Yobs throw rocks at air ambulance
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give me strength
my arguments are not excuses for their behaviour. yes, they broke the law and it was wrong.
what i am trying to do is explain how these young people end up with these patterns of behaviour.
by the way: yes, i do fly professionally for a living
if we follow a tabloid agenda and just "string 'em up" then that will solve absolutely nothing. it will not improve our society and it will not deter them, or others, from behaviour like that. we need to understand the root causes and address them
we need to ask ourselves "how do these people end up doing things like that?". the answer of "they are bad, we should string em up, it's the bleeding heart liberals fault etc" is a lazy knee jerk simplified answer which solves absolutely nothing.
look at our prison population (highest in europe per capita). sending a 15 year old to prison just starts them off on a path of crime and they will get stuck in the endless cycle of the criminal justice system. hence, more crime, more victims, more cost to the state.
what i am trying to do is explain how these young people end up with these patterns of behaviour.
by the way: yes, i do fly professionally for a living
if we follow a tabloid agenda and just "string 'em up" then that will solve absolutely nothing. it will not improve our society and it will not deter them, or others, from behaviour like that. we need to understand the root causes and address them
we need to ask ourselves "how do these people end up doing things like that?". the answer of "they are bad, we should string em up, it's the bleeding heart liberals fault etc" is a lazy knee jerk simplified answer which solves absolutely nothing.
look at our prison population (highest in europe per capita). sending a 15 year old to prison just starts them off on a path of crime and they will get stuck in the endless cycle of the criminal justice system. hence, more crime, more victims, more cost to the state.
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Well now thecontroller, as it seems to be mostly me with whom you are arguing and are using the “hang ‘em high” argument against me whereas I have specifically said that I do not agree with it, I shall repeat myself.
You have not said anything new – in fact Crab@SAAvn summed it up nicely. There is no point NOW trying to understand HOW this situation has arisen in society; we know how it’s arisen – it’s a matter of what can be done to “cure” it. I’m still awaiting your suggestions.
Cheers
Whirls
You have not said anything new – in fact Crab@SAAvn summed it up nicely. There is no point NOW trying to understand HOW this situation has arisen in society; we know how it’s arisen – it’s a matter of what can be done to “cure” it. I’m still awaiting your suggestions.
Cheers
Whirls
I agree with a lot of the anger and frustration in this thread. The thing I don't fathom is the popular truth that do-gooders are somehow the cause (by driving unbalanced human rights in the favour of the badly behaved) or obstructing change (by opposing more robust interventions).
Do these popular truths really bear up?
Haven’t the First World War (mass shared experience of ineptitude and inhumanity by leaders) and the coincidence of anti-ruling class Marxist theology been identified as significant factors in the erosion of deference in UK society? Legacy effects amongst unsuccessful families seem at least as likely as an outbreak of “inappropriate” human rights.
The other idea that do-gooders are somehow obstructing a good solid response, because they advocate inappropriate namby-pamby responses is also odd. Who are these people? Social workers, probations officers, teachers, community workers? Can't say I recognise any reality to this popular idea. I have, however, seen a lot of good work done by individuals in the most pressing of circumstances and with very little in the way of resources. But how would anybody ever know this when popular media and opinion generically disparages such work? I dread to think how bad things would/will be without it.
Whirly, your point about there being no necessary connection between poverty and criminality is a good one. It makes me wonder if your area is in better shape socially if not financially; perhaps a stronger community structure and higher levels of life competencies are still in place? Poverty is about much more than money. I’m not so sure about your confidence in the end delivery of health and education as part of an essentially fair Britain though. There are grave problems in many parts of the UK and that post WWII shared sense of nation is gone. Throwing rocks at air ambulances and fire engines is not one-off behaviour but occurs quite often throughout parts of the UK. This isn’t so in most other northern European nations, and they have broadly the same judicial processes, human rights and don’t have corporal punishment (as either a deterrent or cure). Why is Britain different?
Before I'm mistaken as a liberal: I think kids who throw rocks at helis, fire engines etc should be punished significantly and promptly... At the same time, I think changing such behavioural problems - as opposed to punishing their expression - is a broader sociological question. The level of public debate and a haste to satisfy justifiable anger does not begin to reflect the scale of the problems at hand. But I am glad the moderators have so far allowed it to be thrashed out here. And that most people have managed to avoid being rude about issues that make us all hot under the collar.
TT
Do these popular truths really bear up?
Haven’t the First World War (mass shared experience of ineptitude and inhumanity by leaders) and the coincidence of anti-ruling class Marxist theology been identified as significant factors in the erosion of deference in UK society? Legacy effects amongst unsuccessful families seem at least as likely as an outbreak of “inappropriate” human rights.
The other idea that do-gooders are somehow obstructing a good solid response, because they advocate inappropriate namby-pamby responses is also odd. Who are these people? Social workers, probations officers, teachers, community workers? Can't say I recognise any reality to this popular idea. I have, however, seen a lot of good work done by individuals in the most pressing of circumstances and with very little in the way of resources. But how would anybody ever know this when popular media and opinion generically disparages such work? I dread to think how bad things would/will be without it.
Whirly, your point about there being no necessary connection between poverty and criminality is a good one. It makes me wonder if your area is in better shape socially if not financially; perhaps a stronger community structure and higher levels of life competencies are still in place? Poverty is about much more than money. I’m not so sure about your confidence in the end delivery of health and education as part of an essentially fair Britain though. There are grave problems in many parts of the UK and that post WWII shared sense of nation is gone. Throwing rocks at air ambulances and fire engines is not one-off behaviour but occurs quite often throughout parts of the UK. This isn’t so in most other northern European nations, and they have broadly the same judicial processes, human rights and don’t have corporal punishment (as either a deterrent or cure). Why is Britain different?
Before I'm mistaken as a liberal: I think kids who throw rocks at helis, fire engines etc should be punished significantly and promptly... At the same time, I think changing such behavioural problems - as opposed to punishing their expression - is a broader sociological question. The level of public debate and a haste to satisfy justifiable anger does not begin to reflect the scale of the problems at hand. But I am glad the moderators have so far allowed it to be thrashed out here. And that most people have managed to avoid being rude about issues that make us all hot under the collar.
TT
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i'm not arguing with you, just the general "hang em and flog em" mentality on this thread
the solution? mmm.. well thats the $64,000 question. it's not easy. and it's not going to happpen overnight. thats why politicans prefer "quick" "popular" fixes which make them appear "tough on crime" for the duration of their term in office. but the underlying causes still exist
some solutions maybe:
- a less "me me me" consumerist society (a tough one!)
- curbing the UK's habit of binge-drinking
- more discipline in the home/school
- parents taking more resposibility
- dont have kids unless you can provide a stable family environment to them and can afford to raise them
- more things for kids to do (ie not hanging around)
- more exercise for young people, less TV/video games
- curbing the increased sexualisation of society (adverts, tv, magazines etc)
- increased access to decent housing, healthcare, job opportunites, re-training for poorer areas (look at the ex-mining pit towns, once prowd communities decimated by the loss of the coal industry, no hope for the young generation, increased drug/alcohol abuse)
- less teenage pregnancies. young women need to validate their lives in other ways, they need hope and opportunity
- we need to build more "communities", ie not towns where everyone drives to Tesco, commutes 50 miles to their job, watches big brother, yet doesnt know their neighbors name
- we need to find a way to make society less polarised between the haves and the have-nots. go to most towns in the UK and you will find huge £300,000 houses within a few miles of crappy sink estates
the solution? mmm.. well thats the $64,000 question. it's not easy. and it's not going to happpen overnight. thats why politicans prefer "quick" "popular" fixes which make them appear "tough on crime" for the duration of their term in office. but the underlying causes still exist
some solutions maybe:
- a less "me me me" consumerist society (a tough one!)
- curbing the UK's habit of binge-drinking
- more discipline in the home/school
- parents taking more resposibility
- dont have kids unless you can provide a stable family environment to them and can afford to raise them
- more things for kids to do (ie not hanging around)
- more exercise for young people, less TV/video games
- curbing the increased sexualisation of society (adverts, tv, magazines etc)
- increased access to decent housing, healthcare, job opportunites, re-training for poorer areas (look at the ex-mining pit towns, once prowd communities decimated by the loss of the coal industry, no hope for the young generation, increased drug/alcohol abuse)
- less teenage pregnancies. young women need to validate their lives in other ways, they need hope and opportunity
- we need to build more "communities", ie not towns where everyone drives to Tesco, commutes 50 miles to their job, watches big brother, yet doesnt know their neighbors name
- we need to find a way to make society less polarised between the haves and the have-nots. go to most towns in the UK and you will find huge £300,000 houses within a few miles of crappy sink estates
It isn't the fact that do-gooders do good, it is that many don't know where to stop - there has been a growing belief since the 60's that humankind is essentially good and allowing all individuals to grow unfettered by the rules and regulations of society will somehow produce a world full of happy, smiley, fulfilled and peaceloving people.
However, you don't need to go far off the beaten track to realise that civilisation is a thin veneer and that, left to our own devices, we rapidly degenerate into a Darwinian 'strongest survive' which doesn't encompass 'most intelligent, caring and compasionate survive'.
Education should help us rationalise our way out of the jungle but money and sex repeatedly blur our moral direction - look how many businessmen fight their way to the top, realise that money can't buy you happiness and then give it all away to charity to salve their conscience.
Like Ghengis, I am a student of martial arts and whilst it may not be everyones cup of tea, it does teach young people respect, both for themselves and for others. I am not proclaiming it as a solution to our yob problem but anything that helps must be a good thing.
There are many people doing excellent work to help the truly disadvantaged but so much of this effort is wasted on those who just can't be bothered to help themselves and see the State as an easy meal ticket.
As with all of life, there is no 'one size fits all' solution, especially since the problem was not caused by one event but has been growing steadily, fuelled by successive governments pandering to the 'quick fix' vote-winning headline answer rather than tackling the root of the problem (often the poor example set by the governments themselves).
Human rights are important but they need the wisdom of Solomon to be applied appropriately to prevent the opportunist taking advantage by hiding behind clumsy legislation. If only we had a Ministry for Common Sense we might have some chance of redressing the lunatic decisions handed out by courts who are too obsessed with the legal process to see the damage they do to society.
However, you don't need to go far off the beaten track to realise that civilisation is a thin veneer and that, left to our own devices, we rapidly degenerate into a Darwinian 'strongest survive' which doesn't encompass 'most intelligent, caring and compasionate survive'.
Education should help us rationalise our way out of the jungle but money and sex repeatedly blur our moral direction - look how many businessmen fight their way to the top, realise that money can't buy you happiness and then give it all away to charity to salve their conscience.
Like Ghengis, I am a student of martial arts and whilst it may not be everyones cup of tea, it does teach young people respect, both for themselves and for others. I am not proclaiming it as a solution to our yob problem but anything that helps must be a good thing.
There are many people doing excellent work to help the truly disadvantaged but so much of this effort is wasted on those who just can't be bothered to help themselves and see the State as an easy meal ticket.
As with all of life, there is no 'one size fits all' solution, especially since the problem was not caused by one event but has been growing steadily, fuelled by successive governments pandering to the 'quick fix' vote-winning headline answer rather than tackling the root of the problem (often the poor example set by the governments themselves).
Human rights are important but they need the wisdom of Solomon to be applied appropriately to prevent the opportunist taking advantage by hiding behind clumsy legislation. If only we had a Ministry for Common Sense we might have some chance of redressing the lunatic decisions handed out by courts who are too obsessed with the legal process to see the damage they do to society.
