively tested for alcohol.
However as heliport has asked about our Aussie sobriety I’ll go back to some of our genetic pool and tend the following (anecdotal) evidence for consideration. It’s a bit of history from some archives of my old man’s. I’ve copied a couple of passages from the squadron (tongue in cheek) diary which was kept for posterity beside the official ones. Note the punctuation.
The event is 77 sqdn RAAF moving from Darwin to MilneBay, via leave in Sydney, ground party have already departed leaving the flying types behind.
31/01/1943
‘So after having seriously depleted security guards grog supply, and with they, our hosts, becoming more and more intolerant of us, it was an extremely happy day for all concerned when 19 kittyhawks and one Douglas transport took the air on the morning of the 31st. and headed south for Daly Waters; leaving 457 squadron of spitfires to hold the fort; as far as Livingstone field was concerned anyway. After a fast and uneventful run to Daly pilots were refreshed with a couple of icy cold brews, (Cracking show!) very thoughtfully provided by the mess there, and after a splendid lunch the squadron departed, with Hudson escort, for Cloncurry. After quite a tedious journey provided by “K” type Dingy Cloncurry hove in sight.’ ---
Not much grog in the Curry apparently, seems it was a poor show!
‘An early start was made for Charleville next morn -- we arrived safely, tho’ it is true
That many had some anxious moments with the tricky wind gradients on that ‘drome’ and Tom Watson taxied in with flaps down, thus laying himself open to a demand of “drinks all round.”
Naturally no time was wasted in heading toward the nearest Pub where an ample supply of beer seemed available, so all and sundry proceeded to get “stuck into it”, and it is not to be wondered at that when they departed from Charleville some three hours later, these same pilots appeared to be in an exceedingly happy frame of mind. ---
That night Amberley received quite a good doing over in one way and another.
Feb 2nd.
That evening the C.O. spilled 2 stupendous items of news. –
Firstly seven members of the squadron had been promoted to the exalted rank of Flight Leuitenant. The lucky ones – (Jim Joe Bill etc, etc) - Fearfully Good Show Chaps!! Particularly noteworthy was the way these types kept our glasses filled during the session that followed.’
The second item was - three weeks leave.
Their trip to Sydney had a couple of gems,
‘A couple of very dapper Dutchmen hove out of the murk and took charge of the kite, and we were soon taxying at no mean speed across the ‘drome’. For those that had not already had their nerves shattered by our “ride of death” provided by the Amberley Transport Section the take-off that followed supplied the finishing touches. No such pansy business as running up or testing magnetos for these boys and three point takeoffs seem to be their speciality. So with a couple of too cold “cyclones” struggling manfully we staggered off the deck, with the cabin floor at such an angle as to make us wonder whether Pythagoras knew what he was about. Maybe these blokes had never heard of Angle of Attack, but we had 500 ft over the hangars, which is pretty good going for a “Lodestar.”
As for the types in Sydney, their life held but one purpose, that being to consume the greatest quantity of grog possible in the shortest possible time. In this regard they were extremely successful, the Longbar of the ‘Australia’ providing an ideal rendezvous. We were firmly established at this self-same spot on the morning of the 4th. Feb; when the C.O. burst in, and after making his way to the bar, and smartly downing a couple of ales, he revealed to us the very latest Good Guts. The news was so surprising that several of the lads very nearly spilt their brews~ Bad show! Anyway we learned that we had been allotted 24 brand new P40K’s, so we made a further spirited attack on the “Australia’s” grog supply, before removing our various semi intoxicated persons towards “Silvers”, in search of a spot of nourishment.’
And in such vein it continues.
My mum, wistfully said a few years ago that many of their number were unable to kick the ‘Drinking Jag’ after the war, I don’t know whether so much in sorrow for them or more for my benefit ~ at the time. I don’t say all Aussies and esp. the air force of today is like this but I am not too ashamed to admit that I’ve taken the odd cold shower trim change and am glad to have come out of it. There you go. It’s the act of addiction that was the problem for me, beer, caffeine or tobacco was only the vehicle. For others of course it can be a simple craving from a body chemical imbalance, if only the right supplemental jag could be found?
Cheers TET.
