Flying over London: Heli-lanes etc
Detgnome - that was the one - and I signed for it so it was technically mine until we did the AF in the garden and handed over captaincy for the return journey.
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I'm in the odd position of enjoying flying around london but also finding helicopter noise a bit tedious at certain times.
My ear's good enough now to pick out the royal london hems even when i don't see it and that seems (and this is partly about perception) fairly quiet. The noisy ones (from an east london point of view) are the police doing the circling routine and it's the circling (perhaps because of low level?) that you get a bit bored of.
Maybe Ken can get all the bad people to behave (they live north of me) then it'll be quieter
My ear's good enough now to pick out the royal london hems even when i don't see it and that seems (and this is partly about perception) fairly quiet. The noisy ones (from an east london point of view) are the police doing the circling routine and it's the circling (perhaps because of low level?) that you get a bit bored of.
Maybe Ken can get all the bad people to behave (they live north of me) then it'll be quieter
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FWF,
From the viewpoint of the commercial operator, I think you have hit upon one of the possible ways in which this "consultation" could go, if we aren't aware of the issue.
In general, Joe Public who complains about noise does not differentiate between the uses of helicopters - they don't really care. The police heles are going to operate within the CAA POAM rules but essentially as they see fit. They will operate at night, when perceptions of noise are greatest, which will annoy some people. If it is night time and a noisy hele, it pretty much has to be the police.
It would be quite easy for hele-haters to have a go at the commercial operations (because they can), when the source of their antagonism will be immune from any additional restrictions that Red Ken may be able to get imposed.
This isn't a pop at police ops - it is just suggesting that those representing heles need to force the nature of different ops to be appreciated.
From the viewpoint of the commercial operator, I think you have hit upon one of the possible ways in which this "consultation" could go, if we aren't aware of the issue.
In general, Joe Public who complains about noise does not differentiate between the uses of helicopters - they don't really care. The police heles are going to operate within the CAA POAM rules but essentially as they see fit. They will operate at night, when perceptions of noise are greatest, which will annoy some people. If it is night time and a noisy hele, it pretty much has to be the police.
It would be quite easy for hele-haters to have a go at the commercial operations (because they can), when the source of their antagonism will be immune from any additional restrictions that Red Ken may be able to get imposed.
This isn't a pop at police ops - it is just suggesting that those representing heles need to force the nature of different ops to be appreciated.
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I heard/saw the hems go pretty much overhead (2/3nm) from royal london this morning and the noise didn't seem too bad at all (to a pedestrian on their way to work) - there's a bit of a screetch as its flying away from you. Interesting reference below to twin squirrel vs 902 noise:
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/depa...ss/helicopter/
Going back in time, i was walking around whitechapel in '99 when the previous incarnation of hems landed (dauphin?) and the noise from that on approach was literally scary. There's something about London streets (e.g. flat fronted terraces on both sides) that can conspire to create a real cacophony.
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/depa...ss/helicopter/
Going back in time, i was walking around whitechapel in '99 when the previous incarnation of hems landed (dauphin?) and the noise from that on approach was literally scary. There's something about London streets (e.g. flat fronted terraces on both sides) that can conspire to create a real cacophony.
Maybe a Pre-emptive strike needs to be done. Get a sound guy out with his recording equipment and record and score by decible level, a couple of days of noise in the part of town in question.
After a few hours of listening to buses, sirens, lorries, motorbikes, air hammers, trains, airliners, and ex-wives.....the odd helicopter will seem rather quiet actually.
After a few hours of listening to buses, sirens, lorries, motorbikes, air hammers, trains, airliners, and ex-wives.....the odd helicopter will seem rather quiet actually.
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East London Tra
EAST LONDON TRA
The TRA which went up in the early hours of Friday morning and blocks much of east London has been extended and will remain in position until next Monday June 12 0900Z.
However, the confusion caused by the TRA being over H4 has been resolved. Until now, anyone trying to join H4 at Isle of Dogs from the south was being turned away by Thames Radar. This has been rectified and you can now get into H4 from IoD/Blackheath.
The TRA is 5nm radius and goes to 6000ft - it successfully blocks the Lea Valley route, goes to within a mile of Stapleford's ATZ and keeps traffic as far east as the QE2 bridge.
However, planes operating in and out of LCA are exempt.......so it's not about public safety then.
The TRA which went up in the early hours of Friday morning and blocks much of east London has been extended and will remain in position until next Monday June 12 0900Z.
However, the confusion caused by the TRA being over H4 has been resolved. Until now, anyone trying to join H4 at Isle of Dogs from the south was being turned away by Thames Radar. This has been rectified and you can now get into H4 from IoD/Blackheath.
The TRA is 5nm radius and goes to 6000ft - it successfully blocks the Lea Valley route, goes to within a mile of Stapleford's ATZ and keeps traffic as far east as the QE2 bridge.
However, planes operating in and out of LCA are exempt.......so it's not about public safety then.
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Now now mate - don't make it sound like us fluffy bunnies who do Thames Radio are in charge!!!!!
Believe me, it would be easier if you could all come in - I spend more time in explaining to aircraft that they are in a TRA, that they can't come in BECAUSE of the TRA than anything else.
Rumour has it that a Mr J Prescott signed off the NOTAM as a diversionary tactic........
Believe me, it would be easier if you could all come in - I spend more time in explaining to aircraft that they are in a TRA, that they can't come in BECAUSE of the TRA than anything else.
Rumour has it that a Mr J Prescott signed off the NOTAM as a diversionary tactic........
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Originally Posted by AlanM
I spend more time in explaining to aircraft that they are in a TRA, that they can't come in BECAUSE of the TRA than anything else.
Not to mention the weekend was busy with epsom, ascott and biggin hill and you did a grand job at routing everyone around.
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DThanks triple s
I copped the whole lot - and I will be in for Ascot as well. Yipppee.
And to prove that some people clearly NEVER read NOTAMs or flight plan. I had at least half a dozen ask for:
1. "Ascot to BUR" (not available as the LCTR is PPR as per the AIC - with extra Heli routes)
2. To route "via Epsom racecourse" (errrr - what about the ATZ and shed loads of helicopters)
3. "Can you arrange a tranist via the Biggin overhead please?" - yes why not..... after all why not think of calling Biggin themselves??
4. "Transit QE2 - Dome and North" .... aaaagggggghhhhhhh!
5. "I am at the QE2 bridge routeing from LFAT to Stapleford requesting a Radar service" - WTF?
Oh well - added a few callsigns to the list of numpties who should never be allowed any where near CAS.
I copped the whole lot - and I will be in for Ascot as well. Yipppee.
And to prove that some people clearly NEVER read NOTAMs or flight plan. I had at least half a dozen ask for:
1. "Ascot to BUR" (not available as the LCTR is PPR as per the AIC - with extra Heli routes)
2. To route "via Epsom racecourse" (errrr - what about the ATZ and shed loads of helicopters)
3. "Can you arrange a tranist via the Biggin overhead please?" - yes why not..... after all why not think of calling Biggin themselves??
4. "Transit QE2 - Dome and North" .... aaaagggggghhhhhhh!
5. "I am at the QE2 bridge routeing from LFAT to Stapleford requesting a Radar service" - WTF?
Oh well - added a few callsigns to the list of numpties who should never be allowed any where near CAS.
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Think of us poor souls that did read the NOTAM that said H4 exempt, only to find that the exemption was only for those travelling eastbound (obviously I live in the more dodgy eastern end of the UK...), still, good to chase a few seals around instead!
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I sympathise with AlanM. As a military controller working not too far down the A40, I too have had to put up with several muppets who didn't bother to read notams over the weekend. There ought to be penalties imposed on these people!
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Speaking as a muppet who DID read the NOTAMs and was operating at Epsom, I have to say that I find the whole Epsom ATZ thing to be vastly over-rated.
I counted 10 movements Friday. On Saturday there were 38 helis carrying pax and 3 206s doing pleasure flights between races. There were no multiple shuttle flights as far as I could see.
This needs an ATZ ? This needs new heli routes ? This needs widespread disruption to London airspace ? Epsom is in uncontrolled airspace - a simple unicom and ppr system would suffice.
However, the "Muppet of the Year" award (so far) goes to the R44 owner who landed solo on Saturday at Epsom. Keeping his engine and rotors running, he stepped out of his machine and commenced changing into his morning suit. In the struggle to stop putting both his legs down one side of his trousers (and nearly falling over), he failed to notice man in hi-viz approaching........and the logo on the hi-viz was that familiar CAA sign.
Yep - the inspectors were in. Couldn't hear what was said because the engine was revving its balls off. He had selected "clutch out" whilst still standing outside the helicopter.
I counted 10 movements Friday. On Saturday there were 38 helis carrying pax and 3 206s doing pleasure flights between races. There were no multiple shuttle flights as far as I could see.
This needs an ATZ ? This needs new heli routes ? This needs widespread disruption to London airspace ? Epsom is in uncontrolled airspace - a simple unicom and ppr system would suffice.
However, the "Muppet of the Year" award (so far) goes to the R44 owner who landed solo on Saturday at Epsom. Keeping his engine and rotors running, he stepped out of his machine and commenced changing into his morning suit. In the struggle to stop putting both his legs down one side of his trousers (and nearly falling over), he failed to notice man in hi-viz approaching........and the logo on the hi-viz was that familiar CAA sign.
Yep - the inspectors were in. Couldn't hear what was said because the engine was revving its balls off. He had selected "clutch out" whilst still standing outside the helicopter.
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HH - couldn't agree more.
Maybe an ATZ just to control the air over a congested area, but PPR/Extra helilanes etc is a waste of time of Epsom.
The CAA are almost always at these events (or at places like Battersea 2 years back during Silverstone)
The London zone will get more traffic from Silverstone than it did for Espom.... and no PPR /extra Heli routes.
Roll on Ascot eh?
Maybe an ATZ just to control the air over a congested area, but PPR/Extra helilanes etc is a waste of time of Epsom.
The CAA are almost always at these events (or at places like Battersea 2 years back during Silverstone)
The London zone will get more traffic from Silverstone than it did for Espom.... and no PPR /extra Heli routes.
Roll on Ascot eh?
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10 mile diameter exclusion for aircraft for another week but residents are not evacuated,so it is not a public safety issue, why resrict all aircraft if it just the media they dont want snooping?
Is this the greatest restriction on flying activities in UK peacetime?
Creaser
Is this the greatest restriction on flying activities in UK peacetime?
Creaser
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Yet again it seems to be a huge over-reaction by the authorities. Let's face it the current Chief Constable of the Met seems (according to the media) to be utterly hopeless, and likes a good crisis for publicities sake.
AlanM; The level of muppetry on special events days never ceases to amaze me, but you should go to the events and see what goes on there. How the controllers keep their humour and standards in the face of stupidity and sometimes downright dangerous behaviour baffles me. Most of us fly to these events every year, we know each other and the procedures and the controllers all know us. Unfortunately we then have the person with no real idea turning up. He/she probably hasn't read or heard the brief and thinks it will all be simple. They then turn up, go the wrong way, or get lost (actually on the FATO at cheltenham last year!!) use the wrong frequencies or callsigns, or all 4.The last 2 Cheltenhams have found me in the hold with several others while the controllers tried to locate and then bring in 2 R44s and an Enstrom. At one event I was shown a flight strip with all the aircraft details on it and the comment W
er!!
The Grand Prix this week, hopefully safe and quiet for all. Then into the delights of Ascot (p ed passengers, long days and sunburn) To all the LHR special controllers I now beg for mercy. I'll be the muppet lost on H 11 and 12 during Ascot week.
AlanM; The level of muppetry on special events days never ceases to amaze me, but you should go to the events and see what goes on there. How the controllers keep their humour and standards in the face of stupidity and sometimes downright dangerous behaviour baffles me. Most of us fly to these events every year, we know each other and the procedures and the controllers all know us. Unfortunately we then have the person with no real idea turning up. He/she probably hasn't read or heard the brief and thinks it will all be simple. They then turn up, go the wrong way, or get lost (actually on the FATO at cheltenham last year!!) use the wrong frequencies or callsigns, or all 4.The last 2 Cheltenhams have found me in the hold with several others while the controllers tried to locate and then bring in 2 R44s and an Enstrom. At one event I was shown a flight strip with all the aircraft details on it and the comment W
er!!The Grand Prix this week, hopefully safe and quiet for all. Then into the delights of Ascot (p
ed passengers, long days and sunburn) To all the LHR special controllers I now beg for mercy. I'll be the muppet lost on H 11 and 12 during Ascot week.
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surely this is just to keep out the media aircraft 
...... (nevermind the media given almost doorstep access on the ground!)..... I have never understood why access cant be granted for pre-arranged times and periods if public saftey is not an issue...... I'll just keep wondering...
...... (nevermind the media given almost doorstep access on the ground!)..... I have never understood why access cant be granted for pre-arranged times and periods if public saftey is not an issue...... I'll just keep wondering...
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VH - awwww.... don't you get H50 etc on yr GPS?!!?!?
I will be at the Farnborough helipad - but thankfully the need for a face to face pre-brief cuts down on muppetry!
(Oh - and I am also on SVFR for Ascot.... ggggreat!)
I will be at the Farnborough helipad - but thankfully the need for a face to face pre-brief cuts down on muppetry!
(Oh - and I am also on SVFR for Ascot.... ggggreat!)
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AlanM
GPS? Its' got three of them. I just haven't worked out how to work them yet
See you at the Farnborough brief.
GPS? Its' got three of them. I just haven't worked out how to work them yet
See you at the Farnborough brief.