Fatal Crash - Tycoon killed
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Fatal Crash - Tycoon killed
Another tragic accident is reported which I suspect will have repercussions within the industry. My condolences to the families affected.
Howard Kerzner, one of the tycoons behind the plan to turn the Millennium Dome into a "supercasino", is reported to have died in a helicopter crash yesterday.
According to reports the 42 year old Mr. Kerzner was killed along with three others, were two officers in the Dominican armed forces and the son of a US property developer, when the helicopter, a Robinson 44, crashed into a building in a tourist resort in Sousa on the north coast of the Dominican Republic.
Howard Kerzner, one of the tycoons behind the plan to turn the Millennium Dome into a "supercasino", is reported to have died in a helicopter crash yesterday.
According to reports the 42 year old Mr. Kerzner was killed along with three others, were two officers in the Dominican armed forces and the son of a US property developer, when the helicopter, a Robinson 44, crashed into a building in a tourist resort in Sousa on the north coast of the Dominican Republic.
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Plenty on Google News
eg:
LA Times: "Howard "Butch" Kerzner, chief executive officer of resort developer Kerzner International Ltd., died Wednesday in a helicopter accident in the Dominican Republic, the Bahamas-based company said. He was 42.
Kerzner was surveying the Caribbean nation for potential hotel sites. Resort and casino operator Kerzner International has stakes in five resorts in Mauritius and one in Mexico and manages a resort in Dubai."
eg:
LA Times: "Howard "Butch" Kerzner, chief executive officer of resort developer Kerzner International Ltd., died Wednesday in a helicopter accident in the Dominican Republic, the Bahamas-based company said. He was 42.
Kerzner was surveying the Caribbean nation for potential hotel sites. Resort and casino operator Kerzner International has stakes in five resorts in Mauritius and one in Mexico and manages a resort in Dubai."
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Kerzner was clearly a wealthy man. Beats me why people don't buy the greatest safety they can afford when they charter a helicopter. At the end of the day a professionally crewed IFR twin is going to be safer than an R44. I suppose it may well be ignorance - because a piston VFR charter is legal they assume it's safe, but we all know safety is relative. And generally more money buys more of it - which is right. Similarly those that cannot afford an IFR twin should not be deprived the opportunity to fly, providing it is reasonably safe, which of course it is.
It may be no such aircraft were available in the Dom Rep, but there is an issue here. The UK Matthew Harding accident 5 or so years ago being a case in point. How do you educate the customer without provoking unreasonable fear?
It may be no such aircraft were available in the Dom Rep, but there is an issue here. The UK Matthew Harding accident 5 or so years ago being a case in point. How do you educate the customer without provoking unreasonable fear?
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Dear Mr Rotorspeed or lack there of,
Pilot error or mechanical failure can happen in your fancy wiz bang IFR twin, just as much as it can in an R44.
Also having lots of money doesn't mean you should live in a bubble, what would be the piont in that? Besides the view is much better out of an R44 than a IFR twin, on a nice sunny day anyway.
Pilot error or mechanical failure can happen in your fancy wiz bang IFR twin, just as much as it can in an R44.
Also having lots of money doesn't mean you should live in a bubble, what would be the piont in that? Besides the view is much better out of an R44 than a IFR twin, on a nice sunny day anyway.
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'Loss of tail section' now reported as suspected cause.
Tycoon's crashed helicopter caused by tail problem.
I/C
Tycoon's crashed helicopter caused by tail problem.
I/C
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LNT
I just knew someone would get humpy and over-defensive of the R44 following my earlier post, in a naive way!
Just so you understand my view, I think the R44 is a great helicopter. Read my previous post carefully.
Go and check out the statistics of fatal accident rate with IFR twins with VFR pistons. Or more expediently just think what regulations exist and consider that there just might be a teeny bit of rationale behind them.
The fact is pilot error and mechanical failure to cause a fatality does NOT happen as often in an IFR twin, even if it's not fancy wiz bang.
But I do agree with you, the view would have been better in an R44. It's just tragic that Mr Kerzner is not around to remember it.
I just knew someone would get humpy and over-defensive of the R44 following my earlier post, in a naive way!
Just so you understand my view, I think the R44 is a great helicopter. Read my previous post carefully.
Go and check out the statistics of fatal accident rate with IFR twins with VFR pistons. Or more expediently just think what regulations exist and consider that there just might be a teeny bit of rationale behind them.
The fact is pilot error and mechanical failure to cause a fatality does NOT happen as often in an IFR twin, even if it's not fancy wiz bang.
But I do agree with you, the view would have been better in an R44. It's just tragic that Mr Kerzner is not around to remember it.
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1 Tycoon (Kerzner), 2 army officials (perhaps ensuring the 44 didn't overfly any dubious locations?), and the pilot.
But it is a curious feature the two army bods, I'll admit.
But it is a curious feature the two army bods, I'll admit.
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This isn't to say that the high hour pilot can't make a mistake, but he's probably already made a few and learned from them.
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So the poor punter on holidays doing joy flights can only afford the el-cheapo pilot at the controls of the R44, but the mega rich guy can afford an IFR multi crew twin.
The R44 pilot doing multiple T/O and landings, with various W&B, often in a high DA area, and we consider it safe enough for some, but not a businessman?!?!?!
Pilots flying safely or not is the responsibility of a Chief Pilot, not the fault of the helicopter that they fly.
The R44 pilot doing multiple T/O and landings, with various W&B, often in a high DA area, and we consider it safe enough for some, but not a businessman?!?!?!
Pilots flying safely or not is the responsibility of a Chief Pilot, not the fault of the helicopter that they fly.
Last edited by CYHeli; 16th Oct 2006 at 06:49. Reason: spiling mistoke
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Any accident is tragic in our industry, whoever is flying, but why do the newspapers continue to sensationalise everything or just write pure bulls**t?
One reported the following factors:- Eye witnesses saw the aircraft break up in flight. This was possibly down to mechanical failure of the aircraft, bad weather and pilot error.
Ok, So I guess the pilot could have been having an off day but I think the facts should come out first before writing that sort of c**p!
One reported the following factors:- Eye witnesses saw the aircraft break up in flight. This was possibly down to mechanical failure of the aircraft, bad weather and pilot error.
Ok, So I guess the pilot could have been having an off day but I think the facts should come out first before writing that sort of c**p!
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<hijack thread>
I would say pilots flying safely is the responsibility of themselves, their training, experience and their physical state (illness, medication, sleep, alchohol...) I suppose the chief pilot shouldn't hire or continue to employ the if they are unsafe (though it's probably hard to see "unsafe" habits in an interview and training process where the new hire is on his best behavior).
I agree (though some will not) that the R44 can be almost as safe as the big twin in the right circumstances.
OTOH, I think that in general, pilot experience adds to safety. As guys build hours in the 44 (22, 206, 350, whatever) they get the opportunity to move up into "bigger and better" iron and they take that experience with them which is great for their new employer, but less than ideal for the owner of the 44 who then has to hire a new (probably fairly "new") pilot.
Pretty much...
Line up on a ramp somewhere, an R44, and an AS350 both giving the same sightseeing tour. Now go over to the pilots, and ask how much they get paid. Odds are if you can get them to stop cursing and ranting, you'll find the A-star pilot makes more money than the 44 pilot for the same job, and when the 44 pilot gets enough hours (usually 1,000 to 1,500) he jumps to the other company so he can fly turbines and make the big bucks (and they're cooler right? Well louder and smellier at any rate.)
Now go to the theoretical front desks of these competing companies, and ask how much $ to take the family up on "the adventure of a lifetime", I bet the 44's a cheaper tour.
I can sense the coming argument of the "I've seen 500 hour pilots that I'd send my family up with, and 5,000 hour pilots that I would be afraid to ride the bus with." variety, but this doesn't enter into this scenario. These are just "average" pilots.
This is of course all moot if the failure was mechanical (though we could discuss the typical mx. regimes of r44s vs. turbine singles vs. ifr twins).
</hijack thread>
EDIT: I'm discussing here the theoretical safety of different helicopters and pilot experience levels, not the specific instance that started this thread. I know nothing more about the incident than has been stated here, and for all I know the pilot may have been the best in the buisness. Condolences to all involved.
I would say pilots flying safely is the responsibility of themselves, their training, experience and their physical state (illness, medication, sleep, alchohol...) I suppose the chief pilot shouldn't hire or continue to employ the if they are unsafe (though it's probably hard to see "unsafe" habits in an interview and training process where the new hire is on his best behavior).
I agree (though some will not) that the R44 can be almost as safe as the big twin in the right circumstances.
OTOH, I think that in general, pilot experience adds to safety. As guys build hours in the 44 (22, 206, 350, whatever) they get the opportunity to move up into "bigger and better" iron and they take that experience with them which is great for their new employer, but less than ideal for the owner of the 44 who then has to hire a new (probably fairly "new") pilot.
So the poor punter on holidays doing joy flights can only afford the el-cheapo pilot at the controls of the R44, but the mega rich guy can afford an IFR multi crew twin.
Line up on a ramp somewhere, an R44, and an AS350 both giving the same sightseeing tour. Now go over to the pilots, and ask how much they get paid. Odds are if you can get them to stop cursing and ranting, you'll find the A-star pilot makes more money than the 44 pilot for the same job, and when the 44 pilot gets enough hours (usually 1,000 to 1,500) he jumps to the other company so he can fly turbines and make the big bucks (and they're cooler right? Well louder and smellier at any rate.)
Now go to the theoretical front desks of these competing companies, and ask how much $ to take the family up on "the adventure of a lifetime", I bet the 44's a cheaper tour.
I can sense the coming argument of the "I've seen 500 hour pilots that I'd send my family up with, and 5,000 hour pilots that I would be afraid to ride the bus with." variety, but this doesn't enter into this scenario. These are just "average" pilots.
This is of course all moot if the failure was mechanical (though we could discuss the typical mx. regimes of r44s vs. turbine singles vs. ifr twins).
</hijack thread>
EDIT: I'm discussing here the theoretical safety of different helicopters and pilot experience levels, not the specific instance that started this thread. I know nothing more about the incident than has been stated here, and for all I know the pilot may have been the best in the buisness. Condolences to all involved.
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Which is safer?
I have worked the military, civvy singles, and civvy twins both IFR and VFR. Yes I have gained experience, and hopefully become a safer pilot with it, but regardless of that the civil single flying has been by far the most challenging and if you are looking at safety the least safe, not unsafe. I have felt comfortable with most of my flying, but have more often felt short of options in a single. The IFR work is so well regulated that it is inherently more safe. A single pilot single on, say, powerline patrols is badly placed should anything go wrong, yet is allowed to do the work. Statistically, I am sure mechanical failure is very unlikely, but it happens and it has to be on your mind.
As for a Chief Pilot being responsible for the safety of his aircraft. Well in an ideal world where a small operator could pay enough to pick and choose at will who it employs, then yes a CP, with enough time to monitor all his pilots, could make a difference. In the real world, he will employ pretty much anyone he can get and hope to hang on to them if they proved to be any good. Most "good" pilots will move on, as will most "adequate" ones. By the time a CP knows his pilot, he has either lost him/her or that pilot has gained enough experience to be of some value over a complete unknown.
I don't envy the job of most CPs, especially with the increasing trend toward non-aviation experienced senior management.
As for a Chief Pilot being responsible for the safety of his aircraft. Well in an ideal world where a small operator could pay enough to pick and choose at will who it employs, then yes a CP, with enough time to monitor all his pilots, could make a difference. In the real world, he will employ pretty much anyone he can get and hope to hang on to them if they proved to be any good. Most "good" pilots will move on, as will most "adequate" ones. By the time a CP knows his pilot, he has either lost him/her or that pilot has gained enough experience to be of some value over a complete unknown.
I don't envy the job of most CPs, especially with the increasing trend toward non-aviation experienced senior management.
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Some news about the crash R44 crash in the D.R
I felt very affected by this accident as the pilot was a friend of mine.I used to work for that company and served as flight instructor in it untill january this year.
Robinson sent two experts to examine the remains of the helicopter and I heard that they found that a section of the blade separated in flight(bad bonding,corrosion????) and caused the subsequent loss of control of the helicopter and tailboom strike .I found similar occurences searching in the internet.(www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/1995/A95_1_8.pdf)
As for why Mr.Kerzner he was actually flying in a twin a BO105 but as the R44 was about to depart a friend of Kerzner asked him to join him in the doomed r44 so he would have someone to talk to.
As for the question about why military pilots let me explain how it works here in the Dominican Republic.
Everybody knows that an aviation career is expensive and especially helicopter training. Most helicopters pilots are from the military in the D.R;what usually happens is that they get a special permit to fly in civilian companies where the pay is way better than what you get staying at the base and usually not doing much flying....
Hope that investigations will give full details of what happened.
My condolences to all families involved.
Robinson sent two experts to examine the remains of the helicopter and I heard that they found that a section of the blade separated in flight(bad bonding,corrosion????) and caused the subsequent loss of control of the helicopter and tailboom strike .I found similar occurences searching in the internet.(www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/1995/A95_1_8.pdf)
As for why Mr.Kerzner he was actually flying in a twin a BO105 but as the R44 was about to depart a friend of Kerzner asked him to join him in the doomed r44 so he would have someone to talk to.
As for the question about why military pilots let me explain how it works here in the Dominican Republic.
Everybody knows that an aviation career is expensive and especially helicopter training. Most helicopters pilots are from the military in the D.R;what usually happens is that they get a special permit to fly in civilian companies where the pay is way better than what you get staying at the base and usually not doing much flying....
Hope that investigations will give full details of what happened.
My condolences to all families involved.
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Here is a link to a picture of the R44 involved
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?i...next_id=NEXTID
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?i...next_id=NEXTID
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Kerzner was clearly a wealthy man. Beats me why people don't buy the greatest safety they can afford when they charter a helicopter. At the end of the day a professionally crewed IFR twin is going to be safer than an R44. I suppose it may well be ignorance - because a piston VFR charter is legal they assume it's safe, but we all know safety is relative. And generally more money buys more of it - which is right. Similarly those that cannot afford an IFR twin should not be deprived the opportunity to fly, providing it is reasonably safe, which of course it is.
It may be no such aircraft were available in the Dom Rep, but there is an issue here. The UK Matthew Harding accident 5 or so years ago being a case in point. How do you educate the customer without provoking unreasonable fear?
It may be no such aircraft were available in the Dom Rep, but there is an issue here. The UK Matthew Harding accident 5 or so years ago being a case in point. How do you educate the customer without provoking unreasonable fear?
Rotor: you read my mind,even though I am not in you legue due to my limited knowledge,I know I would have had a Bolkow,Auguster or something instead of a R44,I have nothing against it,but it`s like me turning down a LandRover for cross country and choosing a KIA even though I have enough cash in the bank to buy seven HumVees.
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[QUOTE=Sgt.Peppeh;2925070]Rotor: you read my mind,even though I am not in you legue due to my limited knowledge,I know I would have had a Bolkow,Auguster or something instead of a R44,I have nothing against Robinsons,but it`s like me turning down a LandRover for cross country and choosing a KIA even though I have enough cash in the bank to buy seven HumVees.:confused
