SVFR and IFR at night
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Puntosaurus
Like ShyTorque, I too am amazed you have trouble getting a radar service unless you've filed an IFR flight plan - I've rarely been refused without obvious reason when requesting. You must indeeed be unlucky. Whether or not one can get a radar service outside CAS depends very much on how busy ATC is, and I think most pilots use a bit of common sense before asking. If it's a gin clear night, I'm over Aylesbury northbound and Luton is very busy I wouldn't bother asking, though some do - often with the predictable reply! On a ****ty night IMC, different deal.
I'm sure I'm not alone in once having forgotten to close a flight plan when landing at a private site until, to my dismay, about 6 hours later. No-one had started looking for me - or indeed called my mobile number, which I always put on flight plans. No drama when I apologetically closed late. So doesn't seem filing even an IFR flight plan affords any kind of close monitoring! Better to rely on talking to any service that's awake, with London information always there and requesting position reports. In fact I'd be interested to know how soon they do exactly what, if you don't report - any offers?
I reckon letting a responsible person know your eta, route and who to call if you've not arrived within 30 mins is the safest option.
Like ShyTorque, I too am amazed you have trouble getting a radar service unless you've filed an IFR flight plan - I've rarely been refused without obvious reason when requesting. You must indeeed be unlucky. Whether or not one can get a radar service outside CAS depends very much on how busy ATC is, and I think most pilots use a bit of common sense before asking. If it's a gin clear night, I'm over Aylesbury northbound and Luton is very busy I wouldn't bother asking, though some do - often with the predictable reply! On a ****ty night IMC, different deal.
I'm sure I'm not alone in once having forgotten to close a flight plan when landing at a private site until, to my dismay, about 6 hours later. No-one had started looking for me - or indeed called my mobile number, which I always put on flight plans. No drama when I apologetically closed late. So doesn't seem filing even an IFR flight plan affords any kind of close monitoring! Better to rely on talking to any service that's awake, with London information always there and requesting position reports. In fact I'd be interested to know how soon they do exactly what, if you don't report - any offers?
I reckon letting a responsible person know your eta, route and who to call if you've not arrived within 30 mins is the safest option.
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Someone cares.....!!
JimL, according to puntosaurus, civilian traffic must abide by the minimum height rule and fly quadrantals; is he wrong or can you fly IFR outside CAS as long as you simply stay above safety altitude.
The military fly reversionary night flying at or above 500' msd or on NVG at any height - it is certainly not IFR (other than roads,railways etc
) but it's not called night VFR even though that is what it is.
The military fly reversionary night flying at or above 500' msd or on NVG at any height - it is certainly not IFR (other than roads,railways etc
) but it's not called night VFR even though that is what it is.
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Not sure whether i should start another thread on this one but here goes.
About two months ago, I had a flight departing from a 'suitably lit' but unlicenced site at 01:00 in the morning. I filed my ifr flight plan three hours in advance and was night current and My IR was current.
The Departure was in class G airspace IFR but in very good VMC
I climbed to the MSA and flew back to an airport for an ILS and landed without incident.
After landing i was informed that an MOR was filed against me for flying vfr at night outside of controlled airspace.
After discussion with the IAA it was discovered that the rules regarding this were very murky and the IAA are now going to clarify this matter with legislation.. . . . . I.E. ban all night operations that depart from unlicenced sites.
The IAA are adiment that they are following the lead of the CAA and that in the UK it is illegal to depart off airport at night and fly anywhere.
I know the FAA have no problem with this and i thought the CAA didnt either. . . I thought
Any thoughts?
About two months ago, I had a flight departing from a 'suitably lit' but unlicenced site at 01:00 in the morning. I filed my ifr flight plan three hours in advance and was night current and My IR was current.
The Departure was in class G airspace IFR but in very good VMC
I climbed to the MSA and flew back to an airport for an ILS and landed without incident.
After landing i was informed that an MOR was filed against me for flying vfr at night outside of controlled airspace.
After discussion with the IAA it was discovered that the rules regarding this were very murky and the IAA are now going to clarify this matter with legislation.. . . . . I.E. ban all night operations that depart from unlicenced sites.
The IAA are adiment that they are following the lead of the CAA and that in the UK it is illegal to depart off airport at night and fly anywhere.
I know the FAA have no problem with this and i thought the CAA didnt either. . . I thought
Any thoughts?
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So, technically, no vfr at night in the UK,(unless SVFR inside CAS) if you depart an airport routing to another airport, outside CAS, you are IFR so abide by quadrantal rules and minimum heights...and even on a gin clear night you must also carry alternate fuel as you are following IFR rules????
Thats how I understand it, anyone clarify?
Cheers....
Thats how I understand it, anyone clarify?
Cheers....
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whatsarunway
I have no experience nor knowledge of what the situation is over in the Emerald Isle. As regards the UK, I refer you to my previous answers.
Crab
The relevant extract from the Rules of the Air concerning IFR outside controlled airspace is below
SECTION VI INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES
Instrument Flight Rules
28 (1) In relation to flights within controlled airspace rules 29, 31 and 32 shall be the Instrument Flight Rules.
(2) In relation to flights outside controlled airspace rules 29 and 30 shall be the Instrument Flight Rules.
Minimum height
29 Without prejudice to the provisions of rule 5, in order to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules an aircraft shall not fly at a height of less than 1000 feet above the highest obstacle within a distance of 5 nautical miles of the aircraft unless:
(a) it is necessary for the aircraft to do so in order to take off or land;
(b) the aircraft is flying on a route notified for the purposes of this rule;
(c) the aircraft has been otherwise authorised by the competent authority; or
(d) the aircraft is flying at an altitude not exceeding 3000 feet above mean sea level and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
Quadrantal rule and semi-circular rule
30 (1) Subject to paragraph (2), in order to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules, an aircraft when in level flight above 3000 feet above mean sea level or above the appropriate transition altitude, whichever is the higher, shall be flown at a level appropriate to its magnetic track, in accordance with the appropriate Table set forth in this rule. The level of flight shall be measured by an altimeter set:
(a) in the case of a flight over the United Kingdom, to a pressure setting of 1013.2 hectopascals; or
(b) in the case of any other flight, according to the system published by the
competent authority in relation to the area over which the aircraft is flying.
(2) An aircraft may be flown at a level other than the level required by paragraph (1) if it is flying in conformity with instructions given by an air traffic control unit or in accordance with notified en route holding patterns or in accordance with holding procedures notified in relation to an aerodrome.
(3) For the purposes of this rule ‘transition altitude’ means the altitude so notified in relation to flight over such area or areas as may be notified.
In other words, you can be IFR and below 3,000 ft/TA thus negating the requirement to fly quadrantals. I am guessing that the military get round this using the exemption stated at Rule 29 (c). Puntosaurus did not say that civilian traffic must abide by the minimum height rule AND fly quadrantals. He referred to Rule 28 which in turns refers to Rules 29 and 30 which, as you can see from the above, only requires compliance with the quadrantal rule when flying above 3,000 altitude or TA whichever is higher.
I have no experience nor knowledge of what the situation is over in the Emerald Isle. As regards the UK, I refer you to my previous answers.
Crab
The relevant extract from the Rules of the Air concerning IFR outside controlled airspace is below
SECTION VI INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES
Instrument Flight Rules
28 (1) In relation to flights within controlled airspace rules 29, 31 and 32 shall be the Instrument Flight Rules.
(2) In relation to flights outside controlled airspace rules 29 and 30 shall be the Instrument Flight Rules.
Minimum height
29 Without prejudice to the provisions of rule 5, in order to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules an aircraft shall not fly at a height of less than 1000 feet above the highest obstacle within a distance of 5 nautical miles of the aircraft unless:
(a) it is necessary for the aircraft to do so in order to take off or land;
(b) the aircraft is flying on a route notified for the purposes of this rule;
(c) the aircraft has been otherwise authorised by the competent authority; or
(d) the aircraft is flying at an altitude not exceeding 3000 feet above mean sea level and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
Quadrantal rule and semi-circular rule
30 (1) Subject to paragraph (2), in order to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules, an aircraft when in level flight above 3000 feet above mean sea level or above the appropriate transition altitude, whichever is the higher, shall be flown at a level appropriate to its magnetic track, in accordance with the appropriate Table set forth in this rule. The level of flight shall be measured by an altimeter set:
(a) in the case of a flight over the United Kingdom, to a pressure setting of 1013.2 hectopascals; or
(b) in the case of any other flight, according to the system published by the
competent authority in relation to the area over which the aircraft is flying.
(2) An aircraft may be flown at a level other than the level required by paragraph (1) if it is flying in conformity with instructions given by an air traffic control unit or in accordance with notified en route holding patterns or in accordance with holding procedures notified in relation to an aerodrome.
(3) For the purposes of this rule ‘transition altitude’ means the altitude so notified in relation to flight over such area or areas as may be notified.
In other words, you can be IFR and below 3,000 ft/TA thus negating the requirement to fly quadrantals. I am guessing that the military get round this using the exemption stated at Rule 29 (c). Puntosaurus did not say that civilian traffic must abide by the minimum height rule AND fly quadrantals. He referred to Rule 28 which in turns refers to Rules 29 and 30 which, as you can see from the above, only requires compliance with the quadrantal rule when flying above 3,000 altitude or TA whichever is higher.
Sorry but I interpret this para
(2) An aircraft may be flown at a level other than the level required by paragraph (1) if it is flying in conformity with instructions given by an air traffic control unit or in accordance with notified en route holding patterns or in accordance with holding procedures notified in relation to an aerodrome.
to mean that unless you are instructed by ATC to fly below 3000' or are in a recognised holding pattern (either en route or aerodrome) then you are obliged to fly above 3000' at a quadrantal at night. I don't believe you making a decision to fly at 2000' for example is an air traffic instruction even if you are on a RIS.
(2) An aircraft may be flown at a level other than the level required by paragraph (1) if it is flying in conformity with instructions given by an air traffic control unit or in accordance with notified en route holding patterns or in accordance with holding procedures notified in relation to an aerodrome.
to mean that unless you are instructed by ATC to fly below 3000' or are in a recognised holding pattern (either en route or aerodrome) then you are obliged to fly above 3000' at a quadrantal at night. I don't believe you making a decision to fly at 2000' for example is an air traffic instruction even if you are on a RIS.
Tightgit
Crab, if you are talking about Outside CAS then I think you are misinterpreting the rule.
At night, outside CAS, you are complying with the Instrument Flight Rules if:
if > 3000 ft amsl then you must fly quadrantals (unless approved holding pattern/ notified route/ atc instruction etc)
if< 3000ft then you must remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface
I apologise if i am misinterpreting your interpretation and you already agree with this!!
At night, outside CAS, you are complying with the Instrument Flight Rules if:
if > 3000 ft amsl then you must fly quadrantals (unless approved holding pattern/ notified route/ atc instruction etc)
if< 3000ft then you must remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface
I apologise if i am misinterpreting your interpretation and you already agree with this!!
Last edited by handysnaks; 19th Nov 2006 at 20:40. Reason: Because, as rotorspeed kindly pointed out, a bit of it was misleading
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Have to disagree with you, Crab.
Rule 30 states "....in order to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules, an aircraft when in level flight above 3000 feet above mean sea level ......". It does not say you have to be above 3,000 ft to comply with IFR. . The sub-para (2) to which you refer allows ATC to modify your flight level or allow you to fly a hold without sticking to the usual FL as stated in the table to Rule 30 which I have not reproduced.
If what you say is correct, how do non-IR helicopter pilots fly around the Heathrow Zone at night? Flying at 3,000 ft and above would put them into the London TMA Class A airspace.
Rule 30 states "....in order to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules, an aircraft when in level flight above 3000 feet above mean sea level ......". It does not say you have to be above 3,000 ft to comply with IFR. . The sub-para (2) to which you refer allows ATC to modify your flight level or allow you to fly a hold without sticking to the usual FL as stated in the table to Rule 30 which I have not reproduced.
If what you say is correct, how do non-IR helicopter pilots fly around the Heathrow Zone at night? Flying at 3,000 ft and above would put them into the London TMA Class A airspace.
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Handysnaks
You do not need to be clear of cloud and in sight of the surface to be IFR below 3000ft. Being clear of cloud and in sight of the surface below 3000ft means you can fly IFR at less than 1000ft above any obstacle within 5nm.
You do not need to be clear of cloud and in sight of the surface to be IFR below 3000ft. Being clear of cloud and in sight of the surface below 3000ft means you can fly IFR at less than 1000ft above any obstacle within 5nm.
Tightgit
Rotorspeed, the point I was making here was the requirements for Non IMC IFR (or pretend Night VFR)!
However, on reflection I see your point and have edited the superfluous bit out!!
However, on reflection I see your point and have edited the superfluous bit out!!
Last edited by handysnaks; 19th Nov 2006 at 20:39. Reason: To concur with rotorspeeds point
Avoid imitations
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Shytorque - just out of interest, what heights do you normally do your night transits at? I only ask as a mil operator who can fly VFR at night whether or not we might encounter civ traffic below 3000' in the dark.
.If "1000 ft above the highest obstacle within 5nm" is below 3000 ft then I might elect to, or be forced to, fly below that altitude. Under the London TMA is a classic example - it begins at 2500 ft so folk routinely fly IFR (quite legally) at 2400 ft London QNH, or slightly below, bearing in mind that MSA further east reduces by a couple of hundred feet.
Other reasons to be below 3,000 ft? Same as you. I can still fly IFR and remain "VMC" which helps my job be a little easier. If I need to transit an area of poor radar coverage then it's obviously better for everyone to "see and be seen", rather than lurk uneccessarily in cloud.
I might want to find the most favourable winds (which might mean I don't need an extra refuel) or I might need to avoid the icing level, or turbulence.
I keep my lights on for your NVG (of course I do - no more tactical flying or VCPs for me). You keep your Mode C on for my TCAS, and we all keep looking out of the window, so we can all go about our business with an excellent level of safety, probably better than by day. I'll also be obtaining a LARs or other radar service whenever I can.
OK, I have reinterpreted my interpretation and I think I have it straight now - thank goodness for military exemptions to the ANO. The downside is that if I want to fly at night outside CAS below 2000' I have to book in to the night low flying system which you guys don't have to bother with.
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Visual Contact Flight
In the offshore world - presumably the same rules apply to other civvy operators - one can fly with a minimum 5k vis and 1200' cloudbase at 1000' at night, known as Visual Contact Flight, outside controlled airspace, onshore.
Very confusing issue - but PPLers are doing it all the time...
This is only an en-route ruling though - so can't help with the unlicensed sites bit.
Very confusing issue - but PPLers are doing it all the time...
This is only an en-route ruling though - so can't help with the unlicensed sites bit.
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Hey there DeltaNg,
Does that mean if you have the limits for visual contact flight at night, you do not carry alternate fuel??? Does visual contact mean a) you now follow VFR rules (UK no night VFR)!!!!! not IFR???
"presumably the same rules apply to other civvy operators"
Any other civvy operaters have the same rules?????
Cheers..
Does that mean if you have the limits for visual contact flight at night, you do not carry alternate fuel??? Does visual contact mean a) you now follow VFR rules (UK no night VFR)!!!!! not IFR???
"presumably the same rules apply to other civvy operators"
Any other civvy operaters have the same rules?????
Cheers..
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It's a bag of worms admittedly, but we routinely (in the winter) fly 'VCF'when IFR would be impossible due to icing at say 1500', fly the onshore section of the flight using the above criteria. Officially being "IFR" I would say, although no alternate fuel because of 'Coastal Airfield' dispensations. So from a common sense point of view - just flying visually at night. Whatever happened to Night Ratings anyway?
DeltaNg,
There are a number of confusing elements in your statements and they need clarifying. The rules you are quoting are the operational rules and, as you have mentioned offshore, I make the assumption that you are referring to JAR-OPS 3.
Each State is responsible for its own compliance with ICAO Annex 2 (Rules of the Air) - the conditions under which IFR is specified and the low level rules are not necessarily the same in all European States; for this reason the operational rules do not (normally) prescribe an operating height - which might itself be in conflict with a State's Rules of the Air - instead specifying the minimum cloud ceiling.
Hence, for overwater flights JAR-OPS 3.465 stipulates a ceiling of 600ft by day and 1200ft by night. For flight between helidecks with a sector length of less than 10nm, there is an exception to this policy as shuttling is permitted at 300ft by day and 500ft by night (a Risk Assessed policy that has been the de facto standard in the North Sea for a number of years).
VRF flight without alternate fuel has always been permitted for return to land base where the destination is at or above VFR limits; however, a Risk Assessed policy has permitted an IFR return to base without alternate fuel when the conditions at the land base satisfy a number of mitigating conditions (minimum cloud base, location near to the coast, the presence of a low level route which can be flown VFR from the coast in the conditions specified, the presence of weather radar which permits a let-down over the sea to 500ft, etc).
The reason this alleviation was introduced was to prevent scud-running back to shore in conditions where IFR alternate fuel had been (legitimately) traded for payload. It is expected that such flights will be conducted IFR with an instrument approach at the destination.
Flights in limited icing conditions are undertaken with a not-dissimilar set of rules that have been in existence in the UK for a number of years and which are now being introduced into JAR-OPS 3. These flights in icing (and limited icing) conditions are conducted in cloud and under IFR.
Jim
There are a number of confusing elements in your statements and they need clarifying. The rules you are quoting are the operational rules and, as you have mentioned offshore, I make the assumption that you are referring to JAR-OPS 3.
Each State is responsible for its own compliance with ICAO Annex 2 (Rules of the Air) - the conditions under which IFR is specified and the low level rules are not necessarily the same in all European States; for this reason the operational rules do not (normally) prescribe an operating height - which might itself be in conflict with a State's Rules of the Air - instead specifying the minimum cloud ceiling.
Hence, for overwater flights JAR-OPS 3.465 stipulates a ceiling of 600ft by day and 1200ft by night. For flight between helidecks with a sector length of less than 10nm, there is an exception to this policy as shuttling is permitted at 300ft by day and 500ft by night (a Risk Assessed policy that has been the de facto standard in the North Sea for a number of years).
VRF flight without alternate fuel has always been permitted for return to land base where the destination is at or above VFR limits; however, a Risk Assessed policy has permitted an IFR return to base without alternate fuel when the conditions at the land base satisfy a number of mitigating conditions (minimum cloud base, location near to the coast, the presence of a low level route which can be flown VFR from the coast in the conditions specified, the presence of weather radar which permits a let-down over the sea to 500ft, etc).
The reason this alleviation was introduced was to prevent scud-running back to shore in conditions where IFR alternate fuel had been (legitimately) traded for payload. It is expected that such flights will be conducted IFR with an instrument approach at the destination.
Flights in limited icing conditions are undertaken with a not-dissimilar set of rules that have been in existence in the UK for a number of years and which are now being introduced into JAR-OPS 3. These flights in icing (and limited icing) conditions are conducted in cloud and under IFR.
Jim
I've been flying 'civvy' helis for about 6 years now after a couple of decades flying military tackle with the likes of ShyT. I find this thread very interesting, and quite puzzling why it's generating such misunderstanding. I don't see where people are getting the '1000ft clear of obstacleswithin 5nm' bit from. I regularly fly night IFR below 1000ft agl, provided the met is ok and all the kit is working, particularly rad-alt. Let's just re-visit rule 29(d) to clarify that I'm still complying quite legally with IFR whilst flying entirely safely in VMC:-
29 Without prejudice to the provisions of rule 5, in order to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules an aircraft shall not fly at a height of less than 1000 feet above the highest obstacle within a distance of 5 nautical miles of the aircraft unless:
(a) it is necessary for the aircraft to do so in order to take off or land;
(b) the aircraft is flying on a route notified for the purposes of this rule;
(c) the aircraft has been otherwise authorised by the competent authority; or
(d) the aircraft is flying at an altitude not exceeding 3000 feet above mean sea level and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
Now I'll probably open up a hornets nest about the prudence of night transits below 1000ft; but having done it quite safely for years for the Queen, I don't see there should be too much to argue with. Incoming!!!!
J
29 Without prejudice to the provisions of rule 5, in order to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules an aircraft shall not fly at a height of less than 1000 feet above the highest obstacle within a distance of 5 nautical miles of the aircraft unless:
(a) it is necessary for the aircraft to do so in order to take off or land;
(b) the aircraft is flying on a route notified for the purposes of this rule;
(c) the aircraft has been otherwise authorised by the competent authority; or
(d) the aircraft is flying at an altitude not exceeding 3000 feet above mean sea level and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
Now I'll probably open up a hornets nest about the prudence of night transits below 1000ft; but having done it quite safely for years for the Queen, I don't see there should be too much to argue with. Incoming!!!!
J
