Sikorsky X2 coaxial heli developments.
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Its in hibernation down in WPB from what I hear.
Could this be the reason for the X2 hibernation?
Dave
Last edited by Dave_Jackson; 11th Jan 2009 at 17:38.
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CEFOSKEY, as long as it is only in hibernation. It would be a great shame if this machine did not reach its full potential.
Dave, that article was written back in July 08, before the greedy bankers successfully broke the economy.
VDTR just looks like more stuff to go wrong to me. Something about keeping the design simple.
Dave, that article was written back in July 08, before the greedy bankers successfully broke the economy.
VDTR just looks like more stuff to go wrong to me. Something about keeping the design simple.
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Mart (Graviman),
Earlier, you were understandably concerned about the complexity of the AeroVantage's transition mechanism.
At the risk of appearing promotional, what about this newer mechanism?
DESIGN: AeroVantage - Transition Mechanism - Proposed Method - 1x2 - Extendable Tubes
Is it time to start a thread on Sikorsky's Variable Diameter Tilt Rotor?
Dave
VDTR just looks like more stuff to go wrong to me. Something about keeping the design simple.
At the risk of appearing promotional, what about this newer mechanism?
DESIGN: AeroVantage - Transition Mechanism - Proposed Method - 1x2 - Extendable Tubes
It extends and retracts the forward PropRotor, in a manner similar to Sikorsky's VDTR, except w/o the problem of centrifugal force.
It rotates both PropRotors in a manner similar to, but simpler than, Bell's V22.
___________________Is it time to start a thread on Sikorsky's Variable Diameter Tilt Rotor?
Dave
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I remember doing project about ABC in early '80s - it struck me as a fantastic concept with plenty of scope for development. It seemed rather a pity that it appeared to have been dropped in favour of the tilt-rotor, which is surely a more unweildy machine?
Times move on & things develop but great to see the X2 flying - how about something of this ilk for Police work? Must be the coolest way to improve response times!!
Pretty good for corporate work too!
Times move on & things develop but great to see the X2 flying - how about something of this ilk for Police work? Must be the coolest way to improve response times!!
Pretty good for corporate work too!
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Sultan, I don't diss the tilt-rotor, just remark that it appears "unwieldy in comparison". When one landed on a UK aircraft carrier last year, it was impressive, but there's no way you could strike one down into the hangar as easily as an ABC type machine.
That said, horses for courses, the two design types ought to be able to fulfil completely different roles. T/R for vertical or STO lift of troops/pax with rapid transport & delivery; ABC for rapid response (but probably shorter range) delivery of sensors/weaponary to an area and/or efficient loiter on task - hence my comment about Police role. I would have thought that hovering over a built-up area at midnight in a T/R machine would be a complete waste of its talents!
True, the ABC has not yet fulfilled its design/speed potential but "with plenty of scope for development", had it had the same billions poured into it since the 80s that have funded T/R development, I would expect that speeds wouldn't be dramatically different - despite the two designs being quintessentially for different roles.
That said, horses for courses, the two design types ought to be able to fulfil completely different roles. T/R for vertical or STO lift of troops/pax with rapid transport & delivery; ABC for rapid response (but probably shorter range) delivery of sensors/weaponary to an area and/or efficient loiter on task - hence my comment about Police role. I would have thought that hovering over a built-up area at midnight in a T/R machine would be a complete waste of its talents!
True, the ABC has not yet fulfilled its design/speed potential but "with plenty of scope for development", had it had the same billions poured into it since the 80s that have funded T/R development, I would expect that speeds wouldn't be dramatically different - despite the two designs being quintessentially for different roles.
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I say good on ya to Sikorsky for finally spending time and effort into helicopter design and concept prototyping
In the current world almost anything is possible, movement in the helicopter industy compared with other trends is pittyfull...
If helicopter manufacturers and designers thought as the guys at IBM did im sure the helicopter would be so differtent and refined by now, a computer can calculate optimum blade desigh without even flying the thing... beoing 777 designed completely from CAD plans all wing design testing too
Y is it so hard for things to change... The way helicopters are made to day is the same as it was 50 years ago... im sure a safer, stronger and lighter airframe can be developed using modern techology
So much weight could be reduced by using modern materials, Run the whole helicopter and all its status and hours straight to a small as computer downloadable by the engineers
make a difference and push boundries, we are human
Good on ya guys its a start in the right direction
In the current world almost anything is possible, movement in the helicopter industy compared with other trends is pittyfull...
If helicopter manufacturers and designers thought as the guys at IBM did im sure the helicopter would be so differtent and refined by now, a computer can calculate optimum blade desigh without even flying the thing... beoing 777 designed completely from CAD plans all wing design testing too
Y is it so hard for things to change... The way helicopters are made to day is the same as it was 50 years ago... im sure a safer, stronger and lighter airframe can be developed using modern techology
So much weight could be reduced by using modern materials, Run the whole helicopter and all its status and hours straight to a small as computer downloadable by the engineers
make a difference and push boundries, we are human
Good on ya guys its a start in the right direction
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ChopperFAN said;
"Y is it so hard for things to change..."
"Y is it so hard for things to change..."
While the West is preoccupied with fiscal capitalism, one more company in the XMiddleX Far East is advancing productive capitalism; $1.2-bn helicopter production facility c/w research & development
Dave
______________
Trivia;
The Islamic religion does not believe in charging interest for the loaning of money (usury). The Christian religion did not believe in charging interest for the loaning of money until the 16th century. The Jewish religion has allowed the charging interest for over two thousand years, but not to charge interest to other Jews.
The interest on debt (personal, corporate & governmental) is the reason for today's problems.
Last edited by Dave_Jackson; 17th Jan 2009 at 00:00.
Hate to correct you Dave Jackson but I think you'll find China is in the far east !
Please don't be like the lady in an education shop in California who asked me to show her and her children on a globe where " Eyerak" was after pointing at Brazil !!!
Please don't be like the lady in an education shop in California who asked me to show her and her children on a globe where " Eyerak" was after pointing at Brazil !!!
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Dave, as long as your AeroVantage uses only pivots, with no sliding mechanisms. Bushes are light and reliable, sliding mechanisms under load (at say 2g to allow some manouvreability) are heavy and prone to sticking as they become worn/notched. The high disc loading will still limit hover capability (failsafe), and i'm still not sure why try to keep both prop/rotors in the same streamtube (but only in one ideal flight condition).
---
Good to see support for X2 is still out there. CEFOSKEY, thanks (again) for keeping us informed about this fascinating project.
I started this thread because i recognise that X2 (ABC) is a relatively simple solution for the high speed helicopter. There are (many) other solutions out there, and i wish all good luck. To me X2 remains the best compromise engineering solution....
---
Good to see support for X2 is still out there. CEFOSKEY, thanks (again) for keeping us informed about this fascinating project.
I started this thread because i recognise that X2 (ABC) is a relatively simple solution for the high speed helicopter. There are (many) other solutions out there, and i wish all good luck. To me X2 remains the best compromise engineering solution....
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If helicopter manufacturers and designers thought as the guys at IBM did im sure the helicopter would be so differtent and refined by now, a computer can calculate optimum blade desigh without even flying the thing... beoing 777 designed completely from CAD plans all wing design testing too
Y is it so hard for things to change... The way helicopters are made to day is the same as it was 50 years ago... im sure a safer, stronger and lighter airframe can be developed using modern techology
Y is it so hard for things to change... The way helicopters are made to day is the same as it was 50 years ago... im sure a safer, stronger and lighter airframe can be developed using modern techology
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CEFOSKEY, i recently considered moving across into the testing side of helicopters. It strikes me as a fascinating area to develope in. I chose to move into diesel piston reciprocating engines because most of the development FEA/CAD software and techniques are similar. Ultimately it came down to me beating a path homewards - not that i didn't enjoy five years in Scotland...
----
ChopperFan, one must be careful comparing electronic hardware to mechanical hardware. A silicon chip can advance without any fundamental increase in the material performance - you improve the manufacturing technique to make each transistor smaller. A helicopter must test the fundamental stresses of the materials for any reasonable performance.
Actually there have been many significant advances in helicopter design, but only apparent to specialists. The materials allow for increased time between overhauls, the exhaust emissions have gone down, and the same payload can be carried further for less fuel. Of course these have been brought about by the silicon revolution, but ultimately this just shows how up against the limits the mechanical systems are.
----
ChopperFan, one must be careful comparing electronic hardware to mechanical hardware. A silicon chip can advance without any fundamental increase in the material performance - you improve the manufacturing technique to make each transistor smaller. A helicopter must test the fundamental stresses of the materials for any reasonable performance.
Actually there have been many significant advances in helicopter design, but only apparent to specialists. The materials allow for increased time between overhauls, the exhaust emissions have gone down, and the same payload can be carried further for less fuel. Of course these have been brought about by the silicon revolution, but ultimately this just shows how up against the limits the mechanical systems are.
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Graviman,
Thanks for the comments, particularly your concern about the wear on the extendable mechanism. The twin-rotor hover ~to~ coaxial-rotor cruise I would argue, but this is the X2 thread.
Dave
Thanks for the comments, particularly your concern about the wear on the extendable mechanism. The twin-rotor hover ~to~ coaxial-rotor cruise I would argue, but this is the X2 thread.
Dave
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Graviman, I agree with you on me comparing it... its not the best way to compare them. I was poorly trying to say how its good that Sikorsky was getting out there and spending money on new drivetrain concetps... its breaking new ground... Thats awesome
Sorry Svenestron, I ment more airframes developed and concets tested and used in the comercial market. Im sure almost all havent changed much from their base designs... cant we find a better, safer airframe? Most are sheet and rivets and we all know how soft aluminium is, any time it doesnt come down straight chances are so slim... Im sure a way to get the human cargo and yourself to the ground can be found? saftey chute, pod or airbag stlye systems
Wouldnt there be a better way to design most parts too, even avionics should be tiny in helicopters by now, cant mechanical gauges be made lighter and way more acurate... when did they change last?
People thinking and someone listening is the only way things change
I like thinking of new ways to do things, im always drawing and making things like a backyard mcgyver, but what change can i have...?
Sorry if i offend... Im obviously not very smart, but i have a peal passion for helicopters, and i wanna break new ground before i die and make an impact
Simon
Sorry Svenestron, I ment more airframes developed and concets tested and used in the comercial market. Im sure almost all havent changed much from their base designs... cant we find a better, safer airframe? Most are sheet and rivets and we all know how soft aluminium is, any time it doesnt come down straight chances are so slim... Im sure a way to get the human cargo and yourself to the ground can be found? saftey chute, pod or airbag stlye systems
Wouldnt there be a better way to design most parts too, even avionics should be tiny in helicopters by now, cant mechanical gauges be made lighter and way more acurate... when did they change last?
People thinking and someone listening is the only way things change
I like thinking of new ways to do things, im always drawing and making things like a backyard mcgyver, but what change can i have...?
Sorry if i offend... Im obviously not very smart, but i have a peal passion for helicopters, and i wanna break new ground before i die and make an impact
Simon
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Research, Development and Rotorcraft
The subject of improvements to rotorcraft invariably brings up phrases such as;
Composite construction
More efficient engine
Light weight avionics
Piezoelectric actuators
The above sounds like Igor when he said that he had to wait for OTHERS to develop a better power/weight engine.
Meanwhile Focke and Flettner were building and flying their helicopters.
____________________________
This thread is discussing the regurgitation of the previous XH-59A ABC. IMHO, any serious desire to improve the ABC concept will require research and development that is rotorcraft specific, such as;
Active blade twist.
Reverse velocity blades.
Higher cyclic rate flight controls
The essence of rotorcraft is the 'Rotor'
________________________
China has ten times more engineering students than the US. If the 'West' wants to decrease the rising unemployment it might consider spending its tax dollars on sending hundreds of thousands back to school.
Or, do we just wait until Rotorland moves to the far east?
Dave
Composite construction
More efficient engine
Light weight avionics
Piezoelectric actuators
The above sounds like Igor when he said that he had to wait for OTHERS to develop a better power/weight engine.
Meanwhile Focke and Flettner were building and flying their helicopters.
____________________________
This thread is discussing the regurgitation of the previous XH-59A ABC. IMHO, any serious desire to improve the ABC concept will require research and development that is rotorcraft specific, such as;
Active blade twist.
Reverse velocity blades.
Higher cyclic rate flight controls
The essence of rotorcraft is the 'Rotor'
________________________
China has ten times more engineering students than the US. If the 'West' wants to decrease the rising unemployment it might consider spending its tax dollars on sending hundreds of thousands back to school.
Or, do we just wait until Rotorland moves to the far east?
Dave
Last edited by Dave_Jackson; 27th Jan 2009 at 22:04. Reason: Spelling
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Dave, my "threadjacking" light just came on. Agreed that the technologies you mention are important lines of development though. New thread?
CEFOSKEY, is Catia V5 also used for all of the powertrain design (ie rotating components)?
CEFOSKEY, is Catia V5 also used for all of the powertrain design (ie rotating components)?
Last edited by Graviman; 27th Jan 2009 at 11:33.
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Mart,
.
The three unfulfilled requirements mentioned in post #400 are directly related to the 'Sikorsky X2 coaxial heli development' and its ability to achieve high speed flight.
Interestingly, all three of these unfulfilled requirements are also directly related to; a rotating airfoil, where the axis of rotation is normal to the free stream velocity.
Is Darwin trying to tell us something?
Dave
Dave, my "threadjacking" light just came on.
The three unfulfilled requirements mentioned in post #400 are directly related to the 'Sikorsky X2 coaxial heli development' and its ability to achieve high speed flight.
Interestingly, all three of these unfulfilled requirements are also directly related to; a rotating airfoil, where the axis of rotation is normal to the free stream velocity.
Is Darwin trying to tell us something?
Dave
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Originally Posted by Dave Jackson
This thread is discussing the regurgitation of the previous XH-59A ABC. IMHO, any serious desire to improve the ABC concept will require research and development that is rotorcraft specific, such as;
Active blade twist.
Reverse velocity blades.
Higher cyclic rate flight controls
Active blade twist.
Reverse velocity blades.
Higher cyclic rate flight controls
The X2 design team has neatly considered available "off the shelf" technologies and adapted them to a practical flying machine.