SAR: Search & Rescue Ops [Archive Copy]
The video was shown by TV and i couldn't see a reason why PP (professional pilots) shouldn't see the danger in some helicopterjobs. I have to train involved personal. And sometimes i think a lot of operators and personal don't wanna see the risks. Risk is part of the job but any personal should be best trained, mental prepared and equipped. A point that some operators, managers but also pilots don't wanna see. The helicopterworld is full of shorthaulers without hook redundancy, radiolink or with "costeffective" trained personal and equipment. The "Human Cargo" needs additionally to the normal cargolifts a special preparation.
Sorry but sometimes it's better to provocate... a discussion.
If non rescue involved PPRUNERS are shocked, sorry! but the helicopterworld isn't only the wannabees, flight training and executive area.
The thread is named " What a decision" thats including the decision to start such a thread.
Sorry but sometimes it's better to provocate... a discussion.
If non rescue involved PPRUNERS are shocked, sorry! but the helicopterworld isn't only the wannabees, flight training and executive area.
The thread is named " What a decision" thats including the decision to start such a thread.
Tecpilot - do you have the full version of the video - the one I saw a while ago included footage of the helicopter hovering before the cable was cut. I have been looking for this clip ever since as it brings out good points about winching safety for SAR crews. As for the crew on this clip I think they should have had a better flyaway option briefed and used their escape route rather than cutting the cable.
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Video
I have been watching the clip, and admittedly it causes some resistance, but I think it is vital to let people know of the dangers involved while winching. This mishap/accident is a human factors problem, and might have lacked the pre-flight briefing, in-flight communications, etc... To quote Jerry Lederer: "Learn from the mistakes of others; you'll never live long enough to make them all yourself".
As for one of the other posts expressing almost outrage and shock; we all readily accept people being crunched in car wreck, train wreck, suicidal folks on a railroad crossing, and the like. And all that stuff is presented in the morning tabloids to sweeten our coffees. Unfortunately, we have to learn from the mistakes of others to implement or devise safety policies. This clip might serve as a stern warning on the dangers HEMS crews are exposed to.
As for one of the other posts expressing almost outrage and shock; we all readily accept people being crunched in car wreck, train wreck, suicidal folks on a railroad crossing, and the like. And all that stuff is presented in the morning tabloids to sweeten our coffees. Unfortunately, we have to learn from the mistakes of others to implement or devise safety policies. This clip might serve as a stern warning on the dangers HEMS crews are exposed to.
Kissmy - I believe they both survived albeit fairly broken, which is amazing when you look at the video.
Sorry again folks for the gruesome video. It was my target to provocate.
But what is so shocking? The pictures? The direct and visual confrontation with an accident initiated by a bad prepared crew? The small frontier between live and death in the business? A wrong splitsecond decision? This nightmares happens, happens direct in front of us.
I assume we have round about 6000-8000 hoist or shorthaul rescues in Europe. We have any year 5-10 accidents or heavy incidents with Lady Luck in Europe only in this small part of the helicopterworld.
Samples: Single pilot lift off in a short haul AS 350 in Switzerland- chrashing into death, Class "D" release Sea King in UK, rescuer falls from longline in Austria, on a cable car evacuation a UH-1 in Germany cutted the hoist cable with rescuer online.
One of the problems is: any country still holds his own rules and any operator his own SOPs (if available!).
I know operators in Europe they have never heard anything about "escape routes". Preflight briefing for the special operation unknown. There are countries in Europe with no need to certify "Human Cargo" ops. The HHO (only hoist) section JAR-OPS 3 Amd 2 is not in law in some european countries. There are no certification rules for human cargo in the most countries.
JAA some years ago: The JAR-OPS 4 will solve the human cargo problem! JAR-OPS 4, i believe we will never seen a JAR-OPS 4 in Europe! JAA -> negative report!
And we have military and paramilitary units with procedures and equipment 30 years old. We have young police pilots with a minimum of sling load experience ( it's not part of their normal business) but performing short hauls.
But what is so shocking? The pictures? The direct and visual confrontation with an accident initiated by a bad prepared crew? The small frontier between live and death in the business? A wrong splitsecond decision? This nightmares happens, happens direct in front of us.
I assume we have round about 6000-8000 hoist or shorthaul rescues in Europe. We have any year 5-10 accidents or heavy incidents with Lady Luck in Europe only in this small part of the helicopterworld.
Samples: Single pilot lift off in a short haul AS 350 in Switzerland- chrashing into death, Class "D" release Sea King in UK, rescuer falls from longline in Austria, on a cable car evacuation a UH-1 in Germany cutted the hoist cable with rescuer online.
One of the problems is: any country still holds his own rules and any operator his own SOPs (if available!).
As for the crew on this clip I think they should have had a better flyaway option briefed and used their escape route rather than cutting the cable
JAA some years ago: The JAR-OPS 4 will solve the human cargo problem! JAR-OPS 4, i believe we will never seen a JAR-OPS 4 in Europe! JAA -> negative report!
And we have military and paramilitary units with procedures and equipment 30 years old. We have young police pilots with a minimum of sling load experience ( it's not part of their normal business) but performing short hauls.
I think that all pilots and crewman of rescue helicopters should view this video from time to time to remove any sense of lingering complacency. BTW crab, I had previously been informed that neither made it, so I am glad to hear that they did pull through.
Several disturbing points/questions:
1. tecpilot said it was a training mission. To do live winch training with no outs has been erradicated in this new risk management world - and this video is just the example needed to demonstrate why. Rescue personnel place themselves in danger often enough to save lives, why do it in training? It is not too hard to find a small drop/wall with a nice flat base and practice the cliff techniques in safety. This particualr accident was some time ago now, and it provided a catalyst for an examination of our training so as to learn from others. Re examine yours too.
2. tecpilot makes the point that the crew were unaware of the belay situation, thus may have cut the cable instead of fly away. The video shows a winch of a few meters prior to the cut, so I would assume that there was some signal from ground to air indicating the status of the belay prior to winch. Or at least this is one more lesson for the review of procedures: ensure clear and unambiguous signals so that ground and air parties hold the same mental model of the situation. This is simply a human error failing and has happened many times in the past: so it is a reminder to get the right signals, and dont compromise. Perhaps ground to air comms is the way of the future as tecpilot suggests, so we can engineer out this defficiency.
3. It would be intresting to hear the emergency brief, and see how that translated into the actions. For example, they may have pre determined a cut should malfunction occur before coming off their securing point, and a flyaway after. This then under lies the importance of point 2 and the critical nature of shared mental models.
A very sad occurence that should provide yet another motivation for review of winch ops and training. the more discussion on this thread the better!
Several disturbing points/questions:
1. tecpilot said it was a training mission. To do live winch training with no outs has been erradicated in this new risk management world - and this video is just the example needed to demonstrate why. Rescue personnel place themselves in danger often enough to save lives, why do it in training? It is not too hard to find a small drop/wall with a nice flat base and practice the cliff techniques in safety. This particualr accident was some time ago now, and it provided a catalyst for an examination of our training so as to learn from others. Re examine yours too.
2. tecpilot makes the point that the crew were unaware of the belay situation, thus may have cut the cable instead of fly away. The video shows a winch of a few meters prior to the cut, so I would assume that there was some signal from ground to air indicating the status of the belay prior to winch. Or at least this is one more lesson for the review of procedures: ensure clear and unambiguous signals so that ground and air parties hold the same mental model of the situation. This is simply a human error failing and has happened many times in the past: so it is a reminder to get the right signals, and dont compromise. Perhaps ground to air comms is the way of the future as tecpilot suggests, so we can engineer out this defficiency.
3. It would be intresting to hear the emergency brief, and see how that translated into the actions. For example, they may have pre determined a cut should malfunction occur before coming off their securing point, and a flyaway after. This then under lies the importance of point 2 and the critical nature of shared mental models.
A very sad occurence that should provide yet another motivation for review of winch ops and training. the more discussion on this thread the better!
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Hi guys, I just want to tell you that I know the 2 firemen personally and the pilot himself.....
he was banned to fly for the firemen EVER again.....
I have seen the full images, were the helicopter is shown (BO-105) , he is totally out of wind...fighting it...then it wants to weathercock ... and CUT! just terible.
SC
he was banned to fly for the firemen EVER again.....
I have seen the full images, were the helicopter is shown (BO-105) , he is totally out of wind...fighting it...then it wants to weathercock ... and CUT! just terible.
SC
I've got the information that one was a dummy and the rescuer survived. But one or two makes no difference for our thread.
During investigations the crew reported: The crew encountered wind problems and cutted the hoist, not knowing that the load was under way.
Looking to the clip we see that the rescuer is clearly indicating the upward signal and the hoist is going on. In this moment the helicoptercrew especially the hoist operator must be max concentrated on the lifting process. Therefore i'm not sure if the crew was unaware to see the load is up from ground. The hoist operator looked downward, loaded cable and the pilot needed more collective. The cable was cutted by the pilot. May be in strong and gusting wind he didn't note the more power and that the load was on their way. But what kind of intercomm they used? Didn't the operator talk to the pilot?
Next problem is the missed radiolink to the rescuer. In case of any cable release it's nearly impossible to inform the ground rescuer. The rescuer isn't informed about the problems above his head. Thats anyway a problem on such radiofree missions. Engine failure, any kind of powerdropping, hoist failure,... how is it possible to inform the "load". I remember the accident with the A 119 Koala in Austria, non radiolink, engine control problems, after more than 30 minutes and climbing up to more than 12,000 ft, OAT -25°C the rescuer was dropped into the Bodensee and died. Must be a horrortrip!
Why we do see up to today radiofree lifts? Equipment is available and it's cheap compared with the helicoptercosts, not more than 2000€ for a radiohelmet and a portable radio. 2000€ is the average price for ONE mission in the Alps.
How could a crew rate safe the weather conditions? Wind speed isn't the one and only factor. 20kt anyway allowed by manufacturer could be to much in some situations and on others 40kt are ok.
How many training needs the envolved personal? Some operators check their pilots any 3 months, the next 6 months, 12 months or they don't fly annually training. Some rescuers don't ever train annually or only 3-5 hurry lifts in 10 minutes.
Some operators in Europe are very professional and good, but the other side... We have some very experienced pilots and rescuers but due to the widen numbers of helicopters performing hoist or short haul missions the number of involved personal is increasing.
What's with risk management? In the Alps we have any year a increasing number of hoist and shorthauls. Nearly any broken ankle on ski slope must be "rescued" by shorthaul. It's comfortable for the ground troops and lucratively for the operators. If i train mountain troopers often they think a shorthaul or hoist mission is exciting but only a game. And they have that opinion from some TV shows and from some company managers trying to increase their business. Unfortunately is any shorthaul much more risky than the ground transport of the broken ankle by sleight (akja) from a well prepared ski slope.
During investigations the crew reported: The crew encountered wind problems and cutted the hoist, not knowing that the load was under way.
Looking to the clip we see that the rescuer is clearly indicating the upward signal and the hoist is going on. In this moment the helicoptercrew especially the hoist operator must be max concentrated on the lifting process. Therefore i'm not sure if the crew was unaware to see the load is up from ground. The hoist operator looked downward, loaded cable and the pilot needed more collective. The cable was cutted by the pilot. May be in strong and gusting wind he didn't note the more power and that the load was on their way. But what kind of intercomm they used? Didn't the operator talk to the pilot?
Next problem is the missed radiolink to the rescuer. In case of any cable release it's nearly impossible to inform the ground rescuer. The rescuer isn't informed about the problems above his head. Thats anyway a problem on such radiofree missions. Engine failure, any kind of powerdropping, hoist failure,... how is it possible to inform the "load". I remember the accident with the A 119 Koala in Austria, non radiolink, engine control problems, after more than 30 minutes and climbing up to more than 12,000 ft, OAT -25°C the rescuer was dropped into the Bodensee and died. Must be a horrortrip!
Why we do see up to today radiofree lifts? Equipment is available and it's cheap compared with the helicoptercosts, not more than 2000€ for a radiohelmet and a portable radio. 2000€ is the average price for ONE mission in the Alps.
How could a crew rate safe the weather conditions? Wind speed isn't the one and only factor. 20kt anyway allowed by manufacturer could be to much in some situations and on others 40kt are ok.
How many training needs the envolved personal? Some operators check their pilots any 3 months, the next 6 months, 12 months or they don't fly annually training. Some rescuers don't ever train annually or only 3-5 hurry lifts in 10 minutes.
Some operators in Europe are very professional and good, but the other side... We have some very experienced pilots and rescuers but due to the widen numbers of helicopters performing hoist or short haul missions the number of involved personal is increasing.
What's with risk management? In the Alps we have any year a increasing number of hoist and shorthauls. Nearly any broken ankle on ski slope must be "rescued" by shorthaul. It's comfortable for the ground troops and lucratively for the operators. If i train mountain troopers often they think a shorthaul or hoist mission is exciting but only a game. And they have that opinion from some TV shows and from some company managers trying to increase their business. Unfortunately is any shorthaul much more risky than the ground transport of the broken ankle by sleight (akja) from a well prepared ski slope.
I am amazed at the lack of comment on this accident. We have an English crew generate 9 pages of respnse for a straight forward, well thought out rescue, and not even two for this example.
Lots more what if's here:
1. Did the pilot "take the weight" or did the crewman do it using the up switch? Was the sudden downdraught the pilot thought he was in just the weight of the load coming off?
2. What was the pilot's mental model of what was going on? Did the crewman to pilot link fail, or the ground to crewman?
3. Why has this not reignited the debate about cable cutters?
just wondering...........
Lots more what if's here:
1. Did the pilot "take the weight" or did the crewman do it using the up switch? Was the sudden downdraught the pilot thought he was in just the weight of the load coming off?
2. What was the pilot's mental model of what was going on? Did the crewman to pilot link fail, or the ground to crewman?
3. Why has this not reignited the debate about cable cutters?
just wondering...........
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747 of rwy in DUS
just through the radio:
This morning a 747 freighter went of the runway during landing rollout. Two engines on fire, but extinguished quickliy by airport fire service. No injuries and delays in the operations.
... right now Metar:
EDDH 240720Z 36010KT 9999 FEW025 M01/M04 Q1016 05720187 15710187 NOSIG
original: WDR news radio
Flughafen Düsseldorf: Frachtmaschine fing Feuer
Auf dem Düsseldorfer Flughafen ist am Morgen eine Frachtmaschine von der Landebahn abgekommen.
Zwei Triebwerke der Boeing 747 der ***** aus Dubai fingen Feuer. Die Flughafen-Feuerwehr konnte den Brand schnell löschen. Verletzt wurde niemand, so ein Sprecher des Flughafens. Der Flugbetrieb sei zurzeit leicht eingeschränkt.
Pittspilot
This morning a 747 freighter went of the runway during landing rollout. Two engines on fire, but extinguished quickliy by airport fire service. No injuries and delays in the operations.
... right now Metar:
EDDH 240720Z 36010KT 9999 FEW025 M01/M04 Q1016 05720187 15710187 NOSIG
original: WDR news radio
Flughafen Düsseldorf: Frachtmaschine fing Feuer
Auf dem Düsseldorfer Flughafen ist am Morgen eine Frachtmaschine von der Landebahn abgekommen.
Zwei Triebwerke der Boeing 747 der ***** aus Dubai fingen Feuer. Die Flughafen-Feuerwehr konnte den Brand schnell löschen. Verletzt wurde niemand, so ein Sprecher des Flughafens. Der Flugbetrieb sei zurzeit leicht eingeschränkt.
Pittspilot
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Search & Rescue Statistics 2004
From the MoD Annual Report:-
In 2004, there were 1,551 UK or overseas incidents resulting in 1,698 callouts of Royal Navy and RAF Helicopters, Nimrod aircraft and Mountain Rescue Teams, who moved 1,442 people.
Incidents and callouts fell slightly compared with 2003; however the number of people moved increased by almost ten per cent, largely due to three major incidents in August.
On 7 August 2004, 2 Military Helicopters moved 35 cockle pickers to safety from rising tides in Morecambe Bay.
On 16 August 2004, 6 Sea King helicopters moved 91 people to safety from floods in Boscastle on the north coast of Cornwall.
On 18 August 2004, a Royal Navy and a RAF Sea King helicopter moved 53 people after landslides near Lochearnhead in Scotland.
96% of callouts in 2004 were in or around the UK. The others were in or around Cyprus or the Falkland Islands.
94% of UK callouts in 2004 were to civilian incidents.
60% of UK callouts in 2004 were to Scotland, the South West region or Wales. A further 16% of callouts were at sea.
In 2004, there were 1,551 UK or overseas incidents resulting in 1,698 callouts of Royal Navy and RAF Helicopters, Nimrod aircraft and Mountain Rescue Teams, who moved 1,442 people.
Incidents and callouts fell slightly compared with 2003; however the number of people moved increased by almost ten per cent, largely due to three major incidents in August.
On 7 August 2004, 2 Military Helicopters moved 35 cockle pickers to safety from rising tides in Morecambe Bay.
On 16 August 2004, 6 Sea King helicopters moved 91 people to safety from floods in Boscastle on the north coast of Cornwall.
On 18 August 2004, a Royal Navy and a RAF Sea King helicopter moved 53 people after landslides near Lochearnhead in Scotland.
96% of callouts in 2004 were in or around the UK. The others were in or around Cyprus or the Falkland Islands.
94% of UK callouts in 2004 were to civilian incidents.
60% of UK callouts in 2004 were to Scotland, the South West region or Wales. A further 16% of callouts were at sea.
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And...................................
Weren't they just doing what they are paid to to do from their comfy UK bases.
Can we expect to see similar stats from those deployed doing a 'fantastic job' in far flung places.
Before I receive a tirade of abuse, I admire the SAR boys of both services for the job they do, but what do these stats prove? What is an incident? Sure there were a couple of high-profile events, but the amount of coverage afforded (RAF News, etc) is often disproportionate.
Standby for incoming.
Weren't they just doing what they are paid to to do from their comfy UK bases.
Can we expect to see similar stats from those deployed doing a 'fantastic job' in far flung places.
Before I receive a tirade of abuse, I admire the SAR boys of both services for the job they do, but what do these stats prove? What is an incident? Sure there were a couple of high-profile events, but the amount of coverage afforded (RAF News, etc) is often disproportionate.
Standby for incoming.
'Weren't they just doing what they are paid to to do from their comfy UK bases.'
They can't take their comfy bases with them on a shout.
Can't think of anything else sensible to say until I simmer down!
They can't take their comfy bases with them on a shout.
Can't think of anything else sensible to say until I simmer down!
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As far i am aware it is only statistics for the RAF and RN, not HMCG unfortunately.
I should imagine the HMCG website might publish their own information regarding 'lives saved' and how many call outs they have had etc.
I should imagine the HMCG website might publish their own information regarding 'lives saved' and how many call outs they have had etc.
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'Weren't they just doing what they are paid to to do from their comfy UK bases
Rather than criticise our SAR forces we should congratulate them for the sterling effort they do in all weathers and without hesitation for the safety of themselves.
Maybe just one day you may need these guys.