Police Observer
Hi, first option is to join the Police and then attempt to get onto Air support (Big demand for that job). The second option would be to apply for civilian observer when (if) you see one advertised. Things are changing in the Police aviation world so you never know.
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Personally I would forget it for a bit. Most if not all forces are not recruiting. When they do start recruiting, it seems that you will need to join up as a special constable first, this being a new way to cut corners on costs and training, though in fairness it is not a bad thing to do. You will then have 2 years probationary and then can look to specialize in disciplines. The competition will be immense, it is a good job in the force, plenty of prestige yet not that many places, and some forces still share the chopper, so even less chance.
Why is it particularly that you want to do this?
Gaz
Why is it particularly that you want to do this?
Gaz
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Mike, I see from your other posts you're very interested in a flying career of some sort. Police Air Observer is very definately a policing job done from the air (by both police officers and some civilian observers). I point this out as you would have another few years before you could apply to join the police due to your age, and gaining entry is becoming very difficult as most forces have a recruiting freeze due to the economy. The civilian route is even harder as there are fewer positions and police civilian staff are being made redundant in their thousands. Those that are civilian observers have to my knowledge some years of experience in other roles within the police structure before applying for observer training.
In summary it's a tiny 'industry' (33 aircraft, 350 observers, 120 pilots) with its own culture, rewards and hardships and it's getting smaller (23 aircraft by 2015). Your age would preclude you being involved until at least 2015 and who knows what will be the status of air observer recruiting at that time. Good luck
In summary it's a tiny 'industry' (33 aircraft, 350 observers, 120 pilots) with its own culture, rewards and hardships and it's getting smaller (23 aircraft by 2015). Your age would preclude you being involved until at least 2015 and who knows what will be the status of air observer recruiting at that time. Good luck
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Trolley, I'm afraid you're about 5 years out of date. The Met did conduct a trial for about a year using one of the civilian ops controllers as a front observer (camera operator) but for a number of reasons the trial was never extended.
Chief Bottle Washer
In later years there was a tendency to experiment with civilian Police Air observers but forces still wanted to play safe and tended to look for ex military crewmen or others used to working around aircraft.
The problem was that they very often lacked the "Nose" of an experienced Police officer.
The problem was that they very often lacked the "Nose" of an experienced Police officer.
JAFO,
In my case, No hard evidence, just a history of working with the issue since 1984. Time & time again, Ive seen Police observers sticking with a search, or searching a particular area for no obvious reason except their police experience and "nose" told them to.Very often a well hidden prisoner has resulted.
Neither have I ever been convinced that it is a good idea to spend shed loads of money on any piece of kit and then not get the best bang for the buck out of it. And for me the key to all of that is in having the best and most proffesional pilot you can find, and the best and most experienced thief takers you can have as observers.
The accountant, bless their hearts, seem to think that money can be saved by using civvi observers. But can it? Lets look at it.
Firstly by the time you have set the pay scale point, having regard for all the skills required, flying pay etc etc, then added shift allowance and weekend enhanced pay etc you are rapidly approaching the sort of money you would be paying the Police officer.
Now lets look at the negatives. Aircraft can and do go wrong, weather can on occasions become unflyable, for periods of more than one day. A number of other issues can, and from time to time will, ground the unit. With the police observers you can re-deploy them to ground based units for ordinary patrol duties ( There is a school of thought that says that you should do this anyway from time to time to keep them aware of real policing ) BUT you cannot re-deploy a civvi observer. He or she will have a contract and that is that. They have little flexibility in their use.
As I said you just spent a fortune on the aircraft, you MUST now get the best out of it. Its a POLICE aircraft, required to do a POLICE job. The Pilot (in the UK anyway) will by necessity be a civilian. I suggest the observers making the POLICE operational decisions need to be police officers too!
Several forces have tried using civilian observers, but none have found the arguement so cost effective that they have shouted it from the rooftops.
And despite what others, NPAS and politicians, will tell you UK Police air support has never operated in Silo's. The co-operation and communication between Air Support units has always been a lesson to other disciplines within the Police service on how to do it.. When something goes really right or really wrong in one unit, the others hear about it very quickly. Sometimes within minutes!
tigerfish
In my case, No hard evidence, just a history of working with the issue since 1984. Time & time again, Ive seen Police observers sticking with a search, or searching a particular area for no obvious reason except their police experience and "nose" told them to.Very often a well hidden prisoner has resulted.
Neither have I ever been convinced that it is a good idea to spend shed loads of money on any piece of kit and then not get the best bang for the buck out of it. And for me the key to all of that is in having the best and most proffesional pilot you can find, and the best and most experienced thief takers you can have as observers.
The accountant, bless their hearts, seem to think that money can be saved by using civvi observers. But can it? Lets look at it.
Firstly by the time you have set the pay scale point, having regard for all the skills required, flying pay etc etc, then added shift allowance and weekend enhanced pay etc you are rapidly approaching the sort of money you would be paying the Police officer.
Now lets look at the negatives. Aircraft can and do go wrong, weather can on occasions become unflyable, for periods of more than one day. A number of other issues can, and from time to time will, ground the unit. With the police observers you can re-deploy them to ground based units for ordinary patrol duties ( There is a school of thought that says that you should do this anyway from time to time to keep them aware of real policing ) BUT you cannot re-deploy a civvi observer. He or she will have a contract and that is that. They have little flexibility in their use.
As I said you just spent a fortune on the aircraft, you MUST now get the best out of it. Its a POLICE aircraft, required to do a POLICE job. The Pilot (in the UK anyway) will by necessity be a civilian. I suggest the observers making the POLICE operational decisions need to be police officers too!
Several forces have tried using civilian observers, but none have found the arguement so cost effective that they have shouted it from the rooftops.
And despite what others, NPAS and politicians, will tell you UK Police air support has never operated in Silo's. The co-operation and communication between Air Support units has always been a lesson to other disciplines within the Police service on how to do it.. When something goes really right or really wrong in one unit, the others hear about it very quickly. Sometimes within minutes!
tigerfish
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Tiger, may I ask how many units with civilians as observers you have worked on, or indeed maybe you still do, I am interested in the conclusions you have come to. I would have thought that contracts and terms and conditions could be written in such a way as to have a flexible work force. And is the aircraft not a command and control asset and video evidence gatherer as opposed to a tool for criminal investigations. Just a thought.
Tigerfish - I know that you have a great deal of experience and your posts are often enlightening and thought provoking but, in this case, you sum it all up for yourself in your first six words "In my case, No hard evidence" and then you follow with assumptions.
I'm not saying that civilianisation is the way ahead or anything of that nature; I'm just interested by the fact that all of the supposed expertise in just how good civilians are in the role seems to come from people who have no experience of it.
As for "nose"; please, do get real, it is not some spidey sense handed out by dame fortune to the lucky few. It is actually just what you alluded to, police experience, and you don't need to have any particular form of employment contract or hold a particular office in order to accumulate that.
Civilianisation, over the life of one observer, probably saves some money but not necessarily enough to make it particularly attractive and police experience is a vital asset in the aircraft, absolutely no doubt about that but let's not muddy the argument by talking about a lack of flexibility which no-one has any evidence of or talk of some mythical "copper's nose" which is little more than experience and a reasonable level of general intelligence.
I'm not saying that civilianisation is the way ahead or anything of that nature; I'm just interested by the fact that all of the supposed expertise in just how good civilians are in the role seems to come from people who have no experience of it.
As for "nose"; please, do get real, it is not some spidey sense handed out by dame fortune to the lucky few. It is actually just what you alluded to, police experience, and you don't need to have any particular form of employment contract or hold a particular office in order to accumulate that.
Civilianisation, over the life of one observer, probably saves some money but not necessarily enough to make it particularly attractive and police experience is a vital asset in the aircraft, absolutely no doubt about that but let's not muddy the argument by talking about a lack of flexibility which no-one has any evidence of or talk of some mythical "copper's nose" which is little more than experience and a reasonable level of general intelligence.
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Regardless of potential, being a police officer and getting experience on the ground about behaviours of people is invaluable. It is not policemens nose, its policemens senses, weighing up circumstances, anticipating etc.
I have no doubt a civilian could be trained up to and be a good observer, but it would take time to gain the experience the plod already has, so in the value for money stakes, quicker return on investment, your average plod would have some advantage in the short and medium term.
If you think of the control room where many civilians do expert work, it is proof that potential of either plod or civvy is there for the taking, but what is true is a new civvy is not as "considered" as a plod taking the role, he only has to learn the kit and computers, the "behaviours" needs of others etc has already been learned and the fledgling civvy will get a hard learning curve from bobby on the beat, I can tell you that with conviction!
However, back to the thread, I had not realised the numbers of aircraft were actually as low as they are that but it does not surprise me and that they are getting lower makes it a pretty narrow career path, secondary to the prime role I guess.
And for the record, yes its good when you get it (wind, rain, sunlight, fuel, scary dark patches, slight cloud, full moon often avoiding attendance when asked!! :-)), but speaking as one directed into a pile of horse crap whilst searching one night, the dog is cheaper but not as fast in a pursuit!!!
Gaz
I have no doubt a civilian could be trained up to and be a good observer, but it would take time to gain the experience the plod already has, so in the value for money stakes, quicker return on investment, your average plod would have some advantage in the short and medium term.
If you think of the control room where many civilians do expert work, it is proof that potential of either plod or civvy is there for the taking, but what is true is a new civvy is not as "considered" as a plod taking the role, he only has to learn the kit and computers, the "behaviours" needs of others etc has already been learned and the fledgling civvy will get a hard learning curve from bobby on the beat, I can tell you that with conviction!
However, back to the thread, I had not realised the numbers of aircraft were actually as low as they are that but it does not surprise me and that they are getting lower makes it a pretty narrow career path, secondary to the prime role I guess.
And for the record, yes its good when you get it (wind, rain, sunlight, fuel, scary dark patches, slight cloud, full moon often avoiding attendance when asked!! :-)), but speaking as one directed into a pile of horse crap whilst searching one night, the dog is cheaper but not as fast in a pursuit!!!
Gaz
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Several forces have tried using civilian observers, but none have found the argument so cost effective that they have shouted it from the rooftops.
For me the issues are more about cost & control. For costs I can not recall how much civvy observers were getting paid and ancillary costs such as expenses and pensions. So will not comment on that part.
But with a PC you have more control over them. If you compare police regs with those of civil staff, you can get more use out of the PC. It is far easier to redeploy a PC or if they become 'lazy/incompetent/unable''. The threat of getting their beat duty helmet permanently reissued back to them can focus some minds back on the job. It is far easier to cancel leave, rest days and enforce overtime on PC's than civil staff.
There are also the few occasions when you get down and hands on. This is down to warranted officers and is a handy tool in the armory if needed. Although in the past there has been various musings about making them specials or pcso's.
Of course last of all, PC's can not strike unlike civil staff. Most I have come across probably would not. However if they were in the majority and more militant peer pressure. Then it may be a different story.
DFD,JAFO,Gazzer & SSS.
Wow that really did spark some life into it! In answer to the first question NO! I have not served on a unit that employed support staff in an observer role, but since retiring from the service in 1999, I did visit a number that did. I retain my assertion that there are no clear financial or operational reasons to do so.
As I said the Police Air Observer is a vital member of the team that delivers Police Air support to the force and to the public at large. I would suggest that one vital aspect of that role (If you will forgive the pun) is to keep their feet on the ground. To remember that their first and last duty is to discharge their role as a police officer, - that is why they are there!
Yes I know, there are other duties, gathering evidence, photography crime prevention, radio communication etc etc. all of which are adequately performed today by support staff ( Civilians ). But how many of them do ALL of those roles, often constantly required to swap between many of them all in one mission?
The Police Officer is different too in one other important aspect from the civilian. As has already been said, if they have lost the edge, or become stale, it is very easy to post them back to ordinary duty quite quickly, in order to regain their streetwise experience before hopefully coming back. Indeed some units due that routinely to preserve the keen edge.
Yes I focussed on "Thief taking" and I do appreciate that there is more to it than that. But remember Guys you are welcomed and appreciated by the general public not because you are good at taking pictures or gathering photographic evidence, but because they belive you are good at catching criminals or detering them from committing crime. In short you make them feel safe.
Sorry about the "Nose" comment too, but real cops will understand.
It all over for me now. I accept that,I am now 66 but age will never stop me from saying what I believe in, or what once made us the best. Days sadly Gone!
tigerfish
Wow that really did spark some life into it! In answer to the first question NO! I have not served on a unit that employed support staff in an observer role, but since retiring from the service in 1999, I did visit a number that did. I retain my assertion that there are no clear financial or operational reasons to do so.
As I said the Police Air Observer is a vital member of the team that delivers Police Air support to the force and to the public at large. I would suggest that one vital aspect of that role (If you will forgive the pun) is to keep their feet on the ground. To remember that their first and last duty is to discharge their role as a police officer, - that is why they are there!
Yes I know, there are other duties, gathering evidence, photography crime prevention, radio communication etc etc. all of which are adequately performed today by support staff ( Civilians ). But how many of them do ALL of those roles, often constantly required to swap between many of them all in one mission?
The Police Officer is different too in one other important aspect from the civilian. As has already been said, if they have lost the edge, or become stale, it is very easy to post them back to ordinary duty quite quickly, in order to regain their streetwise experience before hopefully coming back. Indeed some units due that routinely to preserve the keen edge.
Yes I focussed on "Thief taking" and I do appreciate that there is more to it than that. But remember Guys you are welcomed and appreciated by the general public not because you are good at taking pictures or gathering photographic evidence, but because they belive you are good at catching criminals or detering them from committing crime. In short you make them feel safe.
Sorry about the "Nose" comment too, but real cops will understand.
It all over for me now. I accept that,I am now 66 but age will never stop me from saying what I believe in, or what once made us the best. Days sadly Gone!
tigerfish
Last edited by tigerfish; 5th Dec 2011 at 14:08.
So where are you?
This log suddenly died!
Are all the observers and pilots so worried about their future, now that NPAS is in command?
I guess that once upon a time I might have been too, but now I just hate any shade of political correctness. - It has the potential to bring a great country/service down!
tigerfish
Are all the observers and pilots so worried about their future, now that NPAS is in command?
I guess that once upon a time I might have been too, but now I just hate any shade of political correctness. - It has the potential to bring a great country/service down!
tigerfish
Perhaps this topic has just been talked to death and just doesn't matter that much - coppers are out there doing good jobs, civvies are out there doing good jobs. Us bumping our gums about it doesn't change that and those who think that civvies could never do the job won't change their minds due to the introduction of subversive tactics like facts and evidence, so why bother?
It's only a debate if there's a chance of altering perceptions, if it's just a case of two diametrically opposed beliefs shouting at each other it's all rather pointless.
It's only a debate if there's a chance of altering perceptions, if it's just a case of two diametrically opposed beliefs shouting at each other it's all rather pointless.
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When I was in that world I met a captain from the French Gendarmerie formations aerial (I still have the key ring) at a conference they hosted. They take cops onto the unit as an observer and also some maintenance (up to being able to do 50 hour checks?).
After about 18 months of that they get sent on a flying course. How cool is that? They normally fly in pairs with one as pilot and one operating the role equipment.
And before the guy I met went on the air wing he had a six-month tour guarding the bases on Tahiti. I knew I should have paid more attention in French lessons at school...
After about 18 months of that they get sent on a flying course. How cool is that? They normally fly in pairs with one as pilot and one operating the role equipment.
And before the guy I met went on the air wing he had a six-month tour guarding the bases on Tahiti. I knew I should have paid more attention in French lessons at school...
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The americans do something similar..........the problem is it costs and has the chance of a failure rate during training, why adopt such a system in the UK when there's a 'free' source of experienced pilots from the military who require no training at all?