S-76D
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 71
Likes: 1
From: Canada
S76 and AW139??
People can complain or critisize the S76 but, at the end, it is a good aircraft. I always love to read all those comments about how great the 139 is
I flew the S76 for 13 years and I have been flying the 139 for 2.
I can tell you that there is huge difference cost between those aircrafts. I actually don't really understand why so many are buying the 139. In reality, state and offshore companies are buying because they are ready to spend an awful load of money to run those things. You need 2 or 3 to get one in service, maintenance is absolutely crazy, so, I don't know what is gone be with the S76D, but it can't be worse than the AW.
We had a S76 who crashed with a high vertical speed in trees. One of those trees went trough one engine, seats were still in good shape and no leaks
So, as usual, a lot of talk about those fuel cells for not to much at the end.
And, talking about de-icing, the 139 is certified with the FIPS. It has never worked, when I say never, it is NEVER
.
I am sure Sikorsky can't be worst.........
I flew the S76 for 13 years and I have been flying the 139 for 2.
I can tell you that there is huge difference cost between those aircrafts. I actually don't really understand why so many are buying the 139. In reality, state and offshore companies are buying because they are ready to spend an awful load of money to run those things. You need 2 or 3 to get one in service, maintenance is absolutely crazy, so, I don't know what is gone be with the S76D, but it can't be worse than the AW.
We had a S76 who crashed with a high vertical speed in trees. One of those trees went trough one engine, seats were still in good shape and no leaks
So, as usual, a lot of talk about those fuel cells for not to much at the end.
And, talking about de-icing, the 139 is certified with the FIPS. It has never worked, when I say never, it is NEVER
.I am sure Sikorsky can't be worst.........
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 642
Likes: 2
From: daworld
Hi Arcal,
Sounds like you're having some issues with your 139's. One might look at how your company fitted out your aircraft and how much lead in trainging your maintenance staff received, perhaps that could be a major contributor to your "issues".
Personally I've seen great dispatch rates for the 139 in the offshore market, between 90-95% on time departures for one offshore company that I have numbers for.
Maintenance is a breeze compared to the 76. No tail rotor cables to replace access is easy to most components once you know the easy way to get to them. Ever changed a park brake valve on a 76???
As to cost, a non FIPS offshore 139 is closer to the cost of an offshore configured S76 than you would think, as Agusta give some pretty good discounts for bulk contract signings. Hourly Direct Operating Costs are very close to a 76C++. Very close. If the 139 didn't gulp fuel like it does, it would probably be cheaper to run per hour, but then, fuel is the cheapest part of flying!
FIPS is VERY heavy and expensive. I'm not sure how some operators can justify the weight and expense. How often would you guys actually fly in icing conditions.
The 76 is indeed built strong., did you hear about the 76 in Nigeria that kicked off the AC Gen because the RRPM got so low?? Blades coned so much that the dampers pulled out of the main rotor blade mounts!
The fuel tanks might not have ruptured in the incident you speak of, but try taxiing over rough ground. Personally I've seen three 76's where the mainwheel has caught in a rut and pulled the gear off the forward bulkhead, which creates a nice big puddle of fuel.
There are good things about the 76 and good things about the 139, however I think we can all agree that Sikorsky missed the boat when they came up with the 76D.
A clean sheet design would have been the way to go and it isn't too late, look at Bell, they're only just starting out on the 525 to try and catch up to the 139 and EC175. They obviously believe there is enough room in the market for another model in this weight range.
The proof is in the number of orders they (don't) have and in the number of orders that AW and EC have for their medium-heavy twins.
I liked working on the S76. Job for life! But I enjoy working on the AW139 more. Mechanically it is about the simplest beastie I've worked on in the past 22 odd years, except maybe for the Bell 47!!
Hopefully your experience will improve as your operation gains experience with what is to you guys, a new generation aircraft.
Sounds like you're having some issues with your 139's. One might look at how your company fitted out your aircraft and how much lead in trainging your maintenance staff received, perhaps that could be a major contributor to your "issues".
Personally I've seen great dispatch rates for the 139 in the offshore market, between 90-95% on time departures for one offshore company that I have numbers for.
Maintenance is a breeze compared to the 76. No tail rotor cables to replace access is easy to most components once you know the easy way to get to them. Ever changed a park brake valve on a 76???
As to cost, a non FIPS offshore 139 is closer to the cost of an offshore configured S76 than you would think, as Agusta give some pretty good discounts for bulk contract signings. Hourly Direct Operating Costs are very close to a 76C++. Very close. If the 139 didn't gulp fuel like it does, it would probably be cheaper to run per hour, but then, fuel is the cheapest part of flying!
FIPS is VERY heavy and expensive. I'm not sure how some operators can justify the weight and expense. How often would you guys actually fly in icing conditions.
The 76 is indeed built strong., did you hear about the 76 in Nigeria that kicked off the AC Gen because the RRPM got so low?? Blades coned so much that the dampers pulled out of the main rotor blade mounts!
The fuel tanks might not have ruptured in the incident you speak of, but try taxiing over rough ground. Personally I've seen three 76's where the mainwheel has caught in a rut and pulled the gear off the forward bulkhead, which creates a nice big puddle of fuel.
There are good things about the 76 and good things about the 139, however I think we can all agree that Sikorsky missed the boat when they came up with the 76D.
A clean sheet design would have been the way to go and it isn't too late, look at Bell, they're only just starting out on the 525 to try and catch up to the 139 and EC175. They obviously believe there is enough room in the market for another model in this weight range.
The proof is in the number of orders they (don't) have and in the number of orders that AW and EC have for their medium-heavy twins.
I liked working on the S76. Job for life! But I enjoy working on the AW139 more. Mechanically it is about the simplest beastie I've worked on in the past 22 odd years, except maybe for the Bell 47!!
Hopefully your experience will improve as your operation gains experience with what is to you guys, a new generation aircraft.
Last edited by noooby; 26th January 2013 at 02:48.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 71
Likes: 1
From: Canada
Fips
Well, If we had it,we will be using it quiet a bit in Winter time.At our base, our 2 main destinations have an airport and IFR approach available, so we would use it. Not that I miss going in ice because I don't really believe that we would not get in trouble .
Our enginer prefer the S76. It is true that we have many problems because of our organisation and their lack of understanding about helicopters, but the work who has to be done on the 139 is huge.
I don't know how the 76D will behave, but I think they still have a market.
I am very scared about the new Bell and when I see what kind of problems we face on the 139, you can expect a lot of trouble with this new machine who anything to do with any Bell product.
Of course, Sikorsky could have done a brand new model, but in this case, you have to go for way bigger than the S76.
.Our enginer prefer the S76. It is true that we have many problems because of our organisation and their lack of understanding about helicopters, but the work who has to be done on the 139 is huge.
I don't know how the 76D will behave, but I think they still have a market.
I am very scared about the new Bell and when I see what kind of problems we face on the 139, you can expect a lot of trouble with this new machine who anything to do with any Bell product.
Of course, Sikorsky could have done a brand new model, but in this case, you have to go for way bigger than the S76.
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
From: Aer
Bristow buying the "D"?
A Bristow S-76D to be unveiled at Heli Expo?
Apparently part of a double figure Bristow order in full offshore configuration with big emergency exit compliant windows, all to be announced at Heli Expo. It may even get the "lbs" weight of a man increase in MTOW.
Apparently part of a double figure Bristow order in full offshore configuration with big emergency exit compliant windows, all to be announced at Heli Expo. It may even get the "lbs" weight of a man increase in MTOW.
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 522
Likes: 77
From: USA
Bonanza of D orders at the expo, including more than 2 dozen from Bristow!
Bristow Places Order for Up To 26 S-76D
Bristow Places Order for Up To 26 S-76D
S76D - Thoughts.
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
From: Hassocks, Mid-Sussex
Bristows are probably the best ones to ask about this as they will be keeping close tabs on its final development and introduction to service.
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/249352-s-76d.html
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/249352-s-76d.html
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: ABZ
Mmm..
I'm sorry Sans but there's a few mistakes there on the C++.
The average fuel fow is 700lbs/hr, even an A+ is 640lbs/hr.
155kts is the VNE of an S76 from A-C++. VNO is 10knts below VNE depending on Density Altitude.
Long range cruise speed is still VNO, 145kts-ish, you set 80% and normally get 145kts unless you're max all up weight.
Range is actually about 350-380, sticking 1900lbs in the tank is akin to getting John Goodman in to a shopping trolley after a night out.
Hope these corrections help to put the S76D in perspective. Sans, I'm aware you were directly quoting from Flight International so please don't take it as me being a pedantic git, just trying to inform..
The average fuel fow is 700lbs/hr, even an A+ is 640lbs/hr.
155kts is the VNE of an S76 from A-C++. VNO is 10knts below VNE depending on Density Altitude.
Long range cruise speed is still VNO, 145kts-ish, you set 80% and normally get 145kts unless you're max all up weight.
Range is actually about 350-380, sticking 1900lbs in the tank is akin to getting John Goodman in to a shopping trolley after a night out.
Hope these corrections help to put the S76D in perspective. Sans, I'm aware you were directly quoting from Flight International so please don't take it as me being a pedantic git, just trying to inform..
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
From: Utrecht, Nederland
.. from my visit to the S76D testing at Leadville, CO few days ago.
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
From: Royal Leamington Spa
Since you have just been there, can you provide any update on the program, when the first delivery will take place + any problems they are having?
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,060
Likes: 563
From: Auckland, New Zealand
Anthony is right, best to contact the media people at Sikorsky. While I spent a few days with the guys there I am not at liberty to say who is getting what and when and how the program is going
If I start doing that then wont be invited back again
Ned
If I start doing that then wont be invited back again
Ned
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 787
Likes: 44
From: Europe
.
Just go to their website, all the informations are there :
"October 15, 2012. STRATFORD, Connecticut - The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has approved the Type Certificate for the S76D helicopter, moving the aircraft forward to its highly anticipated delivery into the medium-sized marketplace.
The S-76D helicopter has a current backlog approaching a half-billion dollars and is expected to begin deliveries later this quarter.
Our customers are excited to begin receiving the S-76D into their fleets."
Their customers are maybe excited but surely very patient !
.
Just go to their website, all the informations are there :
"October 15, 2012. STRATFORD, Connecticut - The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has approved the Type Certificate for the S76D helicopter, moving the aircraft forward to its highly anticipated delivery into the medium-sized marketplace.
The S-76D helicopter has a current backlog approaching a half-billion dollars and is expected to begin deliveries later this quarter.
Our customers are excited to begin receiving the S-76D into their fleets."
Their customers are maybe excited but surely very patient !
.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 876
Likes: 0
From: Inside the Industry
But, the one at the HAI show was not it flyable form. None have actually been "delivered" yet, as in to a customer who is actually operating one. The D has taken 7 or 8 years to develop. Its only a derivative with new engines and cockpit + plastic blades, not a new type. Throughout its life it has been starved of investment and engineering resources. It had a large personnel turnover in the program.
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
From: Hassocks, Mid-Sussex
Their customers are maybe excited but surely very patient !
I am surmising that the integration of the "all new" Pratt & Whitney 210S is a factor in the delay but as there has been very little by way of clear information from Sikorsky on the ongoing delays, who knows?
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 727
Likes: 47
From: Earth
The real story behind the soap opera that has been the S76D involved a lot of politics involving Shell with the program through the mid 2000s. The acquisition/incorporation of Keystone also had a hand in things.
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
From: North America
It's only a derivative with new engines and cockpit + plastic blades, not a
new type.
new type.