The safety, or otherwise of Robinson's.......
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Originally Posted by HillerBee
A lot of flight schools in Canada make flight suits/helmets compulsary though.
I am constantly amazed at those that do not wear helmets, whose business it is to work amongst the leaves, all despite their Insurance underwriters, brokers and ops manuals constant referral to the use of helmets.
Blue mirror? no idea, ask a test cricketer, they seem to have em.
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Thanks Guys for your input.
I may look into the co$t of a suit & helmet & if its too far outta my reach for the moment then look at getting all the right gear in cotton.
Can anyone reccommend where those types of supplies can be found?
1 stop shop ?
As for the a problem with leather , the main issue is that they will take the heat and transfer it straight to the skin & cook you & weld them to the skin.
Its kinda like welding , by the time you feel the heat on your hands, there is sooo much heat still transfering/radiating through that you are going to blister & best get them gloves off asap cause more heat is coming through.
Course proper welding gloves & sensativity to touch is not in the same sentence.
Thanks again
HF
I may look into the co$t of a suit & helmet & if its too far outta my reach for the moment then look at getting all the right gear in cotton.
Can anyone reccommend where those types of supplies can be found?
1 stop shop ?
As for the a problem with leather , the main issue is that they will take the heat and transfer it straight to the skin & cook you & weld them to the skin.
Its kinda like welding , by the time you feel the heat on your hands, there is sooo much heat still transfering/radiating through that you are going to blister & best get them gloves off asap cause more heat is coming through.
Course proper welding gloves & sensativity to touch is not in the same sentence.
Thanks again
HF
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Nomex and Flight suits
I have to say, this has been an interesting thread, and its great to see everyone bring there knowledge and background to the group.
Just following up here with something I found on a similiar topic, and it seems that some, either hate or love Nomex. But one thing that I don't think anyone would disaggree with is, that its not a fixall.
In fact it can give you a false sense of security. Its only a single layer usually in flight suits, and it can still melt when in contact with fire. It just doesn't stick to you when it does (like most other synthetics), and extinguishes itself when the flame is removed. Race car fire suits have multiple layers, usually mixed with Kevlar to give additional protection.
Same thing with gloves. Straight single layer nomex gloves won't protect you after the first flash or fire typically, especially if a flammable liquid gets on it, the Nomex will still burn. I have seen it demonstrated several times, both in training and in actual fires with victims suffering major burns. The nomex gloves that do work are again multilayered with another product (leather, kevlar or other formulated material) to give it some sustainability. Nomex is expensive, and you may need to look at everything and do a cost versus safety analysis.
Drawing from the fire service, structural fire gear has multiple layers of fire protection; outer fire resistive layer (PBI, nomex etc, insulation barrier(s) and vapor barrier, (and air gaps between). You will never find a product that can do this with a single layer. Some wildland firefighters like myself, use a nomex shirt and pants, with a long sleeve shirt and cotton pants to create a second layer. Many tests have been done by several gov't organizations, that have shown adding the second layer is saving lives, as apposed to those that only wear a single layer of nomex over bare skin. All I am saying is that a normal single layer flight suit may or may not provide the protection you need or want........ A fire is a fire in the end...... just the amount and time lapse of the fire is whats different.
Here is some reading from another source if you have a few minutes, gives a nice breakdown from a fellow pilots point of view along with some followups:
http://www.ipilot.com/forum/message.aspx?pid=84345
Last note: Not sure why everyone is on the band wagon about leather being unacceptable because of "vapor" burns. Check your sources before saying something your not all 100% sure about. There are different kinds and grades of leather gloves, and some that will wick away moisture along with being slim line. If your having a situation that is causing that much heat and fire, my gut feeling is that standard nomex gloves would not fair any better, and very possibly worse. Once a liquid gets on a glove (someone mentioned fuel being spilled on them from above), all bets are off and anything goes. You may not experiance vapor burns, but the flammable liquid burns from the fuel will certainly not help the situation. With a layered Nomex glove, that may be a different story, and I would agree that it would be better than leather anyday. Check out the different products and see for yourself, and do whats best for you. And while your at it, you may want to look at nomex hoods to cover your face/heads along with socks and underwear..... Now that I have put my neck back on the chopping block, chop away!
Just following up here with something I found on a similiar topic, and it seems that some, either hate or love Nomex. But one thing that I don't think anyone would disaggree with is, that its not a fixall.
In fact it can give you a false sense of security. Its only a single layer usually in flight suits, and it can still melt when in contact with fire. It just doesn't stick to you when it does (like most other synthetics), and extinguishes itself when the flame is removed. Race car fire suits have multiple layers, usually mixed with Kevlar to give additional protection.
Same thing with gloves. Straight single layer nomex gloves won't protect you after the first flash or fire typically, especially if a flammable liquid gets on it, the Nomex will still burn. I have seen it demonstrated several times, both in training and in actual fires with victims suffering major burns. The nomex gloves that do work are again multilayered with another product (leather, kevlar or other formulated material) to give it some sustainability. Nomex is expensive, and you may need to look at everything and do a cost versus safety analysis.
Drawing from the fire service, structural fire gear has multiple layers of fire protection; outer fire resistive layer (PBI, nomex etc, insulation barrier(s) and vapor barrier, (and air gaps between). You will never find a product that can do this with a single layer. Some wildland firefighters like myself, use a nomex shirt and pants, with a long sleeve shirt and cotton pants to create a second layer. Many tests have been done by several gov't organizations, that have shown adding the second layer is saving lives, as apposed to those that only wear a single layer of nomex over bare skin. All I am saying is that a normal single layer flight suit may or may not provide the protection you need or want........ A fire is a fire in the end...... just the amount and time lapse of the fire is whats different.
Here is some reading from another source if you have a few minutes, gives a nice breakdown from a fellow pilots point of view along with some followups:
http://www.ipilot.com/forum/message.aspx?pid=84345
Last note: Not sure why everyone is on the band wagon about leather being unacceptable because of "vapor" burns. Check your sources before saying something your not all 100% sure about. There are different kinds and grades of leather gloves, and some that will wick away moisture along with being slim line. If your having a situation that is causing that much heat and fire, my gut feeling is that standard nomex gloves would not fair any better, and very possibly worse. Once a liquid gets on a glove (someone mentioned fuel being spilled on them from above), all bets are off and anything goes. You may not experiance vapor burns, but the flammable liquid burns from the fuel will certainly not help the situation. With a layered Nomex glove, that may be a different story, and I would agree that it would be better than leather anyday. Check out the different products and see for yourself, and do whats best for you. And while your at it, you may want to look at nomex hoods to cover your face/heads along with socks and underwear..... Now that I have put my neck back on the chopping block, chop away!
Last edited by brushfire21; 9th Aug 2006 at 06:44.
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Brushfire
Thankyou for your constructive input and that of the extra reading.
I think you're saying that two layers is relatively easy to acheive and a commonsense approach. Say long sleeved heavy cotton shirt and jeans under a nomex coverall is a combo that I used to use comfortably enough in fairly strong ambient temperatures. The bloody nomex seems to have shrunk of late!
I note in another thread that 'Whirls' is into leather fairly seriously???
Some have said that helmets help allay hearing loss, well the close fitting helmets I would say yes but the SPH models that I wore for years seem to drum a lot and let lots of noise in. The vibes seem to do just as much damage via the hard bone behind the ear as directly through the ear. For the direct noise, noise suppressing earpieces can be fitted to most helmets nowadays
Passing medicals now is a real chore, with a couple of funny stroies to tell some day.
One thing we used do was encourage people to think about getting out of their seat belt buckle for example, if they have just woken up after a bit of a knock and their fingers are already starting to arc backwards from a festering fire, think about it.
Also what gear do they carry within arms reach of their sitting position, given that they may not be able to move. Immediate emerg gear under the seat NO! NO!
The worst one I see in that line is the small fire extinguishers mounted at the front of the cabin, well away from the reach of a broken back.
The list can go on but I must say that I believe the R22 is a very survivable A/C as long as it not used as a lawn dart.
Thankyou for your constructive input and that of the extra reading.
I think you're saying that two layers is relatively easy to acheive and a commonsense approach. Say long sleeved heavy cotton shirt and jeans under a nomex coverall is a combo that I used to use comfortably enough in fairly strong ambient temperatures. The bloody nomex seems to have shrunk of late!
I note in another thread that 'Whirls' is into leather fairly seriously???
Some have said that helmets help allay hearing loss, well the close fitting helmets I would say yes but the SPH models that I wore for years seem to drum a lot and let lots of noise in. The vibes seem to do just as much damage via the hard bone behind the ear as directly through the ear. For the direct noise, noise suppressing earpieces can be fitted to most helmets nowadays
Passing medicals now is a real chore, with a couple of funny stroies to tell some day.
One thing we used do was encourage people to think about getting out of their seat belt buckle for example, if they have just woken up after a bit of a knock and their fingers are already starting to arc backwards from a festering fire, think about it.
Also what gear do they carry within arms reach of their sitting position, given that they may not be able to move. Immediate emerg gear under the seat NO! NO!
The worst one I see in that line is the small fire extinguishers mounted at the front of the cabin, well away from the reach of a broken back.
The list can go on but I must say that I believe the R22 is a very survivable A/C as long as it not used as a lawn dart.
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Researching .........
Ok so after an hour of research this is what I have come up with.
I have gone for Mil spec as that is the common standard, not cause I want to look like I am in the military again or for the wanna be's. Just practical here.
Nomex/Kevlar flight suit ( overalls ) Mil spec seem to be available from no more that $200.
Most colors , orange, Blue, good ole Olive drab.
About $190 from a company that makes them for the military.
Surprising , I thought they would be really expensive but not so....I dont think $200 is bad for what you get.
Nomex Flight Gloves, Mil spec , lots a colors and types with Leather palms & fingers for sensativity/touch ( palm sides only ) back is full nomex.
$30 or less.
Again I am impressed.
Flight Helmets there are so many types here that you can get lost looking but again if we go for Mil spec ( which by thet way seems like is not as good as some of the civilian models because of mics & speakers only ) you pay around $750.
Add about $50 for the civilian model ( mil spec on bucket not electronics )
Start at about $300 and end around $1000 or so for some crazy top end gear.
Dual visors clear and , mirror , grey smoke , yellow.
Lots to choose from including second hand , rebuilt new militarty types or old.
if the Mil use them then I am happy to as well, its just a brain bucket in the end.
needs to be comfortable try before you buy, & practical , weight is an issue so take a look at its weight ,
To me I dont care what color it is ( I ride road bikes & looks isnt as important as what it will do for me when it is supposed to ).
so white , black , green , blue ...I dont care but again you can get it in many colors, white & green are the popular ones.
By the way , you spend about the same sort of money for a bike helmet but no Comms thrown in .
Boots, well dang, if we have come this far lets look at boots too.
I think black is the common color, mil spec or not , comfort is really the major issue.
Ankle support and the higher the better for protection too
leather upper and a good non slip sould is about as tech as I am gonna go
here.
Cost .. any where from $30 to about $60.
So its up to you in the end how much you want to spend on PPE ( Personal Protective Equipment )
All gear has some sort of warrenty.
You may never need it but if you do I bet you will be either glad you spent a little more on the good gear or will be wishing that you did.
Ask the Military trained guys..... would you want to do it with out the gear or prefered that you did?
Any comments on the gear whilst we are on the subject , I would love to hear your thoughts on all of this.
I think I will go shopping for some gear now that I know the costs, because I know the benefits.
HF
I have gone for Mil spec as that is the common standard, not cause I want to look like I am in the military again or for the wanna be's. Just practical here.
Nomex/Kevlar flight suit ( overalls ) Mil spec seem to be available from no more that $200.
Most colors , orange, Blue, good ole Olive drab.
About $190 from a company that makes them for the military.
Surprising , I thought they would be really expensive but not so....I dont think $200 is bad for what you get.
Nomex Flight Gloves, Mil spec , lots a colors and types with Leather palms & fingers for sensativity/touch ( palm sides only ) back is full nomex.
$30 or less.
Again I am impressed.
Flight Helmets there are so many types here that you can get lost looking but again if we go for Mil spec ( which by thet way seems like is not as good as some of the civilian models because of mics & speakers only ) you pay around $750.
Add about $50 for the civilian model ( mil spec on bucket not electronics )
Start at about $300 and end around $1000 or so for some crazy top end gear.
Dual visors clear and , mirror , grey smoke , yellow.
Lots to choose from including second hand , rebuilt new militarty types or old.
if the Mil use them then I am happy to as well, its just a brain bucket in the end.
needs to be comfortable try before you buy, & practical , weight is an issue so take a look at its weight ,
To me I dont care what color it is ( I ride road bikes & looks isnt as important as what it will do for me when it is supposed to ).
so white , black , green , blue ...I dont care but again you can get it in many colors, white & green are the popular ones.
By the way , you spend about the same sort of money for a bike helmet but no Comms thrown in .
Boots, well dang, if we have come this far lets look at boots too.
I think black is the common color, mil spec or not , comfort is really the major issue.
Ankle support and the higher the better for protection too
leather upper and a good non slip sould is about as tech as I am gonna go
here.
Cost .. any where from $30 to about $60.
So its up to you in the end how much you want to spend on PPE ( Personal Protective Equipment )
All gear has some sort of warrenty.
You may never need it but if you do I bet you will be either glad you spent a little more on the good gear or will be wishing that you did.
Ask the Military trained guys..... would you want to do it with out the gear or prefered that you did?
Any comments on the gear whilst we are on the subject , I would love to hear your thoughts on all of this.
I think I will go shopping for some gear now that I know the costs, because I know the benefits.HF
