Rating: R44 v B206 Jetranger?
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I have to disagree Igor, if it gets the job done effectively and economically then is a 'real' working helicopter. Any design that expands the roles we can fill in this profession and allow more industries to use and pay for our talents the better.
I'd personally recommend our questioner to go for a turbine endorsement rather than another piston to expand his knowledge base, and to research the area he plans to look for work in. The machine that is used there primarily is the one to pursue.
And on the other point, if you have knowledge of a $150K per year helo job, I'd love to hear about it. From my experience we'd all have to go work for an airline to experience wagwes like that, but maybe I haven't been out and about enough yet...
I'd personally recommend our questioner to go for a turbine endorsement rather than another piston to expand his knowledge base, and to research the area he plans to look for work in. The machine that is used there primarily is the one to pursue.
And on the other point, if you have knowledge of a $150K per year helo job, I'd love to hear about it. From my experience we'd all have to go work for an airline to experience wagwes like that, but maybe I haven't been out and about enough yet...
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R44 II versus 206 etc
Posted from a previous thread.
Spoke with Q who got a chance to fly the R44 II and he gave it a very good going over.In his opinion the Robinson helicopter has "come of age".The additional power is noticable close to the ground as well as at high altitude.He tried everything to make the engine falter or cut out but without success,pulling max power then down to idle repeatedly.He succeded in the past in doing this in the non-injected models.He flew it with the guy who did the C of A the other day who was also very impressed which is something as Robinson's didn't figure highly in his estimation until this.The distinction has blurred even further between it and it's turbine cousins.Given that seemingly the 44 has proven to be more reliable than the 206 and so much cheaper to buy/maintain I'm left wondering what's the point except for the extra seat (which is unusable with full fuel),the sound and a little extra cargo room!...opinions anybody?
Spoke with Q who got a chance to fly the R44 II and he gave it a very good going over.In his opinion the Robinson helicopter has "come of age".The additional power is noticable close to the ground as well as at high altitude.He tried everything to make the engine falter or cut out but without success,pulling max power then down to idle repeatedly.He succeded in the past in doing this in the non-injected models.He flew it with the guy who did the C of A the other day who was also very impressed which is something as Robinson's didn't figure highly in his estimation until this.The distinction has blurred even further between it and it's turbine cousins.Given that seemingly the 44 has proven to be more reliable than the 206 and so much cheaper to buy/maintain I'm left wondering what's the point except for the extra seat (which is unusable with full fuel),the sound and a little extra cargo room!...opinions anybody?
Uhhh... who says the R-44 is more reliable than B-206???
Although I am in favour of the Robinson helicopter, if given the choice I would always prefer the B-206 over the R-44 even if it costs a bit more to run.
Although I am in favour of the Robinson helicopter, if given the choice I would always prefer the B-206 over the R-44 even if it costs a bit more to run.
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
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Well I was dragged up on the Robbo and think both the 22 and 44 are great fun, but....
Having flown the 206 too the Robbo just not in the same league, the sound of a turbine winding up is unmatchable!
Sorry but the 206 is just a 'sexier' machine!
Having flown the 206 too the Robbo just not in the same league, the sound of a turbine winding up is unmatchable!
Sorry but the 206 is just a 'sexier' machine!
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I would rather have the autorotation characteristics of the JetRanger than the R44. I would also rather have the beefier airframe for its crash worthiness. And...you just can't beat the turbine for the reliability.
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As an R44 pilot, I have my pros and cons. For me, it doesnt really matter having the sound of the turbine spooling up. Key or starter button I could care less. The 44 is an exceptional machine, high VNE, extremely nice aircraft to fly. My problems is that it is not a good corporate aircraft, only three seats avail. and barely any luggage room, tough to pull off an OGE with 4 men and tanks topped off on a 100 degree day.
The 206 has some room for luggage and everyone likes the turbine for reliability, but the fact is, though there are much less 44s flying around then 206s, the 44 simply has a lower engine failure rate per 100,000 hours, the O-540 has been proved exrememly reliable. Blades in the 44 and 206 are very similar, they autorotate very similar, its very easy to grease the 44 and 206 on in a full down. (the same cant be said for the 22)
With reagards to cost, turbine means big bucks. Acquistion, hourly, maintenance, parts, and overhaul are all very expensive. I believe the 44 has the 206 beat fare there.
I think the Raven II is a great helicopter for many misisons and I love flying 44s, but the 206 will always fit in some areas better, like transport, long line.
The 206 has some room for luggage and everyone likes the turbine for reliability, but the fact is, though there are much less 44s flying around then 206s, the 44 simply has a lower engine failure rate per 100,000 hours, the O-540 has been proved exrememly reliable. Blades in the 44 and 206 are very similar, they autorotate very similar, its very easy to grease the 44 and 206 on in a full down. (the same cant be said for the 22)
With reagards to cost, turbine means big bucks. Acquistion, hourly, maintenance, parts, and overhaul are all very expensive. I believe the 44 has the 206 beat fare there.
I think the Raven II is a great helicopter for many misisons and I love flying 44s, but the 206 will always fit in some areas better, like transport, long line.
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'...you can't beat a turbine for reliability...'
Oh, yes you can. It's a common misconception that small turbine engines are more reliable than pistons. It might have been true in the early days of Hiller 12s and Bell 47s, but today the boot's on the other foot.
I think you'll find that while pilots prefer the "sexier" whine of the turbine, owners are much more smitten with the reciprocating version.
Now the EC120, that's another league again...
Oh, yes you can. It's a common misconception that small turbine engines are more reliable than pistons. It might have been true in the early days of Hiller 12s and Bell 47s, but today the boot's on the other foot.
I think you'll find that while pilots prefer the "sexier" whine of the turbine, owners are much more smitten with the reciprocating version.
Now the EC120, that's another league again...
The tinny feel of the 44 is what loses me - the piddly doors, the single-thickness-feel of all the metalwork, inability to carry any solid or pointy object that you wouldn't like to have rammed up your fundamental orifice.
I was having a backseat ride with 2 other pilots and the salesman as part of a sales demo. The pilot next to me wanted to shift his backside in the seat, and grabbed the metal bar across the back of the front seats to do so. As he pulled on this bar, it seemed that the front seats got closer to each other and the walls and roof bowed in a bit. The bar came back far more than either of us expected.
We didn't buy one, and stayed with the 206 fleet.
I was having a backseat ride with 2 other pilots and the salesman as part of a sales demo. The pilot next to me wanted to shift his backside in the seat, and grabbed the metal bar across the back of the front seats to do so. As he pulled on this bar, it seemed that the front seats got closer to each other and the walls and roof bowed in a bit. The bar came back far more than either of us expected.
We didn't buy one, and stayed with the 206 fleet.
Avoid imitations
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Perhaps a case of one being built to a price and the other one being built, at a price.
The drivers of those rear engined Skodas and 3 wheeler Reliant drivers all swear by them and don't like to hear a bad word said....
The drivers of those rear engined Skodas and 3 wheeler Reliant drivers all swear by them and don't like to hear a bad word said....
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Anyone who puts chauvinism ahead of commercial considerations is probably going to go broke, but from the sounds of some of you guys, you'll go broke knowing you were right.
The R44 handles better, is faster and goes further than the 206, at around half the price. If you think it's tinny, let me tell you the punters don't differentiate - I find that most prefer the R44 because they're not caged behind a bulkhead and they get a much, much better view.
Turbine snobs are a dying breed.
The R44 handles better, is faster and goes further than the 206, at around half the price. If you think it's tinny, let me tell you the punters don't differentiate - I find that most prefer the R44 because they're not caged behind a bulkhead and they get a much, much better view.
Turbine snobs are a dying breed.
Avoid imitations
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T'aint natural,
Point is, it's a free world and given a free choice, it's got NOTHING to do with commercial considerations. If I was paying the bills, I wouldn't buy a helicopter at all, in case I finished up with a small fortune, having begun with a large one.
If you can only afford to drive a cheap car, that's what you'll enjoy driving. Same with anything.
Have a Happy Christmas and enjoy yourself flying this holiday.
P.S. Turbine snobs are alive and well!
Point is, it's a free world and given a free choice, it's got NOTHING to do with commercial considerations. If I was paying the bills, I wouldn't buy a helicopter at all, in case I finished up with a small fortune, having begun with a large one.
If you can only afford to drive a cheap car, that's what you'll enjoy driving. Same with anything.
Have a Happy Christmas and enjoy yourself flying this holiday.
P.S. Turbine snobs are alive and well!
It's not just an adventure....
it's just a job!
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Boys...boys...boys! Settle down.
Are we talking about a comparison of types for training or revenue?
Training> You can't beat the Robbo cost, it is simply cheaper to fly a piston.
Performance> The 206 is a long proven work horse and is in no way threatened by the R44.
Lets not forget that everyone has to start somewhere and for some it's Turbine and others it's piston.
We all started somewhere, we all just didn't get there yet.
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
Are we talking about a comparison of types for training or revenue?
Training> You can't beat the Robbo cost, it is simply cheaper to fly a piston.
Performance> The 206 is a long proven work horse and is in no way threatened by the R44.
Lets not forget that everyone has to start somewhere and for some it's Turbine and others it's piston.
We all started somewhere, we all just didn't get there yet.
Cheers,
OffshoreIgor
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Quote: Performance - The 206 is a long proven work horse and is in no way threatened by the R44.
Duh? Admittedly the 206 is long past its sell-by date, but I don't get the 'in no way threatened' bit.
Duh? Admittedly the 206 is long past its sell-by date, but I don't get the 'in no way threatened' bit.
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R44 or Jetranger
This will probably open a can of worms, which is not my intention. Here goes.
I'm after some thoughts and opinions on which machine would be better suited to a small charter/airwork operation doing a fair bit of exclusive type tourism work and filming/photography, also the other regular stuff. The toss up is bettween a new R44 or a second hand Jetranger
I'm reasonably clued up on the R44 in respect to operating costs, maintenance etc, but know little about the Jetranger.
Bellytank: if I'm not mistaken you operate one of each, is one better than the other from a bottom line perspective?
A few other questions run along the line of:
Are good second hand Jetrangers hard to find in Australia?
What should you expect to pay for one?
Do government departments still insist on turbines for their contracts?
Is dealer/factory support any good from Bell ie can you get parts quickly, or can you be stuck for weeks aog.
etc, etc. etc.
Any thoughts or wisdom will be greatly appreciated
I'm after some thoughts and opinions on which machine would be better suited to a small charter/airwork operation doing a fair bit of exclusive type tourism work and filming/photography, also the other regular stuff. The toss up is bettween a new R44 or a second hand Jetranger
I'm reasonably clued up on the R44 in respect to operating costs, maintenance etc, but know little about the Jetranger.
Bellytank: if I'm not mistaken you operate one of each, is one better than the other from a bottom line perspective?
A few other questions run along the line of:
Are good second hand Jetrangers hard to find in Australia?
What should you expect to pay for one?
Do government departments still insist on turbines for their contracts?
Is dealer/factory support any good from Bell ie can you get parts quickly, or can you be stuck for weeks aog.
etc, etc. etc.
Any thoughts or wisdom will be greatly appreciated
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Although I love both, I feel the R44 has the edge for what you want to do, in spite of having one less seat.
From the viewpoint (literally) of pax, it's as good as an old saloon car without headrests! - Those in the back have a brilliant view. In the 206 they are, and can feel (in my experience) cut off from what is happening.
I assume the reduced running & mainytenance costs will make up for the missing seat, in Australia as it does elsewhere?
Also, the hydraulics now make the R44 feel like a JetRanger to fly, as I don't doubt you have experienced for yourself AND you can choose to land on water, if you're allowed to, which is "divine"!
It's easy to obtain a very smart and presentable R44, whereas a reasonably priced 206 could possibly be scruffy and smelly, which is a real turn-off.
Well - there's my tuppenceworth!
(I'm a 55 year old instructor in Snowdonia, North Wales, U.K. but my daughter is studying for her CPL(H) at Bankstown - pardon me bursting with pride!)
yours aye,
Paul Murphy :-)
From the viewpoint (literally) of pax, it's as good as an old saloon car without headrests! - Those in the back have a brilliant view. In the 206 they are, and can feel (in my experience) cut off from what is happening.
I assume the reduced running & mainytenance costs will make up for the missing seat, in Australia as it does elsewhere?
Also, the hydraulics now make the R44 feel like a JetRanger to fly, as I don't doubt you have experienced for yourself AND you can choose to land on water, if you're allowed to, which is "divine"!
It's easy to obtain a very smart and presentable R44, whereas a reasonably priced 206 could possibly be scruffy and smelly, which is a real turn-off.
Well - there's my tuppenceworth!
(I'm a 55 year old instructor in Snowdonia, North Wales, U.K. but my daughter is studying for her CPL(H) at Bankstown - pardon me bursting with pride!)
yours aye,
Paul Murphy :-)