Customs wants to 'shoot from choppers'
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Customs wants to 'shoot from choppers'
Recently on the Courier Mail:
Stupid of me to think they'd actually want to use this to stop illegal activites!
Stupid of me to think they'd actually want to use this to stop illegal activites!
CUSTOMS officials want to be able to fire weapons from helicopters to better protect Australia's borders and fishing grounds.
The capacity to shoot from the air will be part of the Rapid Response Helicopter Service the Australian Customs Service plans to launch in January, The Australian newspaper reports today.
Tender documents say the helicopter will "enhance Australia's fisheries and maritime surveillance, compliance and enforcement arrangements in Northern Australia".
But officials have ruled out following the example of US customs, which uses sharpshooters in helicopters to disable the engines of illegal vessels.
Customs officers would only be able to fire at feral animals that come onto mainland Australia from illegal fishing vessels, a Customs spokesman said.
"If a foreign fishing vessel brought with it a feral animal that was considered to be a quarantine risk ... then we would need to have the capability to destroy that animal," the spokesman told the newspaper.
Customs has called for companies to tender for the Rapid Response Helicopter Service, which would be on standby at Gove in East Arnhem Land in the Northern Territory.
The capacity to shoot from the air will be part of the Rapid Response Helicopter Service the Australian Customs Service plans to launch in January, The Australian newspaper reports today.
Tender documents say the helicopter will "enhance Australia's fisheries and maritime surveillance, compliance and enforcement arrangements in Northern Australia".
But officials have ruled out following the example of US customs, which uses sharpshooters in helicopters to disable the engines of illegal vessels.
Customs officers would only be able to fire at feral animals that come onto mainland Australia from illegal fishing vessels, a Customs spokesman said.
"If a foreign fishing vessel brought with it a feral animal that was considered to be a quarantine risk ... then we would need to have the capability to destroy that animal," the spokesman told the newspaper.
Customs has called for companies to tender for the Rapid Response Helicopter Service, which would be on standby at Gove in East Arnhem Land in the Northern Territory.
Now let me get this straight.....forget Terrorists, Pirates, and drug smugglers....but shooting the Ship's Cat is fair dinkum?
You Aussies are some rough company brother!
You Aussies are some rough company brother!
Last edited by SASless; 13th Sep 2006 at 01:24.
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One would think if Customs helicopters were armed it would help detour potential smugglers, illegal fishing etc. .
Not saying it would stop it!
but wouldn't it help to have that extra card there incase needed...wether it be for animals, pirates, smugglers. . . bit of extra force.
Not saying it would stop it!
but wouldn't it help to have that extra card there incase needed...wether it be for animals, pirates, smugglers. . . bit of extra force.
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Customs weapons ops from helos
Sounds like its a job for the our Huey gunships!! bring back the miniguns and rockets!! "clear in live" on the feral animal at 1000 yards!!
What could possibly go wrong?
HP
One would think if Customs helicopters were armed it would help detour potential smugglers, illegal fishing etc. .
Not saying it would stop it!
but wouldn't it help to have that extra card there incase needed...wether it be for animals, pirates, smugglers. . . bit of extra force.
Not saying it would stop it!
but wouldn't it help to have that extra card there incase needed...wether it be for animals, pirates, smugglers. . . bit of extra force.
Have you ever heard of ROE (rules of engagement)...truth of the matter is that if they had guns aboard they'd probably never use the bloody things ("Sir , I can't believe it, we've waved our guns at the people smugglers and they aren't turning back...what should we do?" "Take them out Smedley...no prisoners!")
Sheeesh!
Pollys just love this type of shiite
HP
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I happen to believe that it would be an excellent idea to follow the us customs model as far as employing a sharpshooter armed with a .50 cal sniper rifle to take out "illegal" cats. (bloody nuisance..they are!)
As a "liberationist" who in a previous life not that long ago, regularly hunted ferals with .22 subsonics, I am now all for the option of the one-shot kill.
I am guessing the only problem that could arise is having to prove that you had just shot at a cat!
As a "liberationist" who in a previous life not that long ago, regularly hunted ferals with .22 subsonics, I am now all for the option of the one-shot kill.
I am guessing the only problem that could arise is having to prove that you had just shot at a cat!
Last edited by bloodycrow; 13th Sep 2006 at 11:56.
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Jet,
Have you ever heard of ROE (rules of engagement)...truth of the matter is that if they had guns aboard they'd probably never use the bloody things ("Sir , I can't believe it, we've waved our guns at the people smugglers and they aren't turning back...what should we do?" "Take them out Smedley...no prisoners!")
Sheeesh!
Pollys just love this type of shiite
HP
Have you ever heard of ROE (rules of engagement)...truth of the matter is that if they had guns aboard they'd probably never use the bloody things ("Sir , I can't believe it, we've waved our guns at the people smugglers and they aren't turning back...what should we do?" "Take them out Smedley...no prisoners!")
Sheeesh!
Pollys just love this type of shiite
HP
I think firing a few "shots across the bow" would be more efficient than a 412 "In pursuit" of a smuggler/fishing/immigrant vesel. . 3 warnings. STOP. STOP. STOP. then 3 warning shots. Then shot to imobilise. Then Call in the Customs or RAN frigates, now they are no longer in pursuit of a moving vesel. Seems logical.
JF
Gatvol
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Warning Shots cause problems. If your going to shoot at something, you should have the mindset that you are going to kill it AND be able to convince a reasonable person (not a Government Official) that there was an extreme threat.
One example in the Caribbean when one of the Border patrol boats fired some warning shots at a smuggling boat and took off the head of the driver with a 50 cal. It got my vote, but it caused big problems.
One example in the Caribbean when one of the Border patrol boats fired some warning shots at a smuggling boat and took off the head of the driver with a 50 cal. It got my vote, but it caused big problems.
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I think we get into a serious health and safety issue here.
If people are going to start shooting from helicopters it can only be a matter of time before the crafty little feline buggers get hold of their own weapons and start shooting back.
I have to think that in this situation, the odds are stacked firmly in favour of the cats. Small, agile, fast and able to take advantage of natural cover they would present a considerable challenge as a target. However a large low flying helicopter would be easy prey for the nasty little yellow eyed monsters to hit.
They are natural hunters and would have no second thoughts about bringing down a helicopter. It would be another 'Black Hawk Down' scenario. There would be blood, tears and recriminations. It would not be good.
IMHO you should leave the actual hunting to the ground troops and leave the helos to do what they are best at, insertions and cas-evacs.
If people are going to start shooting from helicopters it can only be a matter of time before the crafty little feline buggers get hold of their own weapons and start shooting back.
I have to think that in this situation, the odds are stacked firmly in favour of the cats. Small, agile, fast and able to take advantage of natural cover they would present a considerable challenge as a target. However a large low flying helicopter would be easy prey for the nasty little yellow eyed monsters to hit.
They are natural hunters and would have no second thoughts about bringing down a helicopter. It would be another 'Black Hawk Down' scenario. There would be blood, tears and recriminations. It would not be good.
IMHO you should leave the actual hunting to the ground troops and leave the helos to do what they are best at, insertions and cas-evacs.
Tis true. . good point. Although whether they use them or not, i feel it would be benificial to have that option. Yes i am familiar with ROE, hence the reason to have an Op's & Procedures manual. . stating ROE.
I think firing a few "shots across the bow" would be more efficient than a 412 "In pursuit" of a smuggler/fishing/immigrant vesel. . 3 warnings. STOP. STOP. STOP. then 3 warning shots. Then shot to imobilise. Then Call in the Customs or RAN frigates, now they are no longer in pursuit of a moving vesel. Seems logical.
JF
I think firing a few "shots across the bow" would be more efficient than a 412 "In pursuit" of a smuggler/fishing/immigrant vesel. . 3 warnings. STOP. STOP. STOP. then 3 warning shots. Then shot to imobilise. Then Call in the Customs or RAN frigates, now they are no longer in pursuit of a moving vesel. Seems logical.
JF
The discussion of cats fighting back...priceless. I imagine a cat with a sniper rifle...several helicopters carved into the stock...moving stealthly through the bush. You're right,Lord Mount , they're merciless killing machines.
HP
Last edited by helopat; 14th Sep 2006 at 03:05.
Gatvol
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"helos to do what they are best at, insertions and cas-evacs."
Lord Mount
I would suggest you talk to some of those former NVA just to the North of OZ land. They can tell you that when the Pilots showed how skinny the AH-1 really was, they learned just how bad Twin Minis and Flechette Rockets could be.
Personally I would love to see a country today that had enough balls to tell Smugglers to "Heave Too" and when they didnt just blow their butts out of the water.
Lord Mount
I would suggest you talk to some of those former NVA just to the North of OZ land. They can tell you that when the Pilots showed how skinny the AH-1 really was, they learned just how bad Twin Minis and Flechette Rockets could be.
Personally I would love to see a country today that had enough balls to tell Smugglers to "Heave Too" and when they didnt just blow their butts out of the water.
Last edited by B Sousa; 13th Sep 2006 at 22:22.
Snipers might drive tacks....but nail driving is a delight to a Cobra pilot....granted 17 pounders can be a chuckle as well.
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See, the problem becomes "can you immobilise a ship EFFECTIVELY with a .50 cal?"...I'm not so sure. I've been there when the navy has fired warning shots...these people are desparate and after crossing from someplace like Africa to Australia, they're not interested in stopping for anything or anybody. In addition, ROE is usually to try to get them to turn back...can't do that if the engine (or the captains head) is blown off...just full of 'bad press' potential.
The discussion of cats fighting back...priceless. I imagine a cat with a sniper rifle...several helicopters carved into the stock...moving stealthly through the bush. You're right,Lord Mount , they're merciless killing machines.
HP
The discussion of cats fighting back...priceless. I imagine a cat with a sniper rifle...several helicopters carved into the stock...moving stealthly through the bush. You're right,Lord Mount , they're merciless killing machines.
HP
Immigrants: You want them to use there engines!
Illegal Fishing: You want to arrest them, easier when they are not moving.
Smugglers: Once agian, arrested, easier when not moving.
It's obvious there are certain situations where a .50 would be useful and others where it isn't. . It's been done elsewhere and it's not a hard to draw up a CLEAR system about when it is and isn't appropriate. You don't always have to shoot to blow a head off, you don't always shoot to kill.
Clearly if they shot a warnig shot at the vesel and blew the guys head off....get someone who can shoot!
Whack them in the noggin....what more warning can they want? They cease the offensive behaviour immediately. Sorted!