rotorboy

All the time. Often as a utility / bush pilot you have to fuel yourself, load yourself, hook up a load or simply take a piss.. shutting down costs you time

The FAR in the US reads similar to the one John quoted. It implies the pilot must have control of the helicopter. I still have control of the machine when I am fueling...

rb

ems300

all the time.
what is the point of shutting down just so you can get out and make yellow snow!!!
getting out with the machine going is done alot here, either to load people, re fuel, all of our flights we leave the machine for about 10 minutes! sometimes longer if the front seat is occupied by a hottie!!!

ppheli

Some years ago, a HeliPortugal pilot landed his MD500E, switched off and let the rotors run down of their own accord, presumably rotor brake not available/used. As he departed the helicopter, the weight change and the remaining inertia in the blades allowed the helicopter to take off again on its own, rising some way (dunno height, sorry) before coming back down by gravity and at an angle that meant the aircraft was a write-off. I bet he ran fast when he saw what was happening....

Perhaps the first UV helicopter crash?

Rotorchick

ZK-HFG, Eurocopter EC 120 B, 15 Apr 03 at 13:00,
Donne Glacier. 0 POB, injuries nil, damage
substantial. Nature of flight, transport passenger A
to A. Pilot CAA licence CPL (Helicopter), age 42
yrs, flying hours 7950 total, 12 on type, 122 in last
90 days.

The pilot and two passengers were on a “Milford Experience” flight, which included a lunch stop, glacier landing, beach landing and a landing at Milford. The normal glacier landing site was on the Tutuko Plateau, but because of cloud and wind conditions, an alternate site on the Donne Glacier was used.
The helicopter was landed on a rock outcrop on the south side of the glacier; power was reduced to ground idle, and cyclic and collective locks were applied. The pilot disembarked the passengers and was escorting them to the left front when the machine yawed to the right in a nose-high attitude before toppling over the side of the outcrop.
The pilot reported that it had been parked into the 10 to 15 knot wind, with the left skid firmly on the ground, and the rear only of the right skid likewise.

bellfest

rotorboy
You're a brave man admitting to that

John
I believe to the letter of the law here in Aus that doesn't include friction locks, bit of a grey area that one if you can believe that!

There is countless events of R22's taking aviation into their own hands with pilots forgetting to put the bunjy over the collective. Some very interesting stories there.

It amazes me that you can't get out of a machine on fixed floats. They do have a bit of give and the machine wobbles around a bit but for that very reason it is probably the most stable platform you could have.
Does that include fixed floats where the skid gear is in contact with the ground ie R44, H500?

ShyTorque

A little over ten years ago, at a NZ regional airport, I watched in disbelief as a middle-aged pilot left his Squirrel running on the grass, adjacent to a gate as he disembarked two pax plus luggage. I thought that was quite risky in itself, however he then carried the luggage through the gate next to the busy public car park, leaving it open, walked past my car, across to the terminal building and followed his pax inside.

After about ten minutes of his absence my son began began videoing the aircraft. After another five minutes I decided I didin't want to keep my family in the firing line if the rotor disc hit the tail boom (it was quite a gusty day) so I moved the car further away.

The pilot didn't return for about fifteen minutes. He then jumped in, threw the throttle forward and immmediately lifted to the hover, turning left and back as he did so, narrowly missing another helicopter hover taxying behind him.

I've always wondered if he got his Darwin Award... that year 10% of all NZ's civvy registered helicopters came to grief.

800

Some points to consider with reference to Australian document CAO 95.7

1. There has always been different views on the actual meaning of "locking" the cyclic and collective controls. What does the "locking" mean when talking about which devices do what and what was the original intention by the author?

2. Also the term "essential" when in the context of "essential to the safety of the helicopter or of the persons.
Some CASA FOI's deem refueling by the pilot with the rotors running not to be essential. As is to say it is an operational convience to not shutdown and not an essential requirement when put in context.

3. The definition of "immediate vicinity" when read in the context. What dimensions does this include?

Ask 10 CASA FOI's (if you can find them) the questions & you'll get 10 different opinions!
And then you'll walk away more confused!

800

oldbeefer

Did hear a story years ago concerning a pilot of a Bell47 in Cyprus. Landed somewhere on Troodos, left it running and wandered off down the hill for some reason. Bell47 slid off the side of hill - this was seen by another sqn aircraft that was flying by. He landed and went to see what had happened to first aircraft. First pilot comes back up the hill, climbs in to rotors turning Bell 47 and flies back to base. Somewhat puzzled to find he was in a different aircraft. Perhaps some aging ex AAC pilot can confirm true or just a load of bo@@ocks!

robsrich

A recent ATSB report stated that from Jan 2000 to Jun 2005 - (that is five and a half years) there were 190 helicopter accidents from our say, 1,000 helicopters at that time.

Of the 190 lost, 90 were R22 and 10 R44.

One accident every ten days!

Four of the Robinson R22 fleet decided to go flying by themselves and leave the very unamused pilot pondering his next job!

From memory there may have been a couple of turbines - not sure until I re-look at the data.

I suspect it was worse in the preceding five years.

Trouble is; these are avoidable; and we all pay by extra premiums on the insurance policy.

This is passed onto the grumpy client who will probably use a truck if one could do the job?

Any ideas how we can stop this happening.

Any tips or observations?

JimL

If as the IHST have stated, they want to reduced the accident rate by 80% in the next 10 years, they might want do a psychological study of the mindset of pilots who use this practice.

There are accidents due to this and we have all seen them over the years but, more importantly, it points to an attitude of mind which we might have to consider when attempting to reduce the accident rate to the extent stated above.

It is no coincidence that this practice is deemed unacceptable in ICAO Annex 6 and other more responsible regulations.

Jim

Bravo73

Oldbeefer,

I've also heard the same story/urban myth concerning some foreign military students (Saudis or Algerians, not sure) flying out of CSE in Oxford some years ago. Even if it's not true, it makes a darn good yarn!

bellfest

I know of a 3B1 that ran for at least 30 minutes outside the Aero club in Darwin while it's driver was savouring the schooners that much that he completely forgot about it till he was tapped on the shoulder . This was the same man that ignored a refusal of clearance for reasons he was more than happy to let the tower and all other traffic know.
"My wife has just left me for another woman so I'm comin in whether you like it or not"

BigMike

"If as the IHST have stated, they want to reduced the accident rate by 80% in the next 10 years, they might want do a psychological study of the mindset of pilots who use this practice.

There are accidents due to this and we have all seen them over the years but, more importantly, it points to an attitude of mind which we might have to consider when attempting to reduce the accident rate to the extent stated above.

It is no coincidence that this practice is deemed unacceptable in ICAO Annex 6 and other more responsible regulations."

Have you ever done bush flying Jim? Been in the middle of the desert by yourself re-fueling out of drums with the nearest settlement 300kms away? I can give you plenty more examples where I would not be at the controls.
Do in in strong winds, or for an extented period of time, no. It depends on the situation, and the location.
Helicopters do not fly away by themselves for no reason.

rotorboy

BellFest,

Why is that brave when the proceudre is covered in the companys approved oeprating manual? Like BM said, ever been somewhere hunderds of KM from nowhere, where shutting down the helicopter wasnt the smartest idea. I can come up with a lot of reason why not to do it.

And I agree helicopters do not fly away by themselves. I find it hard to believe at ground idle, with frictions locked a machine will get off the ground.

rb

JimL

BigMike,

I have a little experience and have engaged in this practice myself (both in the military and as a civilian). My opposition to it stems from an incident that almost resulted in an accident some years ago - I learnt from that experience.

Apart from convenience, is there any reason why the engine would not be shut down for any of these activities? It is unlikely that any risk assessment (really the point I was attempting to make) would see this as an acceptable practice.

And yes, helicopters do 'fly away' on their own - or more accurately, crash whilst not under control.

Jim

Cyclic Hotline

Jim, can you provide the information that is contained in ICAO Annexe 6.

This contribution to aviation safety is not available for free on the Internet, which surely totally negates any potential safety benefit that might be derived from writing it in the first place.

I have never understood how inaccessible laws, rules or advisory information could have the slightest benefit, if they are not freely available to the people that might actually benefit from the information they contain. Maybe they all get together at cocktail parties and congratulate one another on their contribution to aviation safety?

(This comment is not directed at JimL, but is one of the things that really pisses me off!)

topendtorque

Bellfest
As I recall I heard that the A/C FSU comm went like this – “Darwin Darwin X Y Z, POB’s1, currently cruising 500 agl at xxxx request track direct Darwin.”

Now this is back in the days when there were radio men in the flight service unit outposts such as Darwin who were as well known and respected for their idiosynchrosies as were the pilots.

It’s Sunday afternoon and the FSU operator who knows said driver very well is out for some mischief to break the boredom. The reply came back, “why should I give you a track direct?”

‘Because I’ve been out bush for ten days without a beer and my wife’s left me for another woman!’

“X Y Z from current position - Darwin – track - DIRECT!”

The beer quaffing yes, often, said gentlemen was reported to move on to Tasmania and open a pushbyke shop just as Tassie passed legislation for pushbyke drivers to all wear helmets. Reckoned he was going to make a killing!!!!??

And a sober thought to wipe the grin off everyones face, his successor one day, his last day on this planet, left another 3B1 with the cyclic not frictioned but with hyd-off. Even if frictioned with hyd-off the feed back forces because of hyd-off are usually in excess of friction capacity in the bell 47.

He had his helmet on and whilst walking toward his near side litter with a coil of barb wire, about 40 kg’s, didn’t hear the whop until too late!

Always leave hyd-on and friction properly.

ShyTorque

Unfortunately, helicopters don't even have to get airborne to cause a major accident to either the crew, the passengers or other bystanders. All it takes is a gust of wind to cause the rotor to flap and it's P45 time or hospital for someone at best.

Only if it was a choice between the aircraft not starting in a survival situation and there was no other option might I even consider it. As for planning to refuel AVGAS whilst running and unmanned - forget it, life is short enough as it is! I've always wondered what the actions should be if someone is foolish enough to attempt that and there is a fire........run, walk away thinking about the next employment, or stay inside the rotor disc, risking severe injury, death or burns and try to fight the fire and/or shut down the aircraft.....then think about the next employment

JimL

I totally agree with you that all important documents should be accessible.

The Rotordog

Shy Torque notes: "Unfortunately, helicopters don't even have to get airborne to cause a major accident to either the crew, the passengers or other bystanders. All it takes is a gust of wind to cause the rotor to flap and it's P45 time or hospital for someone at best."

Not sure what types of ships you've been flying, Shy, but in 25 years and 10,000 hours I have never...as in *NEVER* had to grab the controls of my idling helicopter to keep the blades from doing something weird. I've flown offshore on days so windy that it makes Robbie pilots duck inside bomb shelters. In a previous life, I've been in a teeny 206 and had S-58's land next to me. The helicopter might have skidded a little about the yaw axis, but the blades never went anywhere but 'round and 'round.

But we're a paranoid bunch, aren't we! Even knowing that the rotor isn't going anywhere as long as the cyclic is immobilized, we still believe that as soon as we get out it's going to start dancing like a chick in a long dress at a Grateful Dead/Phish concert. Odd. Because the only way the disk is going to move is if the cyclic moves!

Getting out is not inherently dangerous if the necessary precautions are taken. But I will admit that it just "feels" strange to have a running helicopter and not be in it.

Okay mates, a challenge: Has *anyone* ever experienced a rotor excursion where you had to grab the controls and actually *do* something (other than hold on tight) with the cyclic? And I'm talking about when the helicopter was running at idle, not coasting down or spooling up.