IMC Rating
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 3,931
Likes: 142
From: Warrington, UK
IMC Rating
Why do I, as an ATPL(H), have to take a full blown IR course to get an instument rating? Why can't an ATPL(H) fly on an IMC rating like a PPL?
After all, how many of us want, or need, to be able to fly airways? Most of the time all we need is the ability to get through some bad weather safely, instead of groping around at low level.
Of course, this question only applies to the UK.
After all, how many of us want, or need, to be able to fly airways? Most of the time all we need is the ability to get through some bad weather safely, instead of groping around at low level.
Of course, this question only applies to the UK.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
From: Nova
If you want your IF ability compared to that of a Private Pilot with 40 odd hours under his belt, fair enough an IMC rating would do it.
But if you want others to rely on your IF ability, why wouldn't you do an IR? There's nothing terribly difficult about it you know!
PS. It's a popularly held misconception that you need to be flying 'in cloud' to require IF skills!
In a helicopter, that frequently isn't true!
And once you are IMC, who knows where you may need to go to get out of it!
Think more carefully about it mate.
PPS. I too was a Police pilot for over 7 years.
Cheers
But if you want others to rely on your IF ability, why wouldn't you do an IR? There's nothing terribly difficult about it you know!
PS. It's a popularly held misconception that you need to be flying 'in cloud' to require IF skills!
In a helicopter, that frequently isn't true!
And once you are IMC, who knows where you may need to go to get out of it!
Think more carefully about it mate.
PPS. I too was a Police pilot for over 7 years.
Cheers
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
Now that is odd....14 exams and all that and still no Instrument Rating on an ATPL? Sounds like the "Old" way of doing a VFR ATP in the old days back when Bell 47's and Hiller 12E's were in vogue for commerical work.
Gomer P...I have done the full ATPL and IF rating and yet am to understand some of the things that go on over there. I could never grasp the concept of flying IMC without having an Instrument Rating. Just as I fail to understand airports being closed after dark merely because the Control Tower is closed down.
We shall not digress to asking why every ATC unit along your flight planned path has to have the full details of your trip vice that information they need to clear you through their area. But what the heck...when in Rome I guess.
One other small difference is the lack of Flight Service Stations.
Ah...but surely the CAA now JAA knows best.
Gomer P...I have done the full ATPL and IF rating and yet am to understand some of the things that go on over there. I could never grasp the concept of flying IMC without having an Instrument Rating. Just as I fail to understand airports being closed after dark merely because the Control Tower is closed down.
We shall not digress to asking why every ATC unit along your flight planned path has to have the full details of your trip vice that information they need to clear you through their area. But what the heck...when in Rome I guess.
One other small difference is the lack of Flight Service Stations.
Ah...but surely the CAA now JAA knows best.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 3,931
Likes: 142
From: Warrington, UK
If you want your IF ability compared to that of a Private Pilot with 40 odd hours under his belt, fair enough an IMC rating would do it
If, like me, all you want is to be able to get through bad weather into clear air at times, then it seems a viable(and much cheaper) alternative.
Joined: Jul 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL(H)
Posts: 3,052
Likes: 56
From: UK
Mightygem,
Are you sure that you're not confusing your (A)s and (H)s?
There is obviously an PPL(A) IMC rating but, as far as I know, there is no such thing as a PPL(H) IMC rating.
And for the record, anyone who thinks that any IF training in a heli should allow you to fly 'VFR on top' in a single is just nuts. But that's a whole different topic of debate!
B73
Are you sure that you're not confusing your (A)s and (H)s?
There is obviously an PPL(A) IMC rating but, as far as I know, there is no such thing as a PPL(H) IMC rating.
And for the record, anyone who thinks that any IF training in a heli should allow you to fly 'VFR on top' in a single is just nuts. But that's a whole different topic of debate!
B73
Last edited by Bravo73; 31st August 2006 at 08:04.
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
From: UK
I asked this very question whilst attending a TSLG meeting some years ago and was advised that the background to the IMC rating for aeroplanes goes back to the issue of plank drivers getting airborne and then 'encountering unexpected' bad weather that forces them to have to fly IFR to get safely back onto some tarmac.
Better to equip them with the 'skills' needed to save the day rather than they crash and burn.
Helicopters of course can slow down, go down and if necessary land in fields so there was never an equivalent safety case for an IMC(H).
The fact that some IMC(A) holders treat it as a 'cheap and cheerful' IR and leap off in obvious 'dodgy' weather is another matter.
Better to equip them with the 'skills' needed to save the day rather than they crash and burn.
Helicopters of course can slow down, go down and if necessary land in fields so there was never an equivalent safety case for an IMC(H).
The fact that some IMC(A) holders treat it as a 'cheap and cheerful' IR and leap off in obvious 'dodgy' weather is another matter.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
From: Nova
Actually, a PPL needs a minimum of 25 hours AFTER being granted his PPL. A big plus factor is that an IMC rating is only a minimum of 15 hours flying training
Presumably the aircraft you fly, is worth a penny or two? So why would you worry about the expense of an IR. I imagine it is very small beer in the grand scheme of things, and as an 'employee',(I presume?) is unlikely to fall onto your shoulders?
Do you settle for second best in any other area of your flying?
Why IF, which can save your, and your passenger's lives? Lack of proficiency in this area has certainly cost a few!
tbc. Please see my earlier quote about 'popularly held misconception'. Not always easy to "land in a field" when it's dark.
What price your life?
Hovering AND talking
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,711
Likes: 1
From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Presumably the aircraft you fly, is worth a penny or two? So why would you worry about the expense of an IR.
....and while we're on the subject .... A PPL(A) can do his Night Qualification 25 hours after qualifying as a PPL(A) but for a PPL(H) it is 100 hours! And it's the same qualification whereas an IR and IMC rating are different!
Cheers
Whirls
Guest
Posts: n/a
I remember getting my IMC on a PPL(A) a long time ago - those trips to LFAT were always much more fun if you came out on top !! Sometimes you didn't find it and you caked it, so went back to the blue again !
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing !
IMC = Russian Roulette - trust me !
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing !
IMC = Russian Roulette - trust me !
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,605
Likes: 6
From: UK
Isn't that the crux of the problem, Money. I believe most of the Police helicopters are single pilot IFR machines, but the a number of the pilots flying them are not IR rated because the industry are not willing to pay the expense. I know the old argument about how you can not do police work in cloud, but how come we have got the kit then? My instructor always tells me since you have all the toys in your A/C I want to see you using them. It will take another accident before people wise up. Accidents cost far more money compared to a little training.
I also know there is a lot of negative stigma associated with instrument flying, which in parts is unjust. Maybe I was lucky with my instructors but I actually like flying on instruments when the going gets tough.
But this is only my opinion and what do I know, I only got a little experience in this game.
The 55hour instrument training is a bit much, anyone know why so many hours? 15 should be enough I would have thought.
I also know there is a lot of negative stigma associated with instrument flying, which in parts is unjust. Maybe I was lucky with my instructors but I actually like flying on instruments when the going gets tough.
But this is only my opinion and what do I know, I only got a little experience in this game.
The 55hour instrument training is a bit much, anyone know why so many hours? 15 should be enough I would have thought.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
From: The 51st State
At the risk of being a bit controversial (Ok im bored)
Is it not the case that, as there is no single engine IFR in UK, (probably a bad thing I know but hey thats what we've got)
There is, therefore no IMC(H). No one flying a twin heli would waste their time (or THEIR money) with half a rating as it wouldn't be acceptable to an employer. Even commercially used R44s and Jet rangers etc have to stay VMC (officially) so what good would it be.
In warmer climes of course (or dare i say more aviation friendly countries) where single engine IFR is OK, it might be a good idea except for the fact that IR's dont cost the earth there and you can get full inst. tng for sensible money. Still if you cant take a joke... you shouldnt have joined
There is, therefore no IMC(H). No one flying a twin heli would waste their time (or THEIR money) with half a rating as it wouldn't be acceptable to an employer. Even commercially used R44s and Jet rangers etc have to stay VMC (officially) so what good would it be. In warmer climes of course (or dare i say more aviation friendly countries) where single engine IFR is OK, it might be a good idea except for the fact that IR's dont cost the earth there and you can get full inst. tng for sensible money. Still if you cant take a joke... you shouldnt have joined
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
From: Nova
Because in the UK, the aircraft is owned by an operator and it's not unheard of for the pilot to pay for his own IR which will use up the thick end of £30,000! That's why one would worry!
I've got one.
I paid for it!
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
From: UK
Having an IFR machine and then having an IR pilot to fly it is not the complete picture I would suggest, especially for those Emergency Services operations.
How many operations carry sufficient fuel to comply with IFR, have the appropriate facilities (airfields and procedures) for departure and particualry arrival etc.?
Then of course there is the 'keeping it current' costs which could be quite high of course given transit times to and from these 'facilities.
Not all the Emergency Services helicopters are IFR capable in fact a quick 'head count' from memory suggests that some 40% of current police helicopters are not approved for Single Pilot IFR. For the current HEMS fleet I believe that some 57% are not approved for Single Pilot IFR.
I also believe that 2012 is the planned 'out' date for the last Police 'VFR' helicopter.
How many operations carry sufficient fuel to comply with IFR, have the appropriate facilities (airfields and procedures) for departure and particualry arrival etc.?
Then of course there is the 'keeping it current' costs which could be quite high of course given transit times to and from these 'facilities.
Not all the Emergency Services helicopters are IFR capable in fact a quick 'head count' from memory suggests that some 40% of current police helicopters are not approved for Single Pilot IFR. For the current HEMS fleet I believe that some 57% are not approved for Single Pilot IFR.
I also believe that 2012 is the planned 'out' date for the last Police 'VFR' helicopter.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
From: Nova
tbc
I don't think anybody is necessarily suggesting 'planned' IFR transits. Though since the majority of these machines are also used in the offshore environment, clearly fuel capability can't be an issue!
What (IMHO) is worrying is the attitude of:
"If, like me, all you want is to be able to get through bad weather into clear air at times, then it seems a viable (and much cheaper) alternative."
This attitude can easily lead to an insidious reduction in safety standards!
Once you enter cloud, you need to know exactly what you are doing!
Again IMHO, it is not acceptable to be bumbling in and (hopefully!) out of cloud, when you have other people's souls aboard!
Quoting cost as an issue, is also difficult for me to reconcile.
Whirls: Please check you pms
I don't think anybody is necessarily suggesting 'planned' IFR transits. Though since the majority of these machines are also used in the offshore environment, clearly fuel capability can't be an issue!
What (IMHO) is worrying is the attitude of:
"If, like me, all you want is to be able to get through bad weather into clear air at times, then it seems a viable (and much cheaper) alternative."
This attitude can easily lead to an insidious reduction in safety standards!
Once you enter cloud, you need to know exactly what you are doing!
Again IMHO, it is not acceptable to be bumbling in and (hopefully!) out of cloud, when you have other people's souls aboard!
Quoting cost as an issue, is also difficult for me to reconcile.
Whirls: Please check you pms
Last edited by Tandemrotor; 31st August 2006 at 16:43.
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
From: Over here
I admit to being pig-ignorant of UK regulations, but am I reading this thread correctly in understanding that there are two different ratings being discussed, one a full instrument rating and the other something less than that? Perhaps I'm just confused. In the US, there is one instrument rating. It's good for the category(ies) of aircraft you fly, and may be used for either PPL or CPL. An ATPL holder doesn't have a separate instrument rating, because that's assumed and required for the ATP.
I don't have a copy of the UK regs, nor the JARs, nor the interest in reading them, because I don't suffer from insomnia. Could someone briefly explain this issue to a colonial?
I don't have a copy of the UK regs, nor the JARs, nor the interest in reading them, because I don't suffer from insomnia. Could someone briefly explain this issue to a colonial?
Hovering AND talking
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,711
Likes: 1
From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
No doubt someone will whoop my ass for this but...as I see it... the IR(H) (UK JAA) covers both flying in accordance with certain airspace regs but could be VMC and flying IMC i.e one can fly IFR in VMC (Class A?)
Maybe the suggestion could be that these two elements are separated?
Cheers
Whirls
Maybe the suggestion could be that these two elements are separated?
Cheers
Whirls
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
No doubt someone will whoop my ass for this but...
You raise a good point however.....if one only has an IMC rating but is VMC, can one file IFR within Controlled Airspace or would a full IF rating be required?
In the USA, one must have a current Instrument rating to file IFR no matter the weather. One may call upon Approach or Center and do "practice" instrument approaches without having an instrument rating but the "caveat....Remain clear of cloud or maintain VMC" will be part of the ATC clearance.