Leaving helicopter with engine/rotors running - merged threads
Gatvol
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You betcha, Friction or Force trim is the Answer in Bell Products. Try that without one or the other and the Cyclic falls over like a Limp D
K. So does the Aircraft.
K. So does the Aircraft.
Skycop:
You can bet your backside that the kiwi you saw was being paid by the Hobbs hour, so he was earning money while he was in the terminal. Seen it happen on bushfire ops, one operator left his bird running unoccupied for 45 minutes while he sat in the shade having his lunch.
You can bet your backside that the kiwi you saw was being paid by the Hobbs hour, so he was earning money while he was in the terminal. Seen it happen on bushfire ops, one operator left his bird running unoccupied for 45 minutes while he sat in the shade having his lunch.
Hi all,
During a Shell audit, we got a remark cause the FP took his hand off the cyclic for a few seconds during SD on a 365 N2. I let you imagine the commotion had the guy left the A/C unmanned with rotor turning.
Has any of you ever seen or heard of engineers, specifically trained, performing a ground run on their own ? Any reference doc. , idea/comment ?
Cheers
ATN
During a Shell audit, we got a remark cause the FP took his hand off the cyclic for a few seconds during SD on a 365 N2. I let you imagine the commotion had the guy left the A/C unmanned with rotor turning.
Has any of you ever seen or heard of engineers, specifically trained, performing a ground run on their own ? Any reference doc. , idea/comment ?
Cheers
ATN
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Under Australian Law.......
Whilst we pilots enjoy a vast amount of flexibility, and can normally justify what we do is lawful and beyond attack by CASA or some legal challenger!!!
The defence of doing it this way for years, or my battery is weak, or the cycle count is to high is no defence at all.
I have just fought this one out with CASA [and lost]....and with "Strict Liability Penalties" applicable...[CAR 225[3], I don't ever want to fight this cause in a court.
The following rules apply:
CAR 225 [1]....The PIC must ensure that one [1] pilot is at the controls from rotors start to rotors stop.
However:
CAO 95.7....Exemption from General Requirement for pilot to be at the controls.
CAO 95.7.1....Allows you to exercise 95.7.2, regardless of CAR 225 [1] and CAR 230 [2], but not CAR 225 [2]
CAO 95.7.2…Does not permit the pilot to leave the controls, unless:
1]…The helicopter is equipped with skids.
2]…The collective and cyclic controls can be locked.
3]…If a passenger is onboard, then they can’t reach the controls.
4]…The pilot considers his/her absence is require based on safety of passengers or persons on the ground.
5]…The pilot remains in the vicinity of the helicopter.
Now the bad news:
CAO 95.7.2
1]...This immediately excludes all wheeled helicopters…..great!
2]...This excludes another bunch…AS350 and B206 series, as these aircraft only have frictions, NOT locks [AS350 collective lock accepted, but not the cyclic friction]….the legality here is locks verses frictions. [The S76 fails both 1 and 2]
3]…Passengers onboard…OK
4]…We tend to use this safety clause to cover most vague or fringe legalities…in this case it won’t stand up in court [or so the CASA lawyers say] unless there is real danger to someone.
The action of protecting offloading passengers does not hold water, as you could have shut down. Fouled wires/slinging equipment falls into the same barrel, as does refueling in the bush. [Don’t yell at me over this one, it’s a legal interpretation]…and as I said with Strict Liability applying, its going to end you up in some very hot and expensive water.
5]…The pilot to remain in the vicinity…OK.
The debriefing I had regarding this exercise was that the industry has been doing all sorts of things for years and years, and most of that activity makes perfect sense, however it may not be legal if tested.
The defence of doing it this way for years, or my battery is weak, or the cycle count is to high is no defence at all.
I have just fought this one out with CASA [and lost]....and with "Strict Liability Penalties" applicable...[CAR 225[3], I don't ever want to fight this cause in a court.
The following rules apply:
CAR 225 [1]....The PIC must ensure that one [1] pilot is at the controls from rotors start to rotors stop.
However:
CAO 95.7....Exemption from General Requirement for pilot to be at the controls.
CAO 95.7.1....Allows you to exercise 95.7.2, regardless of CAR 225 [1] and CAR 230 [2], but not CAR 225 [2]
CAO 95.7.2…Does not permit the pilot to leave the controls, unless:
1]…The helicopter is equipped with skids.
2]…The collective and cyclic controls can be locked.
3]…If a passenger is onboard, then they can’t reach the controls.
4]…The pilot considers his/her absence is require based on safety of passengers or persons on the ground.
5]…The pilot remains in the vicinity of the helicopter.
Now the bad news:
CAO 95.7.2
1]...This immediately excludes all wheeled helicopters…..great!
2]...This excludes another bunch…AS350 and B206 series, as these aircraft only have frictions, NOT locks [AS350 collective lock accepted, but not the cyclic friction]….the legality here is locks verses frictions. [The S76 fails both 1 and 2]
3]…Passengers onboard…OK
4]…We tend to use this safety clause to cover most vague or fringe legalities…in this case it won’t stand up in court [or so the CASA lawyers say] unless there is real danger to someone.
The action of protecting offloading passengers does not hold water, as you could have shut down. Fouled wires/slinging equipment falls into the same barrel, as does refueling in the bush. [Don’t yell at me over this one, it’s a legal interpretation]…and as I said with Strict Liability applying, its going to end you up in some very hot and expensive water.
5]…The pilot to remain in the vicinity…OK.
The debriefing I had regarding this exercise was that the industry has been doing all sorts of things for years and years, and most of that activity makes perfect sense, however it may not be legal if tested.
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Sorry guys and gals, just had to respond to this ridiculously long argument. I can tell from some of these comments that many of the people giving their opinions have no clue what the hell they are talking about, or at least have never been out in the real world.
Lets make it real simple:
If you're out in the bush, i.e. Alaska or it's equivalent and you are actually working for are living you will get out of your aircraft with the blades turning at some time or other. It's just the way it is. If you have to ask why then you haven't been in this business very long or all you've ever done is airport to airport.
Now on the other hand, if you really think that it's wise to get out of your SK76 with everything spinning to go and help your lazy assed client/passenger retrieve their bags then you are simply an idiot.
Come on now people, this is not rocket science. That's why they don't pay us rocket science wages and I see no solid booster rockets on my 500!
If I have offended any then I'm sorry, but leave the dead horse alone.
Aloha.
Lets make it real simple:
If you're out in the bush, i.e. Alaska or it's equivalent and you are actually working for are living you will get out of your aircraft with the blades turning at some time or other. It's just the way it is. If you have to ask why then you haven't been in this business very long or all you've ever done is airport to airport.
Now on the other hand, if you really think that it's wise to get out of your SK76 with everything spinning to go and help your lazy assed client/passenger retrieve their bags then you are simply an idiot.
Come on now people, this is not rocket science. That's why they don't pay us rocket science wages and I see no solid booster rockets on my 500!
If I have offended any then I'm sorry, but leave the dead horse alone.
Aloha.
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Airwon---go get um!
What a great First Post, shutting down a very practical and worthwhile thread, without offering a grain of worthwhile information that can broaden the topic, or enlighten the folk trying to gain a snippet of knowledge from the subject.
Your not #1 reincarnated are you??
Your not #1 reincarnated are you??
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Mr or Ms. High Nr,
How many snippets of information do you need from nearly 50 posts? The job, aircraft, environment and circumstances dictate what needs to be or should be done. Do you really need specific examples?
No, I'm not #1 who ever that may be.
How many snippets of information do you need from nearly 50 posts? The job, aircraft, environment and circumstances dictate what needs to be or should be done. Do you really need specific examples?
No, I'm not #1 who ever that may be.
AirWon:
Some of us are still learning... please let me get a look in the "real world" from people working on it.
If it's boring for you ,just "click" on another thread.
Some of us are still learning... please let me get a look in the "real world" from people working on it.
If it's boring for you ,just "click" on another thread.
AirWon:
That may be me. It was an insult of sorts, because like you AirWon, I also fly in the real world, not some theoretical world like many of the apparent newbies, low-timers and pseudo-testpilots on this board.
And I'm right with you on getting out of a running ship; those who say it's horribly unsafe, those who haven't done it, or those who say it should never be done simply haven't flown very much.
But that's typical of this lot. The people who post here are an odd bunch. A guy flies such a shallow approach to a very noise-sensitive airport that a nearby farmer who feels threatened makes an angry gesture and these jokers take the pilot's erroneous description of the event as Truth Without Question then rush to his defense. A guy makes such a shallow approach to an off-airport landing site without evidently doing any sort of recon (high or low), nearly hits wires but chops off the tail of his Gazelle as he tries to avoid them (and then crashes, naturally) and these jokers defend him.
Although this board is supposed to be for professionals (the first "P" in PPRuNe), there really doesn't seem to be that many people posting here who are actually bonafide, working commercial pilots like you AirWon, and me.
Oh yeah, and their feathers get ruffled REALLY easily. Watch what you say here or the politeness police will come down on you like a ton o' bricks.
No, I'm not #1 who ever that may be.
And I'm right with you on getting out of a running ship; those who say it's horribly unsafe, those who haven't done it, or those who say it should never be done simply haven't flown very much.
But that's typical of this lot. The people who post here are an odd bunch. A guy flies such a shallow approach to a very noise-sensitive airport that a nearby farmer who feels threatened makes an angry gesture and these jokers take the pilot's erroneous description of the event as Truth Without Question then rush to his defense. A guy makes such a shallow approach to an off-airport landing site without evidently doing any sort of recon (high or low), nearly hits wires but chops off the tail of his Gazelle as he tries to avoid them (and then crashes, naturally) and these jokers defend him.
Although this board is supposed to be for professionals (the first "P" in PPRuNe), there really doesn't seem to be that many people posting here who are actually bonafide, working commercial pilots like you AirWon, and me.
Oh yeah, and their feathers get ruffled REALLY easily. Watch what you say here or the politeness police will come down on you like a ton o' bricks.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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HEEEEEeehehehe, now the thread gets better. 
Maybe I'm just a sh!t stirrer, but it always gets interesting when this sort of thing happens.
Maybe I'm just a sh!t stirrer, but it always gets interesting when this sort of thing happens.
Gawd damn you Pprune No 6.5
I've just changed the 'interest' aspect of my profile to reflect the fact that you had changed to a much more sensible chappie. Now you go back to showing your true colours ...again
Damn and blast now I've got to go back and change it again!!!!
Glad you're back on form though, I have to admit...having an ars**ole on the forum adds that little "soupcon" of anticipation to the threads
As for your buddy Air1...the longer you stay in the bush the better, methinks. The fact is that:
has nothing whatsoever to do with rules and insurance. Your type probably ignore the former and can't spell the latter 
I've just changed the 'interest' aspect of my profile to reflect the fact that you had changed to a much more sensible chappie. Now you go back to showing your true colours ...again
Damn and blast now I've got to go back and change it again!!!!
Glad you're back on form though, I have to admit...having an ars**ole on the forum adds that little "soupcon" of anticipation to the threads
As for your buddy Air1...the longer you stay in the bush the better, methinks. The fact is that:
If you're out in the bush, i.e. Alaska or it's equivalent and you are actually working for are living you will get out of your aircraft with the blades turning at some time or other. It's just the way it is.
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Well said TC
PPRUNE FAN#1 - For some strange reason, I thought that all those interested in helicopter aviation were invited to read and post on this forum, or am I no longer invited as PPL or student CPL?
And if this forum is so harsh and full of jokers - why do you label yourself as 'FAN#1?
Sorry every one - b!tch complete.
Personally, at the stage I am at - I prefer to stay in the aircraft until rotors are no longer turning.
PPRUNE FAN#1 - For some strange reason, I thought that all those interested in helicopter aviation were invited to read and post on this forum, or am I no longer invited as PPL or student CPL?
And if this forum is so harsh and full of jokers - why do you label yourself as 'FAN#1?
Sorry every one - b!tch complete.
Personally, at the stage I am at - I prefer to stay in the aircraft until rotors are no longer turning.
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Dear All,
Oh the irony! In my attempts to bury this horse I seem to simply have pissed it off.
What can I say to appease but also to enlighten?
But first I have to comment about those who post and feel the need to add those stupid little smily faces every damn paragraph. Please stop it or ask mummy to help you with your writing.
To the point, and I really hope that this puts the damn thing in cardiac arrest...
Sometimes, when there's no-one around to get hurt, and the practicalities of the job you are doing demand it, you will get out of your aircraft with everything still spinning and do one of (but not limited to) the following:
1. Take a leak
2. Fuel
3. Put a line on
4. Take a line off
5. Take another leak
6. Check a funny noise, leak, smell, vibration
7. Adjust a mirror
8. Assist a colleague
9. See if everything that was there when you got in, is still there.
And on and on and on.........
Now for those of you that post here and are simply interested in helicopters in same way that some folk are fascinated by trains then please let that be the end of it. For those that keep asking and are just learning then I hope that this clears it up a little. there are times when you can and times when you definitely should not. As far as the legalities are concerned, then that is a whole different ballgame. If you boys flying in Aus or NZ really have such anal regulations then I'm sorry to hear it. But those who do this for a living will know when to and when not to. It's all about experience and some things just cannot be flogged to death on a forum. Although we are doing a pretty good job with this one.
That's it. The horse is dead. I just punched it off from 2000'.
Aloha!!!
Oh the irony! In my attempts to bury this horse I seem to simply have pissed it off.
What can I say to appease but also to enlighten?
But first I have to comment about those who post and feel the need to add those stupid little smily faces every damn paragraph. Please stop it or ask mummy to help you with your writing.
To the point, and I really hope that this puts the damn thing in cardiac arrest...
Sometimes, when there's no-one around to get hurt, and the practicalities of the job you are doing demand it, you will get out of your aircraft with everything still spinning and do one of (but not limited to) the following:
1. Take a leak
2. Fuel
3. Put a line on
4. Take a line off
5. Take another leak
6. Check a funny noise, leak, smell, vibration
7. Adjust a mirror
8. Assist a colleague
9. See if everything that was there when you got in, is still there.
And on and on and on.........
Now for those of you that post here and are simply interested in helicopters in same way that some folk are fascinated by trains then please let that be the end of it. For those that keep asking and are just learning then I hope that this clears it up a little. there are times when you can and times when you definitely should not. As far as the legalities are concerned, then that is a whole different ballgame. If you boys flying in Aus or NZ really have such anal regulations then I'm sorry to hear it. But those who do this for a living will know when to and when not to. It's all about experience and some things just cannot be flogged to death on a forum. Although we are doing a pretty good job with this one.
That's it. The horse is dead. I just punched it off from 2000'.
Aloha!!!
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Airwon has mentioned it and Redwine has produced an excellent example. In Oz the CASA regs are incredibly anal. They are not written to help the industry, merely to give CASA something to hang someone by, should they need to.
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Dear Ms. Coupling,
I've just been re-reading the last few posts and came across the insult specifically addressed to me. I saw it the first time I read your post and let it go but seeing it again has got me a little pissed off.
You sad little chief pilot.
Go starch your flight suit and bull your little booties. Leave the real flying to us.
I've just been re-reading the last few posts and came across the insult specifically addressed to me. I saw it the first time I read your post and let it go but seeing it again has got me a little pissed off.
You sad little chief pilot.
Go starch your flight suit and bull your little booties. Leave the real flying to us.
Avoid imitations
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Airwon,
I think it's a bit rich that you join the forum and after ONE post expect to close down the thread.
On your third post you want to stop people using smilies, as provided by the owner of the bulletin board, just because you don't like it. And expect to have the last word on the thread?
On your fourth, you want one current member to hang up his boots on your say-so.
Well, I bet your colleagues look forward to a meaningful conversation on a nightstop with you.
(Smilie deliberately used here, especially as I've paid to join this forum.)
I think it's a bit rich that you join the forum and after ONE post expect to close down the thread.
On your third post you want to stop people using smilies, as provided by the owner of the bulletin board, just because you don't like it. And expect to have the last word on the thread?
On your fourth, you want one current member to hang up his boots on your say-so.
Well, I bet your colleagues look forward to a meaningful conversation on a nightstop with you.
(Smilie deliberately used here, especially as I've paid to join this forum.)
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Ms. Torque,
....but it's OK for someone to just insult me? I also didn't realise that there was a seniority list on this forum. Don't say anything that might upset people until you've paid your dues on this forum. Give me a break. Some of you professionals obviously have way too much free time.
Sorry, children but I'm bored. It seems that this should be the club 18-20 forum. Direct replies from grown ups who just might know what the hell they are talking about are not welcome.
Enjoy yourselves in the sandpit.
....but it's OK for someone to just insult me? I also didn't realise that there was a seniority list on this forum. Don't say anything that might upset people until you've paid your dues on this forum. Give me a break. Some of you professionals obviously have way too much free time.
Sorry, children but I'm bored. It seems that this should be the club 18-20 forum. Direct replies from grown ups who just might know what the hell they are talking about are not welcome.
Enjoy yourselves in the sandpit.
Avoid imitations
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Ms Airwon,
No, not really OK just to be insulted unless there's a good reason for it. But then, most folk don't just barge in cold to a new forum (or a room, or anywhere) and start laying down the law like you did. Perhaps that's what caused offence?
There's no seniority list here, just that most folks prefer a little common courtesy. Perhaps you thought you were at the top of the seniority list yourself? (Smilie not used, in order not to upset the grown-ups).
As for the accusation of being PF#1, now that's not fair, whoever said that ought to take it right back...... Hi, PF#1, hows those practice approaches coming along?
No, not really OK just to be insulted unless there's a good reason for it. But then, most folk don't just barge in cold to a new forum (or a room, or anywhere) and start laying down the law like you did. Perhaps that's what caused offence?
There's no seniority list here, just that most folks prefer a little common courtesy. Perhaps you thought you were at the top of the seniority list yourself? (Smilie not used, in order not to upset the grown-ups).
As for the accusation of being PF#1, now that's not fair, whoever said that ought to take it right back...... Hi, PF#1, hows those practice approaches coming along?