Mission Impossible
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Mission Impossible
News report from California ....
Plans to tether a World War II era C-47 plane to a California Air National Guard Chinook helicopter and airlift it from the airport to the Travis Air Museum had to be scrapped when the plane turned out to be too heavy to lift.
"It's a big disappointment, but that's better than a catastrophe," said Duncan Miller, former U.S. Army Air Corps pilot, who owned the aircraft - which like other C-47s is affectionately nicknamed "Gooney Bird" - for some 17 years before donating it to the museum.
"It breaks my heart, but it is smart of the helicopter crew not to do it, for safety reasons," Miller said. "I've been aboard aircraft that crashed. This is the better way. It's better to say I'm sorry it didn't work today than trying to explain why it crashed."
Plans to tether a World War II era C-47 plane to a California Air National Guard Chinook helicopter and airlift it from the airport to the Travis Air Museum had to be scrapped when the plane turned out to be too heavy to lift.
"It's a big disappointment, but that's better than a catastrophe," said Duncan Miller, former U.S. Army Air Corps pilot, who owned the aircraft - which like other C-47s is affectionately nicknamed "Gooney Bird" - for some 17 years before donating it to the museum.
"It breaks my heart, but it is smart of the helicopter crew not to do it, for safety reasons," Miller said. "I've been aboard aircraft that crashed. This is the better way. It's better to say I'm sorry it didn't work today than trying to explain why it crashed."
California Air National Guard Flight Engineer Steve Robertson said the problem came down to a simple issue of weight. "When we did the planning, we were told it weighed around 17,000 pounds and that's an acceptable amount," he said. "But when we lifted it, it weighed considerably more. It must weigh around 21,000 to 22,000 (pounds)." The Chinook is not capable of lifting that kind of weight, he explained.
Plans to move the plane are not ending, however. Robertson said that if portions of the wings or the engines were removed, the lift could go forward. Then the removed portions could be reconnected at Travis.
"We'll have to see," said Miller. "I'm no quitter."
"We'll have to see," said Miller. "I'm no quitter."
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Why didn't they give it a running takeoff? 
Shouda---Wouda---called Columbia, according to the IHOG they have the capabilty to lift 27,000lbs with the 234. I may be wrong but I think Erikson can lift 25,000 lbs with the S-64F.
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here is a short video of it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAIxfR422Lg
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when i was a kid growing up in goderich, ontario, i vaguely remember when an RCAF Labrador picked up a Lancaster and it went to hamilton to the War Planes Heritage Museum where it has since been restored to flying condition.
as i was only 6 at the time my recollection of the details are scarce but it seems to me that the wings where removed and taken away on a truck bed.
i'd expect that this 47 should have been able to lift the other 47 as it is a lighter aircraft (probably?) and a more powerful helicopter. perhaps if the engines had been removed (not the helicopters ). hard for me to say of coarse.
as i was only 6 at the time my recollection of the details are scarce but it seems to me that the wings where removed and taken away on a truck bed.
i'd expect that this 47 should have been able to lift the other 47 as it is a lighter aircraft (probably?) and a more powerful helicopter. perhaps if the engines had been removed (not the helicopters
). hard for me to say of coarse.
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Hovering AND talking
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So I would not want to be the bird that gives the Gooney its name!
Cheers
Whirls
PS - Just found this pic online - Aw innit swee'
Last edited by Whirlygig; 17th Nov 2006 at 21:59.
I think the Chinook can lift in the region of 12 tons so it should have been possible. However, the big problem with taking an aerodynamic underslung load like this is that it would want to fly and could get distinctly unstable. It would be a great shame to have to pickle a load like that so maybe the crew used the weight issue as an excuse.
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Correct me if I`m wrong, shouldn`t they have done their sums (T/O data TOLD) first. Wouldn`t the downwash place some extra force on the load with such a large cross section (wing)? Yes it would be aerody unstable, i know of a load, a Spec ops RIB that decided to get airbourne and puncture the underbelly of a chook. And that was pickled. 200K?
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Columbia using 3000 gallon Bambi Buckets so should be able to lift the Dak quite easily when using a long-line. Downwash on such a large surface does increase the apparent weight a lot but with a 200+ foot line that should not be a problem.
Columbia also removed the external fuel tanks and replaced them with tanks inside the fuselage, improves performance due to smaller profile not obstructing the downwash as much. See pic.
Columbia also removed the external fuel tanks and replaced them with tanks inside the fuselage, improves performance due to smaller profile not obstructing the downwash as much. See pic.
If they removed the outer wing sections of the C-47 the Chinook would have probably lifted it , the down wash onto the flat wing area increases the load on the hook of the lifting a/c , the crew of the Chinook should have known that , there is a formula to work out downwash weight increase on flat areas most airmovement training units in the military should teach that!
The Australian Airforce learned this years ago lifting crashed Caribou and A-20 Bostons in PNG
The Columbia Chinooks have there external tanks removed for just this reason, reduce downwash force area to increase available lift, the oposite of this is the large tanks on the MH-47 and Singapore CH-47 give great range but reduce available sling load.
The Australian Airforce learned this years ago lifting crashed Caribou and A-20 Bostons in PNG
The Columbia Chinooks have there external tanks removed for just this reason, reduce downwash force area to increase available lift, the oposite of this is the large tanks on the MH-47 and Singapore CH-47 give great range but reduce available sling load.
now that is a load I would like to have seen airborne - I bet the video would have been great. 
very poor quality video, but I just cannot seem to find any spoilers fitted. Bueller?
very poor quality video, but I just cannot seem to find any spoilers fitted. Bueller?
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The CH-53E can operationally lift 32,000 lbs and move it 50 miles return empty and have 30 min reserve. If you remove the wings on a CH47, and the rotors and the engines and the fuselage, and stuff them into a 53E, you could fly all day long and drop pieces everywhere!
Here it is with a 23,000 lb M113:
http://www.aircav.com/dodphoto/dod04/ch53-061.html
Here it is with a 23,000 lb M113:
http://www.aircav.com/dodphoto/dod04/ch53-061.html
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The CH-53E can operationally lift 32,000 lbs and move it 50 miles return empty and have 30 min reserve. If you remove the wings on a CH47, and the rotors and the engines and the fuselage, and stuff them into a 53E, you could fly all day long and drop pieces everywhere!
Here it is with a 23,000 lb M113:
Here it is with a 23,000 lb M113:
In more peaceful days when the 53Es weren't all in points East, a 9x36 buoy (9' in diameter, 36' from top to bottom, 18,000 pounds) broke itself free off San Francisco and beached itself on one of the islands outside the bay.
Efforts to free it by boat were unavailing as it's a bit reefy and rocky out there. The Captain rang up the Colonel at (then) Alameda and asked if his boys in the reserve squadron wanted any sling training. The capable fellows from the Corps headed out, picked the thing up, brought it back to the Coast Guard Base (also in Alameda) for guano scraping, repainting, and refurbishing. The Major of Marines who flew the 53E later stated that was the first (and likely the last) time his CO would ever command him to fly UNDER the Golden Gate Bridge.
Last edited by Um... lifting...; 21st Nov 2006 at 13:34.
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I have bin' out an about a bit of late, so may have missed some corespondence as to his whereabouts, but i am amazed that this thread has progressed thus far without our most famous of all chook heroes not contributing.
He'd a damm well picked thet load up one eye shut an the other only haff open. Mighta tol em to put a coupla cargo nets over them sticking out things as well, so's to give him a bit of peace whilst tooling along sipping on his cawfee.
Hope he hasn't bin playin around with one of his an my common amigos too much. I was thinking about some of his comments about him the other day and decided, bugger it i'll kick that amigo clean out the door. felt much better for doing so.
Yeah well, a few legends in OZ have been dropping off of late, I do hope that he is OK!
He'd a damm well picked thet load up one eye shut an the other only haff open. Mighta tol em to put a coupla cargo nets over them sticking out things as well, so's to give him a bit of peace whilst tooling along sipping on his cawfee.
Hope he hasn't bin playin around with one of his an my common amigos too much. I was thinking about some of his comments about him the other day and decided, bugger it i'll kick that amigo clean out the door. felt much better for doing so.
Yeah well, a few legends in OZ have been dropping off of late, I do hope that he is OK!
