The safety, or otherwise of Robinson's.......
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Some sobering thoughts here for sure, and in the other related thread, "New Robinson safety notice---"
thanks 'Rotorbee', I'll make a point of remembering that philosophy re leather gloves, never too old to learn.
I guess we thought better than nothing and we did find that it was very difficult to buy the larger size Nomex gloves and suits. Then there was the prob of the gloves leather palm inserts shrinking after about three months and new ones needed. not a good product.
'Nick' makes a good point in the other thread, however that will be shot to shreds when it is discovered that as 'Belly Tank' says, Robinson agents are handing out helmets and flight jackets - the latter of which I am sure are of the synthetic variety.
I must have a quick dig at 'Hillerbee' on the way past with his quote - "Had several engine failures all very unexpected of course". - Are you suggesting that fire might not have been an issue here?
All in all Mr Robinson cannot get off too freely with his his rather glib safety notice. It is simply not acceptable to just have it published as a "get-out-of-jail-free-card", put some meat into it and provide the goods!
The very positive upside would then be that all pilots get to hopefully think - for at least a fleeting second - what reasons might there be for wearing flame proof material and what can I do to make my operation safer?
As far as I am aware other manufactures abstain from these sorts of comments, however it could be that Mr Robinson might be on a new wave of thinking, as it certainly is frightening to see pilots of any sort parading around in A/C in synthetic crease proof attire.
Remember the aversion to first wearing seat belts in motor cars!
thanks 'Rotorbee', I'll make a point of remembering that philosophy re leather gloves, never too old to learn.
I guess we thought better than nothing and we did find that it was very difficult to buy the larger size Nomex gloves and suits. Then there was the prob of the gloves leather palm inserts shrinking after about three months and new ones needed. not a good product.
'Nick' makes a good point in the other thread, however that will be shot to shreds when it is discovered that as 'Belly Tank' says, Robinson agents are handing out helmets and flight jackets - the latter of which I am sure are of the synthetic variety.
I must have a quick dig at 'Hillerbee' on the way past with his quote - "Had several engine failures all very unexpected of course". - Are you suggesting that fire might not have been an issue here?
All in all Mr Robinson cannot get off too freely with his his rather glib safety notice. It is simply not acceptable to just have it published as a "get-out-of-jail-free-card", put some meat into it and provide the goods!
The very positive upside would then be that all pilots get to hopefully think - for at least a fleeting second - what reasons might there be for wearing flame proof material and what can I do to make my operation safer?
As far as I am aware other manufactures abstain from these sorts of comments, however it could be that Mr Robinson might be on a new wave of thinking, as it certainly is frightening to see pilots of any sort parading around in A/C in synthetic crease proof attire.
Remember the aversion to first wearing seat belts in motor cars!
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As topendtrq and others have said its just an arse covering excercise "bulletin" to state that in CASE of an accident and "MY FRANK ROBINSON BUILT" aircraft catches on fire after a crash, you "the pilot" should have worn this protective equipment to stop you being burnt!
..........LAWYERS
(in favour of Frank)....have a field party.........spare me Mr Robinson. we understand you have a monopoly in this market but be a bit realistic big fella
.......did i hear Bell were going to design a 4 seater to compete
..........LAWYERS (in favour of Frank)....have a field party.........spare me Mr Robinson. we understand you have a monopoly in this market but be a bit realistic big fella .......did i hear Bell were going to design a 4 seater to compete
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I spent last week at the Robinson factory safety course and Mr. Robinson brought this subject up. I don't think the Nomex suits are meant to be a get out of jail free card for a crash, but rather another tool to improve your odds should a crash occur. Having spent several days discussing safety and watching home videos of helicopters crashing and listening to accounts of accident investigations not one person in the course (that I know of) considered it a CYA safety notice. Tim Tucker led most of the presentations and he seemed very sincere about improving pilot safety.
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I agree with Gerhardt, Frank does seem very keen on safety from a personal viewpoint, the safety course itself being a prime example.
We think nothing of people donning safety gear for motorbikes or any kind of racing. HEMS crews and army all wear helmets/suits. Compared to the cost of flying, they're not overly expensive. It's just cultural, and if he's trying to change the culture, I applaud him! I'm fairly tempted to buy a suit & helmet, but safety notices are more likely to increase that temptation and turn it into a purchase.
BW
We think nothing of people donning safety gear for motorbikes or any kind of racing. HEMS crews and army all wear helmets/suits. Compared to the cost of flying, they're not overly expensive. It's just cultural, and if he's trying to change the culture, I applaud him! I'm fairly tempted to buy a suit & helmet, but safety notices are more likely to increase that temptation and turn it into a purchase.
BW
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Why is it hitting the ground in the first place ?
I appologise in advance to all those that take offence to the following comment but although I think its great to hand out all the neato things like a nomex suit & helmet, & I am sure that the purpose of them being issued is not a legal thing but having been involved in safety & root cause analysis I would have thought that this is a bandaid to the problem not a fix.
Its like saying " Hey , these little suckers catch fire after a really good impact... better wear this "
Would the better solution be that the helicopter not catch fire unless it is an impact that is beyond what the humon body tolerates.
I dont like or understand people making a fix it type of comment with out offering a solution.
To better understand the problem, what is it that is causing the fire in the first place , if its a fuel cap re-engineer it to not pop off , or double skinned fuel bladder cells or something to the like if its the tank thats rupturing.
Root cause analysis is basically asking why till you cant answer it or ask it anymore.
Is it a low rotor inertia problem that is causing the impact?...... Fix that problem too.
Why is it that the helicopter is crashing in the first place..... lets find out that.
Get all the facts in & offer some solutions before blazing the cannons.
HF
Its like saying " Hey , these little suckers catch fire after a really good impact... better wear this "
Would the better solution be that the helicopter not catch fire unless it is an impact that is beyond what the humon body tolerates.
I dont like or understand people making a fix it type of comment with out offering a solution.
To better understand the problem, what is it that is causing the fire in the first place , if its a fuel cap re-engineer it to not pop off , or double skinned fuel bladder cells or something to the like if its the tank thats rupturing.
Root cause analysis is basically asking why till you cant answer it or ask it anymore.
Is it a low rotor inertia problem that is causing the impact?...... Fix that problem too.
Why is it that the helicopter is crashing in the first place..... lets find out that.
Get all the facts in & offer some solutions before blazing the cannons.
HF
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Teachings part 1
I have this to ask as well
If we teach the do's and don'ts of safety at the start , would it be impractical or silly to say to a newbie student pilot, wear this stuff ( nomex gloves, suit & helmet) or might people think you are taking your career or safety a little to seriously?
What if the student pilot does this off his own back at the beginning?
If military pilots do it why not civvy pilots?
Lessons are learnt best from other peoples teaching so..........
If I turned up to my first flight in a nomex suit with all the gear would I have to endure snickers and comments from the flight line or would being safety concious be repected and understood?
If we teach the do's and don'ts of safety at the start , would it be impractical or silly to say to a newbie student pilot, wear this stuff ( nomex gloves, suit & helmet) or might people think you are taking your career or safety a little to seriously?
What if the student pilot does this off his own back at the beginning?
If military pilots do it why not civvy pilots?
Lessons are learnt best from other peoples teaching so..........
If I turned up to my first flight in a nomex suit with all the gear would I have to endure snickers and comments from the flight line or would being safety concious be repected and understood?
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As I said before I always wear the full gear. And I advise students to wear the same. Not all of them do though (tells a lot about their attitude).
Since we're not in the military we can't really make it compulsory but we as instructors have to set the standard.
Since we're not in the military we can't really make it compulsory but we as instructors have to set the standard.
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Hiller Bee,
I wonder why it is that schools dont do it ...at least from what I have seen.
Why is it that schools go for the white shirt & black pants for the training.
I like the safety of the correct Personal Protective Equipment.
The uniform looks better I guess but safety is safety.
I have good reason for wanting to wear the nomex suit and dome I just dont want to have to explain why all the time or would you think from an instructors point of view that it would not be an issue?
HF
I wonder why it is that schools dont do it ...at least from what I have seen.
Why is it that schools go for the white shirt & black pants for the training.
I like the safety of the correct Personal Protective Equipment.
The uniform looks better I guess but safety is safety.
I have good reason for wanting to wear the nomex suit and dome I just dont want to have to explain why all the time or would you think from an instructors point of view that it would not be an issue?
HF
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I don't think a white (polyester) shirt looks better as a flightsuit. In fact I think it looks rediculous. I consider a flightsuit the right 'uniform' for helicopter flying.
A lot of flight schools in Canada make flight suits/helmets compulsary though.
A lot of flight schools in Canada make flight suits/helmets compulsary though.
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Sorry HB thats what I mean.
Out of the flight operations sure the white poly looks fine but in operations I think the suit is more practical.
Safety first.
I guess I will just ask if it would be allowable for flight time at the school when I get there & explain my reasoning if I need to.
HF
Out of the flight operations sure the white poly looks fine but in operations I think the suit is more practical.
Safety first.
I guess I will just ask if it would be allowable for flight time at the school when I get there & explain my reasoning if I need to.
HF
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Another sobering thought is reminding oneself of the action brought against the owners of Gunbah station in NSW when an employee – Daniel Croker- fell from his horse and was trampled, died.
The case was used to benchmark the use of hard hats for stockmen, basically the wealthy family that owned it was targeted I should say, the judge drew some criticisms as judges do, some of his findings being very hard to follow.
Check it out on google.
The upshot is that most if not all of the large pastoral companies and many others now mandate the use of helmets for their horse riding employees, and especially for quad bike or two wheel bike riders.
Quad bike accidents in the rural sector have been topical for a while as their use is fast increasing. On king Island there have a large number of fatalities; one coroner has been noted as strongly criticising a manufacturer for not making buyers of their product aware of the dangers.
I know that one pastoral stock agency – Elders – years ago used to require helmets for employees doing property inspections by helicopter and of course during BTEC all Northern Territory stock inspectors (70 odd) were kitted out with nomex suits and gloves and SPH4’s and of course Redwings boots, but the boot bit was after a bit of a – ahem - shonk.
I do know of one flying school that gets their students kitted out in nomex suits, as we all know there seem to be plenty of accidents in this area. It would seem quite simple for schools to have suits, gloves and helmets avbl for hire by students.
There is a good opening for distributors of such gear do deals with flight schools, rub each others back so to speak. Anyone thinks that it’s a bit silly turning up in nomex suit, try riding around in the oz sunlight all day with a helmet instead of your personalised Akubra.
There would be plenty of initiatives that manufacturers and or schools could exhibit to promote such use, rewards for various activities for example.
The case was used to benchmark the use of hard hats for stockmen, basically the wealthy family that owned it was targeted I should say, the judge drew some criticisms as judges do, some of his findings being very hard to follow.
Check it out on google.
The upshot is that most if not all of the large pastoral companies and many others now mandate the use of helmets for their horse riding employees, and especially for quad bike or two wheel bike riders.
Quad bike accidents in the rural sector have been topical for a while as their use is fast increasing. On king Island there have a large number of fatalities; one coroner has been noted as strongly criticising a manufacturer for not making buyers of their product aware of the dangers.
I know that one pastoral stock agency – Elders – years ago used to require helmets for employees doing property inspections by helicopter and of course during BTEC all Northern Territory stock inspectors (70 odd) were kitted out with nomex suits and gloves and SPH4’s and of course Redwings boots, but the boot bit was after a bit of a – ahem - shonk.
I do know of one flying school that gets their students kitted out in nomex suits, as we all know there seem to be plenty of accidents in this area. It would seem quite simple for schools to have suits, gloves and helmets avbl for hire by students.
There is a good opening for distributors of such gear do deals with flight schools, rub each others back so to speak. Anyone thinks that it’s a bit silly turning up in nomex suit, try riding around in the oz sunlight all day with a helmet instead of your personalised Akubra.
There would be plenty of initiatives that manufacturers and or schools could exhibit to promote such use, rewards for various activities for example.
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There is a good opening for distributors of such gear do deals with flight schools, rub each others back so to speak. Anyone thinks that it’s a bit silly turning up in nomex suit, try riding around in the oz sunlight all day with a helmet instead of your personalised Akubra.
I am not sure what you mean by this Topend, as in I dont quite understand what you are getting at....are you pro or con the idea of it being done in Oz?
Cheers
HF
I am not sure what you mean by this Topend, as in I dont quite understand what you are getting at....are you pro or con the idea of it being done in Oz?
Cheers
HF
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HF
Very much pro the idea and suggesting that schools and others could do lots to promote it.
I'm saying that it's a lot easier to wear a nomex suit than it is to wear a helmet without sun shades all day in the sun. although having said that i am aware that there are now various brands of horseriding-helmet-plus-shady-brims coming onto the market. Very hard though to get one to conform to some of the saftey standards that prevail as in motorbike helmets.
As an aside the ability to tuck and roll ones head when falling from height is a different factor from when falling from a bike and sliding.
As a point in interest you should measure up your old SPH4 against such standards. bloody hopeless!
There could be a bit of mix and match, I.E. a nomex waistcoat idea with heavy denim jeans. One area that is often overlooked is the socks, you don't run far when your achilles heel is being melted into by burning plastic.
Not being trendsetters here, Genghis Khan had his troops wear silk when going into battle because he worked out that it used to often go in with the spear and was a lot cleaner than other fabric. Being a bit of a mercenary he worked out that silk helped his manpower-return-to-battle statistics considerably
Very much pro the idea and suggesting that schools and others could do lots to promote it.
I'm saying that it's a lot easier to wear a nomex suit than it is to wear a helmet without sun shades all day in the sun. although having said that i am aware that there are now various brands of horseriding-helmet-plus-shady-brims coming onto the market. Very hard though to get one to conform to some of the saftey standards that prevail as in motorbike helmets.
As an aside the ability to tuck and roll ones head when falling from height is a different factor from when falling from a bike and sliding.
As a point in interest you should measure up your old SPH4 against such standards. bloody hopeless!
There could be a bit of mix and match, I.E. a nomex waistcoat idea with heavy denim jeans. One area that is often overlooked is the socks, you don't run far when your achilles heel is being melted into by burning plastic.
Not being trendsetters here, Genghis Khan had his troops wear silk when going into battle because he worked out that it used to often go in with the spear and was a lot cleaner than other fabric. Being a bit of a mercenary he worked out that silk helped his manpower-return-to-battle statistics considerably
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pretty simple eh
If your a worried about it just wear cotton, jeans and a thick cotton shirt. They will not melt on you, have a look at what nomex flight suits are made of and you will find its mostly cotton. But remember its not fire proof, if you get fuel on you its going to hurt, irrespective of what you are wearing. The helmet will help you to stay conscious so you can get out before it gets warm. Just common sense really, like seat belts, life jackets, CO2 detectors, the list goes one.
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Leather Gloves.....
Quote from RotorBee:
"Don't ever use leather gloves as a protection against fire. Once on fire they do not let pass vapor and your hands will not be grilled but cocked. Works on lower temperatures too. Boots are not that critical because they are normaly thicker and have several layers. If you want something for your hands, use the real stuff that is out there."
I am going to say that nomex is a good product and if one can afford it, then buy it, but having having something fire resistant is better than nothing at all. Leather gloves have been used for a long time in the wildland firefighting business (bush fires to others). I have not heard of the hands getting "cooked" as RotorBee mentioned, but very possible.
I follow LOD's (Line of Duty Deaths) and injuries being I am part of the wildland FF forces out there. I have not heard of many reports if any at all that mentioned leather gloves made the situation worse. Have seen many many pictures of fellow FF's with burn injuries, and usually the hands and feet are typically covered with leather and have less injuries to those areas of the bodies that were only wearing a single layer of FF gear (pants for USFS as an exampe).
Not tryig to stir the pot, but Leather and Nomex have there place. FYI, last I knew the smelters still use leather for hand protection..... just my .005 cents worth.
"Don't ever use leather gloves as a protection against fire. Once on fire they do not let pass vapor and your hands will not be grilled but cocked. Works on lower temperatures too. Boots are not that critical because they are normaly thicker and have several layers. If you want something for your hands, use the real stuff that is out there."
I am going to say that nomex is a good product and if one can afford it, then buy it, but having having something fire resistant is better than nothing at all. Leather gloves have been used for a long time in the wildland firefighting business (bush fires to others). I have not heard of the hands getting "cooked" as RotorBee mentioned, but very possible.
I follow LOD's (Line of Duty Deaths) and injuries being I am part of the wildland FF forces out there. I have not heard of many reports if any at all that mentioned leather gloves made the situation worse. Have seen many many pictures of fellow FF's with burn injuries, and usually the hands and feet are typically covered with leather and have less injuries to those areas of the bodies that were only wearing a single layer of FF gear (pants for USFS as an exampe).
Not tryig to stir the pot, but Leather and Nomex have there place. FYI, last I knew the smelters still use leather for hand protection..... just my .005 cents worth.
@ brushfire
You are certainly right with your point of view regarding the gloves used for firefighting, but try to fly with them.
I refere to the tight fitting type of glove, the ones the gentlemen driver uses. It is completely different, if you deal with a bush fire - wood - and a "helicopter fire" - fuel. If your gloves a soaked with fuel they burn like a candle and that will cook your hands. The real stuff will keep the heat away from your hands longer and dry hands will support more heat. Hot vapor is really bad for your skin, because water vapor contains a huge amount of energie. That is all there is to it. No gloves at all is certainly worse.
You are certainly right with your point of view regarding the gloves used for firefighting, but try to fly with them.
I refere to the tight fitting type of glove, the ones the gentlemen driver uses. It is completely different, if you deal with a bush fire - wood - and a "helicopter fire" - fuel. If your gloves a soaked with fuel they burn like a candle and that will cook your hands. The real stuff will keep the heat away from your hands longer and dry hands will support more heat. Hot vapor is really bad for your skin, because water vapor contains a huge amount of energie. That is all there is to it. No gloves at all is certainly worse.
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May I add that the Bone Dome also is very good at saving you hearing from the high pitch your turbines make. Which (so I am told) the normal headsets are unable to protect you from since the rest of your head is not protected.
I am wearing an Apha heli helmet at work and am very happy with it and felt no illeffects in this desert heat we have been having recently. Some of my colleagues are suffering from sweat running down from up top thanks to the leather inserts but mine has some form of cloth which soaks it all up. So for me it's a no brainer, also you could airbrush them which would maybe make them more acceptable.
Now were can I buy a blue mirror sunvisor for my helmet?
I am wearing an Apha heli helmet at work and am very happy with it and felt no illeffects in this desert heat we have been having recently. Some of my colleagues are suffering from sweat running down from up top thanks to the leather inserts but mine has some form of cloth which soaks it all up. So for me it's a no brainer, also you could airbrush them which would maybe make them more acceptable.
Now were can I buy a blue mirror sunvisor for my helmet?