Whats Happening in the Torres Straits
Originally Posted by Ned-Air2Air
...why dont you put your two cents worth in as to what pilots SHOULD be paid, and be realistic.
Flying helicopters is more fun
and less dangerous 
and holds far fewer responsibilities 
than pulling electrical cables, so let's offer a bit of a discount on the daily rate...let's just make it $600 per day 
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Wow... COB... who got denied at the interview for Bristow? Sadly your information as to the pedigree of most Bristow pilots is a little amiss.
There are certainly a number of lucky FO's that got a start from near scratch. However, there are a large number of pilots from the whole spectrum of the rotary world and the collected experience of 'wires' and 'mountains' would naturally far exceed your own.
Offshore drivers make the decision to go that way for more than just the money mate and your suggestion that its a sell out might be taken as somewhat offensive. I sense that that was your intention, which returns me to my first impression that you are in fact a grizzly reject from the offshore scene.
All the best
There are certainly a number of lucky FO's that got a start from near scratch. However, there are a large number of pilots from the whole spectrum of the rotary world and the collected experience of 'wires' and 'mountains' would naturally far exceed your own.
Offshore drivers make the decision to go that way for more than just the money mate and your suggestion that its a sell out might be taken as somewhat offensive. I sense that that was your intention, which returns me to my first impression that you are in fact a grizzly reject from the offshore scene.
All the best
Originally Posted by Ned-Air2Air
Anyway just thought this might add a different twist to this thread.
Ned
Ned
Might it be better to try to lump these rotary jobs into a couple of categories, ie. hours building, etc?
So, at the risk of getting my hind parts shot off
by some particularly angry participants in this forum
, my take on the business...I'm not even going to PRESUME to estimate what each of these groups should make...I'll leave that for some other brave soul. HIGH END EARNERS
Offshore Oil Support
Corporate & VIP
GUYS WHO SHOULD BE HIGH END EARNERS BUT AREN'T (YET)
EMS Pilot
Law Enforcement (some)
Specialist Longline Pilot
SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN SEMI-GINORMOUS BUCKS AND STARVATION WAGE
General Charter
Utility Pilot
Mustering Pilot - Old Hand (probably never going to be above a moderate wage, though, wouldn't you say?)
Flight Instructor - Experienced
Tour Pilot ie: Hawaii or Vegas (because the tour company STILL has to make the big bucks itself, so sorry pilot)
Fire Fighting
Ag Pilot
HOURS BUILDING
Mustering Pilot - Newbie
Flight Instructor - Newbie
Fire Fighting
Now that I've written this, I think I'm in for a serious ass whoopin from just about every group represented above, aren't I?
HP
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Ah...wrong. Done a ton of that gig. Offshore is where you go for a steady job either for the family or because you are called to service the oil and gas industry and be the poorest paid and non-unionised worker with the worst roster.
Military guys end up there because they are largely unemployable elsewhere and have not enough time for VFR or PNG nor the experience. Also they are unable to cope with a non-regulated environment where commonsence and initiative are vital. That's a largely inflamatory statement and not descriptive of all ex-mil guys but for the most its pretty accurate. Not your fault thou, you were ****** with as a youngster and they beat all individualism out of you. The pre-start, start, pre-takeoff, takeoff, cruise, decent, pre-landing, landing, taxi and shut-down checklists are the working environment perfect for the 2000hr mil pilot. But listen, there are a few good ones out there!
Bellfest:
All respect mate; no I think we are all underpaid and cudos to the offshore guys if they are pulling 130K. They deserve it. MYSELF: I just find it difficult to know that I will be flying the same track there and back for the rest of my career. Might as well give up, retrain as a financial consultant and live for Friday afternoon and dread Sunday evening.
I think a 3-5000hr VFR or IFR pilot should pull at least $100k aussie per year.
Military guys end up there because they are largely unemployable elsewhere and have not enough time for VFR or PNG nor the experience. Also they are unable to cope with a non-regulated environment where commonsence and initiative are vital. That's a largely inflamatory statement and not descriptive of all ex-mil guys but for the most its pretty accurate. Not your fault thou, you were ****** with as a youngster and they beat all individualism out of you. The pre-start, start, pre-takeoff, takeoff, cruise, decent, pre-landing, landing, taxi and shut-down checklists are the working environment perfect for the 2000hr mil pilot. But listen, there are a few good ones out there!
Bellfest:
All respect mate; no I think we are all underpaid and cudos to the offshore guys if they are pulling 130K. They deserve it. MYSELF: I just find it difficult to know that I will be flying the same track there and back for the rest of my career. Might as well give up, retrain as a financial consultant and live for Friday afternoon and dread Sunday evening.
I think a 3-5000hr VFR or IFR pilot should pull at least $100k aussie per year.
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The main topic seems to be what pilots are being paid rather than if they like their company & are satisfied with their lot. Just to give you some idea how badly our pay has slipped over the years, let me give you my example.
I left the Navy in 1967 with 1500 hours, although 1035 was on twins, instrument experienced & with mountain, desert, jungle & general vfr bush experience. My first job was to fly a Bell 47G3B1 on a gravity sampling contract near Halls Creek. We all flew about 150 hours per month, 6 weeks on 2 weeks off, although this was generally 12-16 weeks on & 2-3 off. For this I was paid $9000 per year & $6 per revenue hour plus $6 per day. Food was provided & we normally slept in a swag near to the 47.
My gross pay was about the same as a DC9 captain & more than a F27 captain & co-pilot combined. And that was for a sprog 1500 hour pilot on a little 47.Logically 40 years & 13000 hours later, if that rate of helicopter pay had kept pace with the plank pilots, I would expect to be close to a 747 captain in pay. But as we all know that has not happened & I suppose we only have ourselves to blame. When I bought my first house in Sydney in Nov 1967, I rememember my solicitor saying my income was in the top 5% in the country, more than his! These days pilots salaries, especially on oil rigs, are well down compared to many other trades.
I doubt if there will be much improvement for a while yet.
I left the Navy in 1967 with 1500 hours, although 1035 was on twins, instrument experienced & with mountain, desert, jungle & general vfr bush experience. My first job was to fly a Bell 47G3B1 on a gravity sampling contract near Halls Creek. We all flew about 150 hours per month, 6 weeks on 2 weeks off, although this was generally 12-16 weeks on & 2-3 off. For this I was paid $9000 per year & $6 per revenue hour plus $6 per day. Food was provided & we normally slept in a swag near to the 47.
My gross pay was about the same as a DC9 captain & more than a F27 captain & co-pilot combined. And that was for a sprog 1500 hour pilot on a little 47.Logically 40 years & 13000 hours later, if that rate of helicopter pay had kept pace with the plank pilots, I would expect to be close to a 747 captain in pay. But as we all know that has not happened & I suppose we only have ourselves to blame. When I bought my first house in Sydney in Nov 1967, I rememember my solicitor saying my income was in the top 5% in the country, more than his! These days pilots salaries, especially on oil rigs, are well down compared to many other trades.
I doubt if there will be much improvement for a while yet.
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Helopat
I think you've done a good guesstimate on the mustering scene.
although newbies tend to be experience building rather than hours sharks. No place for them nowadays, they can go to the tourist industry.
Old hands, well if they are real enterprising they should learn bovine preg testing so as they are usefully employed while they are waiting to muster the next mob.
At $2.00 a shot it's real riveting stuff shoving your hand up five or six hundred cows arses a day, still it's way better than having someone shove something else up yours , eh?
cheers tet
I think you've done a good guesstimate on the mustering scene.
although newbies tend to be experience building rather than hours sharks. No place for them nowadays, they can go to the tourist industry.
Old hands, well if they are real enterprising they should learn bovine preg testing so as they are usefully employed while they are waiting to muster the next mob.
At $2.00 a shot it's real riveting stuff shoving your hand up five or six hundred cows arses a day, still it's way better than having someone shove something else up yours , eh?
cheers tet
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COB!
I agree, however this would be slightly possible if companies wouldnt prostitute themselves/machines ie B206 in OZ for $500 P/hr,
an KIWI comapnies coming here for much the same on powerline ops
...maybe we pilots could earn some dollars.
As a benchmark or figured estimate i did a remote survey job recently for 10 days for $400 AUD PER DAY plus accomodation plus meals and airline travels, so in the end it didnt work out too bad at all. mind you the employer i fly for casually uses new eqipment so quality is not a problem!
........but it can get lonely in a sleeping bag after awhile!
...but ive seen many beautiful sunrises and i wouldnt trade it for the world
I think a 3-5000hr VFR or IFR pilot should pull at least $100k aussie per year.
an KIWI comapnies coming here for much the same on powerline ops ...maybe we pilots could earn some dollars. As a benchmark or figured estimate i did a remote survey job recently for 10 days for $400 AUD PER DAY plus accomodation plus meals and airline travels, so in the end it didnt work out too bad at all. mind you the employer i fly for casually uses new eqipment so quality is not a problem!
........but it can get lonely in a sleeping bag after awhile! ...but ive seen many beautiful sunrises and i wouldnt trade it for the world
Originally Posted by topendtorque
At $2.00 a shot it's real riveting stuff shoving your hand up five or six hundred cows arses a day, still it's way better than having someone shove something else up yours , eh?
cheers tet
cheers tet
ed in the salary arena. HP
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TET: farking hilarious. All that experience must come in handy later. Is that an aviation managment course you were on?
BT: nice to see you getting some sunrise. I agree to a point that the foreign companies coming in and undercutting is poor form. I cannot see an end to it anytime soon. The only way to make change is to unionise.
Those ******* roustabouts chasing a crane on a platform are not earning 70K a year because of their uni education. Its all about the unions. When I was an apprentice I was forced to join the union. The dues were minimal but the backup was phenomenal. Every new pilot out of school should be 'pressed' into the union and that would stop the arse ******* that happens now. All workplaces should be unionised and when the guys up at HA are being impregnated by TET
we should all drop collective.
Just imagine for a minute what action that would effect. No sar, no oil workers moving, no TV, no fire fighting, no powerline repairs, no telstra repairs, no beef burgers, no fat arses over uluru. Get in your ******* toyota and drive. Sorry, it just has to happen. I HAS TO - its impossible to get pilots to do this without external organisation. We need better wages, higher education standards for industry entry, better protection for families, better protection for self, better longevity, better tours, better care for families of those that die.
And there is the fact team. Look around. Those guys you are with now, trained with, worked on fires with, heard on the frequency. One or more of them is going to be killed or permanently maimed sometime soon. It might even be you. What are you going to do when you break your back cause the piece of **** lowsided into trees? What is your backup plan? Seen the cost of health and life insurance lately? Who apart from the Bristow, Esso, CHC have any level of personal care? And who are the ones at the greatest risk?
Its a dangerous job and the danger is accentuated by budget operators in every facet of the industry who bring the standards down, slash costs, maintain to the minimum and employ the cheapest. We cannot be trusted to regulate on our own.
BT: nice to see you getting some sunrise. I agree to a point that the foreign companies coming in and undercutting is poor form. I cannot see an end to it anytime soon. The only way to make change is to unionise.
Those ******* roustabouts chasing a crane on a platform are not earning 70K a year because of their uni education. Its all about the unions. When I was an apprentice I was forced to join the union. The dues were minimal but the backup was phenomenal. Every new pilot out of school should be 'pressed' into the union and that would stop the arse ******* that happens now. All workplaces should be unionised and when the guys up at HA are being impregnated by TET
we should all drop collective. Just imagine for a minute what action that would effect. No sar, no oil workers moving, no TV, no fire fighting, no powerline repairs, no telstra repairs, no beef burgers, no fat arses over uluru. Get in your ******* toyota and drive. Sorry, it just has to happen. I HAS TO - its impossible to get pilots to do this without external organisation. We need better wages, higher education standards for industry entry, better protection for families, better protection for self, better longevity, better tours, better care for families of those that die.
And there is the fact team. Look around. Those guys you are with now, trained with, worked on fires with, heard on the frequency. One or more of them is going to be killed or permanently maimed sometime soon. It might even be you. What are you going to do when you break your back cause the piece of **** lowsided into trees? What is your backup plan? Seen the cost of health and life insurance lately? Who apart from the Bristow, Esso, CHC have any level of personal care? And who are the ones at the greatest risk?
Its a dangerous job and the danger is accentuated by budget operators in every facet of the industry who bring the standards down, slash costs, maintain to the minimum and employ the cheapest. We cannot be trusted to regulate on our own.
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TET
I do hope you've been putting your hand up the correct orifice all these years; it might effect the price of beef otherwise.
COB
All very true but unfortunately pilots seem to be extroverts & don't work together with each other, not even within the same company. This happens around the world, not just in Oz. The backstabbing syndrome is alive & well, so improvements of pay, etc won't happen in the immediate future.
I do hope you've been putting your hand up the correct orifice all these years; it might effect the price of beef otherwise.
COB
All very true but unfortunately pilots seem to be extroverts & don't work together with each other, not even within the same company. This happens around the world, not just in Oz. The backstabbing syndrome is alive & well, so improvements of pay, etc won't happen in the immediate future.
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At the start of my career I was forced into a union. I also got screwed over by one faction of the union (fixed wing) using leverage to catch up and pass another (rotary wing). Back stabbing and ego was alive and well then, just as it is now. That was many years ago and I have had a distaste for unions ever since.
However, now I fully agree with CTOTB. In the current climate it is only some sort of organised front that will halt the self inflicted exploitation of helicopter pilots. Unfortunately, I think I will be well past retirement before this comes to pass in the Southern Hemisphere.
However, now I fully agree with CTOTB. In the current climate it is only some sort of organised front that will halt the self inflicted exploitation of helicopter pilots. Unfortunately, I think I will be well past retirement before this comes to pass in the Southern Hemisphere.
Originally Posted by Chairmanofthebored
All workplaces should be unionised and when the guys up at HA are being impregnated by TET we should all drop collective. Just imagine for a minute what action that would effect. No sar, no oil workers moving, no TV, no fire fighting, no powerline repairs, no telstra repairs, no beef burgers, no fat arses over uluru...
we should all drop collective. Just imagine for a minute what action that would effect. No sar, no oil workers moving, no TV, no fire fighting, no powerline repairs, no telstra repairs, no beef burgers, no fat arses over uluru...p.s. I believe many of those recently being uncomfortably impregnated at AH are now doing the impregnating very comfortably elsewhere, with more to cum
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Belly Tank
Is that not your AoC fronting for a Gold Coast helicopter company advertising on the web?
Also - is that comany owned by a couple of Kiwis?
I think the practice of borrowing an AoC has done more damage to the industry and therefore pilot conditions than any other arrangement. It has allowed more unknowns and less experienced individuals to get into the industry than by any other means.
Is that not your AoC fronting for a Gold Coast helicopter company advertising on the web?
Also - is that comany owned by a couple of Kiwis?
I think the practice of borrowing an AoC has done more damage to the industry and therefore pilot conditions than any other arrangement. It has allowed more unknowns and less experienced individuals to get into the industry than by any other means.
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I was a bit young to be an 89'er but I wonder if that would work these days, especially given the military method of operation. Just how many crewman would it take to spray locusts in a Kiowa 
What about the insurance ramifications? Would they use military aircraft not certified for passanger carrying operations offshore and how much training would those pilots need?
I think Helicopters are a little more complicated than airliners and the military pilot would only be capable of 50% of the current workload.
Plus, haven't they got enough to do in Timor and imagine all the bonuses they would want?
What about the insurance ramifications? Would they use military aircraft not certified for passanger carrying operations offshore and how much training would those pilots need?
I think Helicopters are a little more complicated than airliners and the military pilot would only be capable of 50%
of the current workload.Plus, haven't they got enough to do in Timor and imagine all the bonuses they would want?
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CoB,
Would like to agree with you, but what you are suggesting would require solidarity amongst the whole pilot group. Just look at your previous posts, you have alienated off-shore pilots, military pilots, seemingly anyone who isnt you. Solidarity of the sort your plan requires relies upon mutual respect (like that I have for your implied bush experience).
But then, what would I know, I'm just a crap institutionalised ex-mil pilot doing a non-rostered 24 hour shift (admittedly with an adititional 12 hours stanby at home) on EMS for about $1500... and I get the same for casual fire bombing too (thats bush work, isnt it?).
Support your mates, do the job well, put-up, shut-up or make your lot better. That always worked for us in the military, and it seems to still apply.
Best of luck. I think we can do better for EVERYONE in the industry.
Would like to agree with you, but what you are suggesting would require solidarity amongst the whole pilot group. Just look at your previous posts, you have alienated off-shore pilots, military pilots, seemingly anyone who isnt you. Solidarity of the sort your plan requires relies upon mutual respect (like that I have for your implied bush experience).
But then, what would I know, I'm just a crap institutionalised ex-mil pilot doing a non-rostered 24 hour shift (admittedly with an adititional 12 hours stanby at home) on EMS for about $1500... and I get the same for casual fire bombing too (thats bush work, isnt it?).
Support your mates, do the job well, put-up, shut-up or make your lot better. That always worked for us in the military, and it seems to still apply.
Best of luck. I think we can do better for EVERYONE in the industry.
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Compulsory Unionism ??!!??
Fortunately, it's illegal. It now stops every other industry getting screwed over.
But what can pilots do to protect themselves?
Join the union that already exists. The HAA. There's an AGM in October.
If you are pro-union and don't like the HAA, them who do you suggest we join?? If the HAA doesn't have the direction that you want, then join and provide that direction. (No, I'm not a voting member..) All I'm saying is that you don't have to re-invent the wheel, just keep the current one turning.
I am an aviation prostitute, I fly for hours because pilots with low hours don't actually earn money! If the mob I work for puts their rates up, we get under cut and then there is no money for anyone, including the CP. Expecting employees to work for less than the award wage is just as illegal as compulsory unionism, but who is going to bite the hand that feeds them and complain that the boss wont pay.
damned if you do and damned if you don't...
Remember, if you're not earning then you can't even claim the medical on tax!
But what can pilots do to protect themselves?
Join the union that already exists. The HAA. There's an AGM in October.
If you are pro-union and don't like the HAA, them who do you suggest we join?? If the HAA doesn't have the direction that you want, then join and provide that direction. (No, I'm not a voting member..) All I'm saying is that you don't have to re-invent the wheel, just keep the current one turning.
I am an aviation prostitute, I fly for hours because pilots with low hours don't actually earn money! If the mob I work for puts their rates up, we get under cut and then there is no money for anyone, including the CP. Expecting employees to work for less than the award wage is just as illegal as compulsory unionism, but who is going to bite the hand that feeds them and complain that the boss wont pay.
damned if you do and damned if you don't...
Remember, if you're not earning then you can't even claim the medical on tax!
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Same old hat
RWJackofall
I hear rumour that the big man(ceo) himself is in the straits at this time trying to get to the bottom of the hole causing the leak!!!
Sounds like a lot of old hat to my source. Dangle the carrot with promises of new contracts and more money to come for all.
Apparently won't hear about the latter for maybe 6 months or so(eh?)
Troops must be a bit weary of hearing that by now.
Cheers
Rotor
I hear rumour that the big man(ceo) himself is in the straits at this time trying to get to the bottom of the hole causing the leak!!!
Sounds like a lot of old hat to my source. Dangle the carrot with promises of new contracts and more money to come for all.
Apparently won't hear about the latter for maybe 6 months or so(eh?)
Troops must be a bit weary of hearing that by now.
Cheers
Rotor