SVFR and IFR at night
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SVFR and IFR at night
You are an A109 arriving at EGLL in daylight, then your handling agent books you out to depart two hours after sunset. Your intention is to route H9 north to leave the zone and route direct to Sheffield Hospital.
Question - would you, as the pilot, consider requesting the filing of a flight plan of any sort with Heathrow FBU (or anybody else, for that matter) before departure? And if not, why not?
Question - would you, as the pilot, consider requesting the filing of a flight plan of any sort with Heathrow FBU (or anybody else, for that matter) before departure? And if not, why not?
Last edited by White Hart; 17th Nov 2006 at 10:05.
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Well, since you're asking a legalistic question the legalistic answer is that you must file a flight plan, UK AIP ENR 1.10 1.4.2 (a) refers.
However like all lawyers' answers that's not particularly useful, so I'm guessing that your question is "Are you OBLIGED to file a FULL CA48 flight plan."
There may be more but here's at least one scenario where as far as I can tell you are not OBLIGED to file a full CA48 flight plan.
However like all lawyers' answers that's not particularly useful, so I'm guessing that your question is "Are you OBLIGED to file a FULL CA48 flight plan."
There may be more but here's at least one scenario where as far as I can tell you are not OBLIGED to file a full CA48 flight plan.
- You have no paying passengers (ie not public transport)
- You are offered an SVFR transit out of the heathrow zone before taking off
- You are willing to route round all controlled airspace en route (in case you're not offered SVFR)
- You are happy for en-route services and your destination aerodrome to have no prior knowledge of you
Just to weigh in...in your initial title, you write SVFR or IFR...not sure what the european rules on filing a flight plan are, but here in Australia SVFR (special VFR?) is a day only option...no can do at night.
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The 'no VFR at night' issue is the part which is causing a mini-controversy. The FBU at EGLL has instructions not to accept any VFR flightplans for departure at night. So, when a heli books out, as given in the example, the SVFR clearance only applies as far as the control zone boundary. But what about the rest of the journey?
As the instruction is from our FBU Manager; is on NATS headed paper, and is stuck firmly to the noticeboard where I/we can all see (and adhere to) it, then I consider it 'illegal' for a helicopter to book out at night to anywhere outside of the control zone without filing a SVFR/IFR flightplan for the entire journey, unless there is a Rule in the ANO or other document which states that there is no need to file an IFR flightplan for a heli night flight of this sort outside of CAS.
The given scenario occurred very recently, and a call to Thames/SVFR prompted the response that 'once its out of our zone, we're not interested'. In the event of an accident, would the Board of Enquiry take the same view?
It's now unclear as to whether we in the FBU should advise pilots to file at night, or whether we should insist that they do. I suppose a verbal 'we'll airfile once we're on our way' would be sufficient, as the call is recorded. If they don't, then at least the liability is removed from the FBU, and placed squarely on the pilot's shoulders.
This 'no-file at night' procedure has been going on at Heathrow for many years, but I've never been personally happy with it. Suffice it to say, after reading the earlier thread/debate on VFR/IFR at night, and after the discussion in the VCR recently, I now feel uncomfortable enough to have to raise the issue at Tech Comm level for a bit of 'legal' clarification.
As the instruction is from our FBU Manager; is on NATS headed paper, and is stuck firmly to the noticeboard where I/we can all see (and adhere to) it, then I consider it 'illegal' for a helicopter to book out at night to anywhere outside of the control zone without filing a SVFR/IFR flightplan for the entire journey, unless there is a Rule in the ANO or other document which states that there is no need to file an IFR flightplan for a heli night flight of this sort outside of CAS.
The given scenario occurred very recently, and a call to Thames/SVFR prompted the response that 'once its out of our zone, we're not interested'. In the event of an accident, would the Board of Enquiry take the same view?
It's now unclear as to whether we in the FBU should advise pilots to file at night, or whether we should insist that they do. I suppose a verbal 'we'll airfile once we're on our way' would be sufficient, as the call is recorded. If they don't, then at least the liability is removed from the FBU, and placed squarely on the pilot's shoulders.
This 'no-file at night' procedure has been going on at Heathrow for many years, but I've never been personally happy with it. Suffice it to say, after reading the earlier thread/debate on VFR/IFR at night, and after the discussion in the VCR recently, I now feel uncomfortable enough to have to raise the issue at Tech Comm level for a bit of 'legal' clarification.
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Well my reading of the Rules of the Air Regs (1996) is fairly unambiguous.
Section VI article 28 (2) makes it clear that IFR flight OUTSIDE CAS only requires compliance with articles 29 (Minimum Height), and 30 (Quadrantal Rule). Article 31 (Flightplans) only relates to IFR flights within CAS.
Since you're leaving SVFR there is no obligation for a full flight plan (UK AIP ENR 1.2.2.4), and when your SVFR service terminates at the zone boundary, then as Thames says you are well and truly on your own, outside CAS IFR with no radar service unless someone takes pity on you.
If you then have a problem, and the insurance company or other interested party can make the case that your lack of ATC liaison exacerbated the situation, then you are well and truly up a small smelly river without any means of propulsion.
Hence my view that legally you can do it, but practically you'd be nuts to do so. In practice though, since you control movements at LHR you can make whatever local rules you like until challenged. By posting a notice, that is exactly what your Manager has done - good for him (or her) !
Section VI article 28 (2) makes it clear that IFR flight OUTSIDE CAS only requires compliance with articles 29 (Minimum Height), and 30 (Quadrantal Rule). Article 31 (Flightplans) only relates to IFR flights within CAS.
Since you're leaving SVFR there is no obligation for a full flight plan (UK AIP ENR 1.2.2.4), and when your SVFR service terminates at the zone boundary, then as Thames says you are well and truly on your own, outside CAS IFR with no radar service unless someone takes pity on you.
If you then have a problem, and the insurance company or other interested party can make the case that your lack of ATC liaison exacerbated the situation, then you are well and truly up a small smelly river without any means of propulsion.
Hence my view that legally you can do it, but practically you'd be nuts to do so. In practice though, since you control movements at LHR you can make whatever local rules you like until challenged. By posting a notice, that is exactly what your Manager has done - good for him (or her) !
Last edited by puntosaurus; 17th Nov 2006 at 13:48.
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If Heathrow give you an SVFR departure clearance to leave the CTR then you are fine. If they require you to take a runway slot they can still clear you SVFR. In UK it is not mandatory to file a written flight plan either for SVFR, or for IFR flight in class G airspace. Any further controlled airspace en route can be crossed under Special VFR or IFR subject to ATC clearance via R/T.
Not sure why it shouldn't be considered sensible to fly at night without a full written flight plan. Filling in a form to any agency in UK doesn't actually make a flight any safer. Provided the pilot maintains contact with ATC en route, he has a more relevant and immediate flight following service than a written flightplan offers.
It should be borne in mind that not all aircraft operate from airports or at a place where there are any facilities to submit a flight plan. A requirement to submit a written flight plan would cause operational difficulties to the corporate helicopter industry.
Example: A helicopter pilot is waiting past midnight at a helipad or a private landing site for his customers. He has not been to an airfield or home all week. How does he:
A) Submit the written flight plan in the first instance?
B) Pass on any written amendments?
Anyone who answers "Through his Ops department", take one pace backwards.....Anyone answering "through his handling agent" take two paces!
Not sure why it shouldn't be considered sensible to fly at night without a full written flight plan. Filling in a form to any agency in UK doesn't actually make a flight any safer. Provided the pilot maintains contact with ATC en route, he has a more relevant and immediate flight following service than a written flightplan offers.
It should be borne in mind that not all aircraft operate from airports or at a place where there are any facilities to submit a flight plan. A requirement to submit a written flight plan would cause operational difficulties to the corporate helicopter industry.
Example: A helicopter pilot is waiting past midnight at a helipad or a private landing site for his customers. He has not been to an airfield or home all week. How does he:
A) Submit the written flight plan in the first instance?
B) Pass on any written amendments?
Anyone who answers "Through his Ops department", take one pace backwards.....Anyone answering "through his handling agent" take two paces!
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Puntosaurus my dear chap, you must be born unlucky......
Heading north on the way from a south coast airfield a couple of nights ago to a private helipad I got RIS in Class G airspace from Farnborough, Brize, Coventry, East Midlands and DoncaSheFinningley.
Last night on the way from Battersea it was Northolt, Luton, East Mids with a couple of short gaps for a FIS from Cranfield and Sywell as it was more relevant to speak to them directly.
Nothing unusual about this, I've never filed a written flight plan for this type of flight in UK and I've been doing this for some long time now. How do you think most heli folk operate at night?
Heading north on the way from a south coast airfield a couple of nights ago to a private helipad I got RIS in Class G airspace from Farnborough, Brize, Coventry, East Midlands and DoncaSheFinningley.
Last night on the way from Battersea it was Northolt, Luton, East Mids with a couple of short gaps for a FIS from Cranfield and Sywell as it was more relevant to speak to them directly.
Nothing unusual about this, I've never filed a written flight plan for this type of flight in UK and I've been doing this for some long time now. How do you think most heli folk operate at night?
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What happens en route is another call.... but we don't even see yr fltplan in LTCC if you have filed one. Luton et al will also not see it.
We generally do try and give radar derived traffic info to you - but if Luton are busy and unable to take a handover then a frecall is the best option, as you need to start planningthat part of the flight.
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In the uk is it legal to depart from a private site at night (ifr or vfr) assuming the pilot is ifr rated night rated and on a private flight in an ifr twin?
Would really love an answer to this!
thanx
Would really love an answer to this!
thanx
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2. What do you mean by "IFR night rated"? You must have either an IR or a night rating/qualification.
3. For private category, you do not necessarily need a twin-engined helicopter. Neither do you need an IFR helicopter though there is a minimum amount of equipment required for flight at night (see ANO Schedule 4).
Subject to the above, perfectly legal.
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Pretty much so mate. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news....
ShyT and the rest of the boys almost always get what they want, and some Radar derived traffic Information before the "out of the zone, we're not interested" kicks in. (especially if getting close!)
Filing a FPL generally meets one need (the ANO!) - not the pilot or ATCO.
ShyT and the rest of the boys almost always get what they want, and some Radar derived traffic Information before the "out of the zone, we're not interested" kicks in. (especially if getting close!)
Filing a FPL generally meets one need (the ANO!) - not the pilot or ATCO.
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If you're lucky, they might notice and look for you if you don't turn up. Or they might not. BTW, if you do file a flight plan at night, do you always ensure it has been closed? If not, how many times has someone initiated a search? What is more likely to alert someone is if you have booked in / PPR'd at an airfield and you don't arrive. If your destination's not an airfield, nominate someone "a responsible person" to look out for you.
AlanM can give good advice regarding who actually looks at your flightplan and has already mentioned who doesn't...... that's why I mentioned flight following via ATC en route.
In class G at night, you are essentially on your own so plan it carefully. If you require a service, ask ATC and generally you will get it, subject to their workload. Listen out first. If they are busy (e.g. have they told someone else to stand by or is the controller talking nineteen to the dozen?) be prepared to route around their airspace without asking for a crossing. If routeing round, you might get a FIS or RIS if they can cope. If you can't get a word in edgeways, at least you have a chance of someone on the frequency hearing a distress call, should the worst happen! Although ATC can offer advice, it's essentially a case of your lookout, your separation from other traffic and from terrain (1000' above the highest obstacle within 5nm or fly SSA off the charts).
It's legal.
AlanM can give good advice regarding who actually looks at your flightplan and has already mentioned who doesn't...... that's why I mentioned flight following via ATC en route.
In class G at night, you are essentially on your own so plan it carefully. If you require a service, ask ATC and generally you will get it, subject to their workload. Listen out first. If they are busy (e.g. have they told someone else to stand by or is the controller talking nineteen to the dozen?) be prepared to route around their airspace without asking for a crossing. If routeing round, you might get a FIS or RIS if they can cope. If you can't get a word in edgeways, at least you have a chance of someone on the frequency hearing a distress call, should the worst happen! Although ATC can offer advice, it's essentially a case of your lookout, your separation from other traffic and from terrain (1000' above the highest obstacle within 5nm or fly SSA off the charts).
It's legal.
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Sorry, meant IR and a night rating.
Sorry if im asking an answered question but can you Depart from an unlicenced helipad at night in a twin with an IR?
Us irish are always looking for clarification eh
Sorry if im asking an answered question but can you Depart from an unlicenced helipad at night in a twin with an IR?
Us irish are always looking for clarification eh
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If you can depart from an unlicenced helipad in a single without an IR (see my previous answer), I think it's safe to assume you can do it in a twin and with an IR
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If, after future discussion, the Tech Comm or Ops/Safety Unit decide that filing a flightplan is required after all, then it could prove interesting for operators who have been used to just booking out from EGLL at night; no file - no go, perhaps?
If Ops/Tech decide or advise to the contrary, then I cannot see how the current FBU instruction to advise others operating outside of the LL CTZ of any requirement to file an IFR flightplan can be upheld.
I have no objection to either option - as the guy in the FBU, I just want to know which is the correct one.
If Ops/Tech decide or advise to the contrary, then I cannot see how the current FBU instruction to advise others operating outside of the LL CTZ of any requirement to file an IFR flightplan can be upheld.
I have no objection to either option - as the guy in the FBU, I just want to know which is the correct one.
Last edited by White Hart; 18th Nov 2006 at 00:22.
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I should point out that WH and his merry band of brothers and sisters do occasionally phone the flt plan detail through to LHR SVFR - but it isn't really needed as Delivery phone up with it on start.
We shall see what transpires. All seems a bit OTT to me.
We shall see what transpires. All seems a bit OTT to me.
Shytorque - just out of interest, what heights do you normally do your night transits at? I only ask as a mil operator who can fly VFR at night whether or not we might encounter civ traffic below 3000' in the dark.
170',
This has nothing whatsoever to do with JARs. The subject is confined to EGLL and it is a discussion about UK regulations and specifically the ANO.
I would also add that the basis for Rules of the Air - which have been quoted here - are the UK implementation of ICAO Annex 2 SARPs (which, in the case of the UK, contains substantial alleviation for helicopters at night - in the absence of Night VFR). At this time, there is no European harmonisation of Rules of the Air.
There is also, in the range of posts, a mix of discussion between the rules for Commercial Air Transport and General Aviation: for the former, the operational rules are contained either in the ANO or JARs (according to which regime is applied by the operator); for the latter the ANO only.
All pilots should be aware which rules apply to their circumstances; as this is a professional pilots forum, we might expect a higher level of comprehension.
As a general answer to Crab's question, below 3000ft, a pilot can elect to fly at any height that is clear of cloud and in sight of the surface and which complies with the minimum altitude rules (rule 5 etc). I am not sure that even the Military can fly Night VFR as it does not exist in UK Airspace.
Jim
This has nothing whatsoever to do with JARs. The subject is confined to EGLL and it is a discussion about UK regulations and specifically the ANO.
I would also add that the basis for Rules of the Air - which have been quoted here - are the UK implementation of ICAO Annex 2 SARPs (which, in the case of the UK, contains substantial alleviation for helicopters at night - in the absence of Night VFR). At this time, there is no European harmonisation of Rules of the Air.
There is also, in the range of posts, a mix of discussion between the rules for Commercial Air Transport and General Aviation: for the former, the operational rules are contained either in the ANO or JARs (according to which regime is applied by the operator); for the latter the ANO only.
All pilots should be aware which rules apply to their circumstances; as this is a professional pilots forum, we might expect a higher level of comprehension.
As a general answer to Crab's question, below 3000ft, a pilot can elect to fly at any height that is clear of cloud and in sight of the surface and which complies with the minimum altitude rules (rule 5 etc). I am not sure that even the Military can fly Night VFR as it does not exist in UK Airspace.
Jim