SAR: Search & Rescue Ops [Archive Copy]
The final AAIB report relating to this accident is now available on the AAIB website.
I noticed that in 1990, a Safety Recommendation was made that, if implemented, may have prevented this particular incident. How the world works
I noticed that in 1990, a Safety Recommendation was made that, if implemented, may have prevented this particular incident. How the world works
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I've just read this thread for the first time and can't imagine how terrible the pilot must have felt when he heard about the rescuer's death.
In the surf rescue world we use a 50 ft rope attached to the cargo hook in a bin, fitted with 2 clips to attach to the surf crewman and the drowning swimmer. This is much quicker than using a winch in rough surf and is surprisingly fool proof. After pick up, we air taxi back to the beach as low as possible in case the survivor slips out of the harness.
I could not imagine doing this with a 150 ft line, at great heights in case in this type of problem occurs. Surely this is why the winch was invented and with 300 ft cables, there wouldn't be too many occasions when a winch would be impossible.
In the surf rescue world we use a 50 ft rope attached to the cargo hook in a bin, fitted with 2 clips to attach to the surf crewman and the drowning swimmer. This is much quicker than using a winch in rough surf and is surprisingly fool proof. After pick up, we air taxi back to the beach as low as possible in case the survivor slips out of the harness.
I could not imagine doing this with a 150 ft line, at great heights in case in this type of problem occurs. Surely this is why the winch was invented and with 300 ft cables, there wouldn't be too many occasions when a winch would be impossible.
The file is closed. The engine and the electronic fuel control was inspected by P&W Canada. The reason for the failure couldn't be exactly detected, but is out of the question a technical problem. On the test rig the engine worked proper. 
The pilot is fully rehabilitated and verified for "doing his best in an extrem difficult situation". Investigations showed some missed parts in flight manual and emergency checklist, pre-flight and transaction. As example, a nonexisting radio connection between pilot in the helicopter and rescuer on the sling. 
After the accident the IKAR (International Commission for Alpine Rescue) published some safety advices to his members around the world and made some testflights to determine the chances for a HHEC autorotation.
The pilot is fully rehabilitated and verified for "doing his best in an extrem difficult situation". Investigations showed some missed parts in flight manual and emergency checklist, pre-flight and transaction. As example, a nonexisting radio connection between pilot in the helicopter and rescuer on the sling. After the accident the IKAR (International Commission for Alpine Rescue) published some safety advices to his members around the world and made some testflights to determine the chances for a HHEC autorotation.
Thanks Tecpilot.
Was there any discussion on the twins V singles for this type of work?
Any discussion relating to future design of more easily manipuilated throttles for controlling such emergencies?
Any discussion on the virtues of winches V longline as a result of the accident?
Thanks.
Was there any discussion on the twins V singles for this type of work?
Any discussion relating to future design of more easily manipuilated throttles for controlling such emergencies?
Any discussion on the virtues of winches V longline as a result of the accident?
Thanks.
hi helmet f.
1. No discussions about twins v. singles. The reason is, the IKAR is a worldwide organisation with different flight rules, authorities, and laws. In the US there is no pressure to use twins on such ops, in Europe i hope the described accident should be the last short haul accident with a single, because nearly all countrys have accepted the actual JAR-OPS 3 and the coming JAR-OPS 4. JAR-OPS 4 will have concrete and specified regulations about short haul ops.
2. No discussions about throttles and design, only about flight manuals and ops procedures
3. No disussions about hoist v. short haul, because the accident is a technical failure on the helicopter.
The hoist v. short haul discussion seems momentarily going to the short haul. It isn't a questions of possibilities and advantages, it's a questions of costs. In austria as example, nearly all rescue helicopters have decided to use the short haul.
1. No discussions about twins v. singles. The reason is, the IKAR is a worldwide organisation with different flight rules, authorities, and laws. In the US there is no pressure to use twins on such ops, in Europe i hope the described accident should be the last short haul accident with a single, because nearly all countrys have accepted the actual JAR-OPS 3 and the coming JAR-OPS 4. JAR-OPS 4 will have concrete and specified regulations about short haul ops.
2. No discussions about throttles and design, only about flight manuals and ops procedures
3. No disussions about hoist v. short haul, because the accident is a technical failure on the helicopter.
The hoist v. short haul discussion seems momentarily going to the short haul. It isn't a questions of possibilities and advantages, it's a questions of costs. In austria as example, nearly all rescue helicopters have decided to use the short haul.
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Can an aircraft limit be broken for SAR?
It was reported the other day that the crew of a RN SAR helo elected to fly above VNE in order to reach the scene of a rescue quicker and therefore have more fuel/time on scene to effect the rescue. Surely VNE is VNE or does the RN allow limits to be broken for lifesaving missions?
Moreover apparently having done the job and got the non critical casualty back to base they then refuelled and flew a now potentially unserviceable aircraft again to take him to the local hospital.
Not wanting to start a witch hunt but does this happen often?
Moreover apparently having done the job and got the non critical casualty back to base they then refuelled and flew a now potentially unserviceable aircraft again to take him to the local hospital.
Not wanting to start a witch hunt but does this happen often?
niknak
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I am not military, but deal with SAR on a reglar basis.
Given that they people who fly these missions are the most experienced aircrew in their field, and probably know their aircraft as well as their engineers do, I would say it's judgement call that only they can make, and in doing so they take into account all the factors available to them at the time.
This would not of course, include the judgemental inclusion of hindsight to which you allude to in referring to the casualty as "non critical".
Witch hunt my arse!
Given that they people who fly these missions are the most experienced aircrew in their field, and probably know their aircraft as well as their engineers do, I would say it's judgement call that only they can make, and in doing so they take into account all the factors available to them at the time.
This would not of course, include the judgemental inclusion of hindsight to which you allude to in referring to the casualty as "non critical".
Witch hunt my arse!
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I've had to ask a pilot to break Vmax on a couple of occasions. It's not something we take lightly but we genuinely thought the cas was about to peg out.
One died anyway and the other walked out of the hospital less than 24 hrs later without giving his name. Something in the music industry allegedly. Make your own conclusions.
One died anyway and the other walked out of the hospital less than 24 hrs later without giving his name. Something in the music industry allegedly. Make your own conclusions.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Anybody who busts Vne is a suicidal idiot!!!! Other than mortal combat I can see of NO scenario whereby you could justify exceeding that particular airframe parameter.
Ever seen the picture of the Vulcan that exceeded it? Leading edge peeled off a treat!!
It means exactly what it says on the tin!! But then the Air Farce is full of two-winged idiots who think they know better than the manufacturers eh!!
I was unforunate enough to be sat behind one who took my Herc outside the flight envelope at 250'. Scared that apple tree in the orchard far*less we did!! Provided a spectacular display for the M5 though!!
I would imagine a frame that has been deliberately flown above Vne would be destined for a scrapyard! I certainly wouldn't like to fly in it would you??
Niknak
No pilot or engineer ever knows the frame as well as the manufacturer. It is the manufacturer who sets Vne!!
Ever seen the picture of the Vulcan that exceeded it? Leading edge peeled off a treat!!
It means exactly what it says on the tin!! But then the Air Farce is full of two-winged idiots who think they know better than the manufacturers eh!!
I was unforunate enough to be sat behind one who took my Herc outside the flight envelope at 250'. Scared that apple tree in the orchard far*less we did!! Provided a spectacular display for the M5 though!!
I would imagine a frame that has been deliberately flown above Vne would be destined for a scrapyard! I certainly wouldn't like to fly in it would you??
Niknak
No pilot or engineer ever knows the frame as well as the manufacturer. It is the manufacturer who sets Vne!!
Gorilla
Interested in your comment:
When the thread starts:
Interested in your comment:
But then the Air Farce is full of two-winged idiots who think they know better than the manufacturers eh!!
It was reported the other day that the crew of a RN SAR helo elected to fly above VNE
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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JAFO
Well done, I wondered how long it would take someone to spot that. I am not changing it cos I have had 2 very bad evenings!!
England was one and the lovely Vanessa of Big Brother is two!!
So there!!
Well done, I wondered how long it would take someone to spot that. I am not changing it cos I have had 2 very bad evenings!!
England was one and the lovely Vanessa of Big Brother is two!!
So there!!
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Not in the same league, but I remember once being in a bar room discussion with several gliding instructors when the hypothetical question arose, suppose you 'lost' it in cloud or the like, is it better to exceed G-Limits or VNE?
Without fail, all the wise ones said respect VNE and pull that G. The airframe tolerances are usually higher for G limits than VNE which in many case I understand, is set only 5-10 kts below the point at which things start fluttering I gather!
Without fail, all the wise ones said respect VNE and pull that G. The airframe tolerances are usually higher for G limits than VNE which in many case I understand, is set only 5-10 kts below the point at which things start fluttering I gather!
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Sadly, Gorilla, life in the human World is not always as simple as it is for you primates.
The phrase "It was reported the other day" throws many variables into the discussion. We must question both the expertise and the motives of the reporter in this case, particularly as he uses the expression 'Vne', which is very seldom used in the helicopter fraternity.
It would be very unusual for a SAR helicopter to be capable of flying above Vne (or its rotary equivalent) in sustained flight. Not quite so unusual for it to be capable of flying above Vmax: an entirely different prospect, which a lot of SAR captains would happily contemplate in life-saving situations. (See 2ndclasscitizen's post)
Thankfully, the human race has evolved beyond the simplistic Gorilla's view, and some of its members are morally and intellectually equipped to make judgements on complex issues.
The phrase "It was reported the other day" throws many variables into the discussion. We must question both the expertise and the motives of the reporter in this case, particularly as he uses the expression 'Vne', which is very seldom used in the helicopter fraternity.
It would be very unusual for a SAR helicopter to be capable of flying above Vne (or its rotary equivalent) in sustained flight. Not quite so unusual for it to be capable of flying above Vmax: an entirely different prospect, which a lot of SAR captains would happily contemplate in life-saving situations. (See 2ndclasscitizen's post)
Thankfully, the human race has evolved beyond the simplistic Gorilla's view, and some of its members are morally and intellectually equipped to make judgements on complex issues.
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PU,
So let me get this straight In certain circumstances busting and airframe/engine limitation is acceptable based on the scenario presented
Ever wonder how these limitations are derived
VNE, VMAX, VNO, blah blah are exactly that...........so why bust them
Gorrila is quite right to point out that more often than not us "educationally challenged" souls find ourselves hooked on to the gearbox of some medal hunting feckwit who believes his understanding of the airframes limits is far superior to the specialists the manufacturer employs
all spelling misatkes are "df" alcohol induced
So let me get this straight
In certain circumstances busting and airframe/engine limitation is acceptable based on the scenario presented Ever wonder how these limitations are derived
VNE, VMAX, VNO, blah blah are exactly that...........so why bust them
Gorrila is quite right to point out that more often than not us "educationally challenged" souls find ourselves hooked on to the gearbox of some medal hunting feckwit who believes his understanding of the airframes limits is far superior to the specialists the manufacturer employs
all spelling misatkes are "df" alcohol induced
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Abiw
"In certain circumstances busting and airframe/engine limitation is acceptable based on the scenario presented"
OF COURSE IT IS
SAR crews are frequently faced with this quandary, and they often sacrifice (for example) a little fatigue life in order to help a human one. The decision is based on a multitude of factors, and the crew's knowledge, training and experience can help them make it. Safety of the aircraft and crew is paramount, they all understand that the very worst thing they can do for a survivor/casualty is to become casualties themselves. In my experience these decisions are crew-based and I have never known SAR engineers subsequently to show anything but understanding for their difficult plight.
The vast majority of aircraft engineers are intelligent people who undertsand the operational requirements of their and their aircraft's role. Clearly there are exceptions to this.
"In certain circumstances busting and airframe/engine limitation is acceptable based on the scenario presented"
OF COURSE IT IS
SAR crews are frequently faced with this quandary, and they often sacrifice (for example) a little fatigue life in order to help a human one. The decision is based on a multitude of factors, and the crew's knowledge, training and experience can help them make it. Safety of the aircraft and crew is paramount, they all understand that the very worst thing they can do for a survivor/casualty is to become casualties themselves. In my experience these decisions are crew-based and I have never known SAR engineers subsequently to show anything but understanding for their difficult plight.
The vast majority of aircraft engineers are intelligent people who undertsand the operational requirements of their and their aircraft's role. Clearly there are exceptions to this.
Avoid imitations
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The key point is knowledge of the limits, the reasons they were set and the consequences of exceeding the limit. A really good captain will know the above and hopefully make a reasoned decision. Just because a limit is exceeded doesn't necessarily make him a bad pilot.
On a helicopter, maximum IAS limits are set to avoid excessive vibration and a reduction of fatigue life and not for reasons of "aerodynamic flutter". In extremis, depending on type of aircraft, retreating blade stall may also be a limiting factor, subject to all up mass. It isn't really possible to directly compare helicopter limits with those of a glider or any other fixed wing though.
Transmission torque limits are set for similar reasons. In some cases, helicopters transmissions are able to carry quite a bit more torque than the published limit, but at the expense of possible excessive wear. It really depends on the weakest part in the transmission.
If the situation justified it, I would possibly risk the life of a machine to save human life, provided I was sure there was no danger to persons on board. One vital thing is that if a normal limit is exceeded, it must be documented so that corrective engineering maintenance can be carried out if required.
A few years ago I overtorqued a fully laden S-76 because on approach to a newly refurbished and supposedly FOD-plodded and cleared helipad, a hidden piece of wood suddenly flew up in the downwash towards the tail rotor. The crewman screamed that it was going to hit and full power didn't give sufficient avoiding action so adrenalin made me keep pulling until he stopped screaming. The overtorque (fairly large but short lived) was properly written up and no damage was found by the engineers. I was not criticised but then we (7 of us) would possibly have been dead had I NOT exceeded the normal transmision limits.
On a helicopter, maximum IAS limits are set to avoid excessive vibration and a reduction of fatigue life and not for reasons of "aerodynamic flutter". In extremis, depending on type of aircraft, retreating blade stall may also be a limiting factor, subject to all up mass. It isn't really possible to directly compare helicopter limits with those of a glider or any other fixed wing though.
Transmission torque limits are set for similar reasons. In some cases, helicopters transmissions are able to carry quite a bit more torque than the published limit, but at the expense of possible excessive wear. It really depends on the weakest part in the transmission.
If the situation justified it, I would possibly risk the life of a machine to save human life, provided I was sure there was no danger to persons on board. One vital thing is that if a normal limit is exceeded, it must be documented so that corrective engineering maintenance can be carried out if required.
A few years ago I overtorqued a fully laden S-76 because on approach to a newly refurbished and supposedly FOD-plodded and cleared helipad, a hidden piece of wood suddenly flew up in the downwash towards the tail rotor. The crewman screamed that it was going to hit and full power didn't give sufficient avoiding action so adrenalin made me keep pulling until he stopped screaming. The overtorque (fairly large but short lived) was properly written up and no damage was found by the engineers. I was not criticised but then we (7 of us) would possibly have been dead had I NOT exceeded the normal transmision limits.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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It is the manufacturer who sets Vne!!
Dangerous aeroplanes are those where there is enough power to exceed Vd in level flight or with a small rate of descent that could arise from a moments inattention. There have been one or two examples of this problem in the past and (reasonably) they have attracted a Vne lower than 90% of Vd.
Some aircraft in development programmes get modified for various reasons and this can call for an even lower Vne to be set temporarily. I believe this was one factor in the Vulcan accident referred to earlier.
Please note I am not saying identical rules apply to rotary wing certification as I have never been involved with that. But I would be surprised if the situation with choppers was not similar. Perhaps a rotary wing tp will comment.
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PU,
Apologies, my only excuse being that the great god "San Miguel" clouded my response. The examples you give are spot on and I am now climbing back in me box
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Apologies, my only excuse being that the great god "San Miguel" clouded my response. The examples you give are spot on and I am now climbing back in me box
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced