Heading for disaster
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heading for disaster
Since this forum is monopolised by lowtime JAR/CAA flying students obsessed with money and their potential employment and lifestyle issues; I thought I better stir things up with some thoughts from reading all your threads.
Downunder and up there, it seems the way most of you think of getting a job post licencing is by getting an instructor rating. Not a lot of you consider heading out to look for a hangar job or other menial work route that most of the higher time pilots on this forum were forced to do. The attitude is simply charge it up and buy myself a job.
It is becoming the preferred method of cracking the industry and (I'm sure it's been voiced before) in my opinion we are allowing a dillution of training that is slowly permeating all aspects of our industry to its detrement.
It is driven by the regulatory authorites who allow 200hr pilots to start training immediately out of their licences. Blind leading the blind.
This is a perfect situation for the training schools since they generally get their future staff to pay for their training and then work them for free for another 100hrs or pay them peanuts for the priviledge of gaining experience at another students loss.
What loss? well they cannot impart any commonsence nor well learned lessons from industry experience. Their 'instructor' struts around pretending he/she knows what its all about while ignoring the self doubt in the back of the mind.
Later the 'instructor' jumps up another level on the rung with the accrual of lots of time watching someone else fly and then gets to supervise other 'new' instructors. Its a retarded system.
The system won't pay decent wages to pilots with 5000hrs for training so they don't do it. If the hightime pilot opts to become an instructor, he gets a measly 5hr reduction for having an ATPL licence or nothing at all for a CPL and has to do the same length of course as the 200hr newbie. So after 5-10yrs of industry time you are loathed to part with the money to take on a job that pays you peanuts.
Any experienced IFR Captain or high time bush pilot will tell you we are starting to see the effects of this system. Pilots who come into jobs lacking in radio skills, airspace knowledge, bush experience and poor aircraft handling skills.
What is the answer? What have you recently shaken your head at and what needs to be done?
Downunder and up there, it seems the way most of you think of getting a job post licencing is by getting an instructor rating. Not a lot of you consider heading out to look for a hangar job or other menial work route that most of the higher time pilots on this forum were forced to do. The attitude is simply charge it up and buy myself a job.
It is becoming the preferred method of cracking the industry and (I'm sure it's been voiced before) in my opinion we are allowing a dillution of training that is slowly permeating all aspects of our industry to its detrement.
It is driven by the regulatory authorites who allow 200hr pilots to start training immediately out of their licences. Blind leading the blind.
This is a perfect situation for the training schools since they generally get their future staff to pay for their training and then work them for free for another 100hrs or pay them peanuts for the priviledge of gaining experience at another students loss.
What loss? well they cannot impart any commonsence nor well learned lessons from industry experience. Their 'instructor' struts around pretending he/she knows what its all about while ignoring the self doubt in the back of the mind.
Later the 'instructor' jumps up another level on the rung with the accrual of lots of time watching someone else fly and then gets to supervise other 'new' instructors. Its a retarded system.
The system won't pay decent wages to pilots with 5000hrs for training so they don't do it. If the hightime pilot opts to become an instructor, he gets a measly 5hr reduction for having an ATPL licence or nothing at all for a CPL and has to do the same length of course as the 200hr newbie. So after 5-10yrs of industry time you are loathed to part with the money to take on a job that pays you peanuts.
Any experienced IFR Captain or high time bush pilot will tell you we are starting to see the effects of this system. Pilots who come into jobs lacking in radio skills, airspace knowledge, bush experience and poor aircraft handling skills.
What is the answer? What have you recently shaken your head at and what needs to be done?
It is all about the bottom line dear chap. Cheap is good....Good ain't cheap.
The cost of obtaining adequate training and experience is terrible now....how does a student afford the costs of "Professional level" instructor wages?
The cost of obtaining adequate training and experience is terrible now....how does a student afford the costs of "Professional level" instructor wages?
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whilst I'm more of a fixed wing type than rotary these days, the thing that makes me shake my head is the constant shouting about how standards are dropping, with no real data behind these assumptions. Has the accident rate suddenly started increasing?
Someone with 200 hrs is seriously wet behind the ears, but they should be supervised by an experienced instructor to monitor what they teach and how they do it.
I've personally seen more problems with "experienced" people being new FI's than a lot of newbies. Experienced people have often been away from the training environment for so long, that they try and treat it like a commercial flight despite the fact there are so many differences, though they get to grips with these problems pretty quickly it has to be said.
Until there are more jobs available for low timers or more experienced people want to instruct, then there is naff all we can do to change this situation.
People want to get a start in this industry and having put themselves into hock massively in the first place, what's another few grand here and there?
There's nothing wrong with someone trying to get a job and it's hardly the fault of the pilots is it? I mean I know what I'd rather do. Fly helicopters and get paid or sweep floors....... Honestly, don't be so daft.
I sense a bit of jealousy in your post and a feeling that somehow nobody should be allowed to teach until they have significant experience, could you tell me how they are to get this experience in the first place?
I got my first flying job as an FI and haven't looked back since. I like to think I did as good a job as possible in the early days and whilst I still teach now I'm no better or worse than I was before, it's just that I know a bit more and now have to keep an eye on those with less experience.
"Industry experience" is usually nothing more than a good dose of common sense and some people are born with loads of it whilst others wouldn't know it if jumped up and bit them every day for twenty years.
One last point, how are we to attract experienced people back to training? It doesn't pay enough or most are too busy working for their primary employer. What would you rather do, Sit in a Robbie for £30/hr or be flying around in an S76 and getting paid significantly more..... Answers on a postcard!
Someone with 200 hrs is seriously wet behind the ears, but they should be supervised by an experienced instructor to monitor what they teach and how they do it.
I've personally seen more problems with "experienced" people being new FI's than a lot of newbies. Experienced people have often been away from the training environment for so long, that they try and treat it like a commercial flight despite the fact there are so many differences, though they get to grips with these problems pretty quickly it has to be said.
Until there are more jobs available for low timers or more experienced people want to instruct, then there is naff all we can do to change this situation.
People want to get a start in this industry and having put themselves into hock massively in the first place, what's another few grand here and there?
There's nothing wrong with someone trying to get a job and it's hardly the fault of the pilots is it? I mean I know what I'd rather do. Fly helicopters and get paid or sweep floors....... Honestly, don't be so daft.
I sense a bit of jealousy in your post and a feeling that somehow nobody should be allowed to teach until they have significant experience, could you tell me how they are to get this experience in the first place?
I got my first flying job as an FI and haven't looked back since. I like to think I did as good a job as possible in the early days and whilst I still teach now I'm no better or worse than I was before, it's just that I know a bit more and now have to keep an eye on those with less experience.
"Industry experience" is usually nothing more than a good dose of common sense and some people are born with loads of it whilst others wouldn't know it if jumped up and bit them every day for twenty years.
One last point, how are we to attract experienced people back to training? It doesn't pay enough or most are too busy working for their primary employer. What would you rather do, Sit in a Robbie for £30/hr or be flying around in an S76 and getting paid significantly more..... Answers on a postcard!
Guest
Posts: n/a
yes, in an ideal world the 200hr guy would sweep the hangar floor, learn the business from the bottom up, sit left seat to a more experienced pilot and get some wisdom, maybe fly easy photo flights, ferry flights etc
unfortunately this is reality. insurance companies are reluctant to insure commercial pilots on anything other than an r22 with under 1,000 hours
plus, there just isnt the opportunity for every 200 hr guy to start at the bottom of the business sweeping floors etc
and... do you really think someone who has just spent 50,000+ dollars/pounds on his professional licence will be happy sweeping floors for 2 years before getting a sniff of the controls?
unfortunately this is reality. insurance companies are reluctant to insure commercial pilots on anything other than an r22 with under 1,000 hours
plus, there just isnt the opportunity for every 200 hr guy to start at the bottom of the business sweeping floors etc
and... do you really think someone who has just spent 50,000+ dollars/pounds on his professional licence will be happy sweeping floors for 2 years before getting a sniff of the controls?
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: canada
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Training has been diluted, couldn't agree more.
Here in Canada, there is still a demand for the high time instructor, so it's not a critical issue yet.... Those who justify 300hr pilots teaching 20hr pilots have no idea; either they've never experienced good training from experienced teachers, or they themselves have come up through the ranks of the low-time instructor and are strongly biased.
How can those with no experince operating a helicopter impart knowledge in excess of the federally mandated standard(which sucks in most cases)? Answer: they can't.
RH
Here in Canada, there is still a demand for the high time instructor, so it's not a critical issue yet.... Those who justify 300hr pilots teaching 20hr pilots have no idea; either they've never experienced good training from experienced teachers, or they themselves have come up through the ranks of the low-time instructor and are strongly biased.
How can those with no experince operating a helicopter impart knowledge in excess of the federally mandated standard(which sucks in most cases)? Answer: they can't.
RH
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: inside
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I love the attitude of the newcomers to this "great" industry....they figured out all by themselves that sweeping the hangar floor means NOTHING.
It's a sign of intelligence......savour it, cause' they're the future. And they are showing more moral and backbone than many old whiners. IMO.
Pay a decent wage from day one to attract talent....stop the old excuse of cost (how come the average owner/operator drives really nice cars, if business is soooo bad)
!!!
And then, and ONLY then, you will see an overall improvement. Or are you just bitching and being a old wiseass knowitall everybody is laughing at ?
It's a sign of intelligence......savour it, cause' they're the future. And they are showing more moral and backbone than many old whiners. IMO.
Pay a decent wage from day one to attract talent....stop the old excuse of cost (how come the average owner/operator drives really nice cars, if business is soooo bad)
!!!And then, and ONLY then, you will see an overall improvement. Or are you just bitching and being a old wiseass knowitall everybody is laughing at ?
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: AUS
Posts: 331
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After having flown for a number of years it was interesting to recently fly with an instructor who had done very little else. he seemed to be quite a capable instructor however there was perhaps a lack of understanding of the practicle application of what he was teaching and therefor a certain inflexibility to the lessons he was trying to impart.
I would say that anytime you are trying to pass on a skill or lesson learned from someone else without ever having actually used that skill yourself in a practical situation there is a very real danger that some of the original message gets distorted or left behind.
I would say that anytime you are trying to pass on a skill or lesson learned from someone else without ever having actually used that skill yourself in a practical situation there is a very real danger that some of the original message gets distorted or left behind.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: That Bit up the Top Down Under
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As someone that has only been in the game a few years, my first move, and I believed it to be the only way to really get in to the industry, was to go out and put myself on the hangar floor. The company i work for now have always had, and hopefully always will have the philosophy that you must earn your time in the hangar first. I certainly don't see the time spent in the hangar as wasting precious time flying. It is something that only adds to your understanding of not only the aircraft around you, but the industry in which you work.
Depending on how many pilots/aircraft the company has, the time on the floor with out flying seems to be around 6 months. Yes, this is time spent sometimes sweeping floors/cleaning gutters/weeding gardens, but it also involves a lot of time working hands-on on the aircraft with the engineers (good guys to get to know.....). This experience makes the world of difference once you start flying out in the 'real world', especially in places up here in the NT where you are often by yourself with help a long way away. From an employers point of view it also gives them time to see how the new pilot relates to everyone else, and their general attitude/work ethic. This is much more important than pure flying skill for any junior pilot, as skill takes experience and comes with time.
I spent a few years (by choice for the last one) working in the hangar, and you will get paid for it, if it is a good company (like the one i work for) just not a lot. Not that that changes once you start flying anyway..
.
I have met a lot of newbies, as I am currently in the position of sifting through resumes looking for someone to work out here, and the most common response seems to be that they don't want to put in the 'hard' yards in the hangar (one of the best times I've had), and want to start flying straight away. Unfortunately for these guys, they are not the ones going to get the job out here. Every person that has gone through this old system seems to have more of a general body of knowledge about the industry and more practical hands on experience, which becomes invaluable once they need to be sent out on their own.
Whether some people see this as the old way of doing things and we should be changing with the times or not, it doesn't change the fact that there are always more junior pilots out there, so if you don't want to do the time, don't expect to get a start out here.
Oh, and the destructor thing? how can you teach what you haven't learnt yet? It's all very well and good to be shown something once, nod your head, say you understand it, but until you've been there/done that on your own, real time...... no thanks.
All the guys that taught me were 8000+ hrs, and there is something to be said for life experience. If I was paying for my licence again, I would make damn sure that the guys I was paying to teach me were the best. Its your dollar, you choose.
rant over....
Oh..and if there is anyone out there that wouldn't mind a job in the NT, and doesn't mind a few months in the hangar, feel free to PM me. All robbies, mostly 22's.
Depending on how many pilots/aircraft the company has, the time on the floor with out flying seems to be around 6 months. Yes, this is time spent sometimes sweeping floors/cleaning gutters/weeding gardens, but it also involves a lot of time working hands-on on the aircraft with the engineers (good guys to get to know.....). This experience makes the world of difference once you start flying out in the 'real world', especially in places up here in the NT where you are often by yourself with help a long way away. From an employers point of view it also gives them time to see how the new pilot relates to everyone else, and their general attitude/work ethic. This is much more important than pure flying skill for any junior pilot, as skill takes experience and comes with time.
I spent a few years (by choice for the last one) working in the hangar, and you will get paid for it, if it is a good company (like the one i work for) just not a lot. Not that that changes once you start flying anyway..
.I have met a lot of newbies, as I am currently in the position of sifting through resumes looking for someone to work out here, and the most common response seems to be that they don't want to put in the 'hard' yards in the hangar (one of the best times I've had), and want to start flying straight away. Unfortunately for these guys, they are not the ones going to get the job out here. Every person that has gone through this old system seems to have more of a general body of knowledge about the industry and more practical hands on experience, which becomes invaluable once they need to be sent out on their own.
Whether some people see this as the old way of doing things and we should be changing with the times or not, it doesn't change the fact that there are always more junior pilots out there, so if you don't want to do the time, don't expect to get a start out here.
Oh, and the destructor thing? how can you teach what you haven't learnt yet? It's all very well and good to be shown something once, nod your head, say you understand it, but until you've been there/done that on your own, real time...... no thanks.
All the guys that taught me were 8000+ hrs, and there is something to be said for life experience. If I was paying for my licence again, I would make damn sure that the guys I was paying to teach me were the best. Its your dollar, you choose.
rant over....
Oh..and if there is anyone out there that wouldn't mind a job in the NT, and doesn't mind a few months in the hangar, feel free to PM me. All robbies, mostly 22's.
Gatvol
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: KLAS/TIST/FAJS/KFAI
Posts: 4,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"it seems the way most of you think of getting a job post licencing is by getting an instructor rating. "
I think 'Post Licensing" most get an Instructor rating so that they can starve a bit slower and build time. As at 200 hours there are limited jobs available.
"The system won't pay decent wages to pilots with 5000hrs for training so they don't do it. "
Maybe close on that one as the more experienced one is the less a company seems to want to part with for currency.
Bottom line is that you may find some of the newbies are pretty sharp on the books, but still dont know where the Cargo Hook is located, wheras the experienced driver who is flying 5 or more variations of some machines may not be able to tell you the exact numbers on each machine.... makes it nice for the little lines, green, yellow, red..........
Interesting Post....
I think 'Post Licensing" most get an Instructor rating so that they can starve a bit slower and build time. As at 200 hours there are limited jobs available.
"The system won't pay decent wages to pilots with 5000hrs for training so they don't do it. "
Maybe close on that one as the more experienced one is the less a company seems to want to part with for currency.
Bottom line is that you may find some of the newbies are pretty sharp on the books, but still dont know where the Cargo Hook is located, wheras the experienced driver who is flying 5 or more variations of some machines may not be able to tell you the exact numbers on each machine.... makes it nice for the little lines, green, yellow, red..........
Interesting Post....
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Age: 72
Posts: 4,151
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes
on
14 Posts
No, but I certainly wouldn't be expecting to sweep the hospital floors. I would expect to be mentored by a senior surgeon.
Northern Mountain had a policy of new CPLs sweeping the floors or staying behind the ops desk for two years before they started flying. As a result, they lost currency and interest and it cost the company a LOT more when it came to finally getting them qualified than if they'd just given them some flying to do. In six weeks at Fort St John one year I did over 76 hours that could have been done by a junior pilot.
I've never agreed with the philosophy that "It was good enough for me, so it's good enough for you". That attitude is why children still get beaten. It's time to change it, otherwise the new people will have be brought in in such a hurry that they will make the same mistakes all over again.
Phil
Northern Mountain had a policy of new CPLs sweeping the floors or staying behind the ops desk for two years before they started flying. As a result, they lost currency and interest and it cost the company a LOT more when it came to finally getting them qualified than if they'd just given them some flying to do. In six weeks at Fort St John one year I did over 76 hours that could have been done by a junior pilot.
I've never agreed with the philosophy that "It was good enough for me, so it's good enough for you". That attitude is why children still get beaten. It's time to change it, otherwise the new people will have be brought in in such a hurry that they will make the same mistakes all over again.
Phil
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Victoria
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the voice of reason
It's time to change it, otherwise the new people will have be brought in in such a hurry that they will make the same mistakes all over again.
oh the 'juniors' have no idea
oh they wont do the hard yards
oh they don't swallow
As a somewhat mature 'junior' i find it disconcerting that the longevity of the skillset/experience within the insdustry is being sacrificed because the passage of knowledge isn't being conducted as it should.
just because a low hour pilots pants are down around his ankles, isn't necessarily an open invitation to any & every callous operator to give him a good rogering.
seems the same people complaining over experienced pilot shortages are the same ones slagging the newcomers
reinvest in the industries future (juniors) or the industry will have no future investments (seniors)
Nothing changes: the UK route to CPL(A) used to allow shiny new PPL's to become instructors: after 700 hours they then qualified as a CPL (with appropriate exam passes, of course).
It didn't seem too flash an idea then, either
It didn't seem too flash an idea then, either
The discussion about low hour instructors and retaining experienced pilots etc has some merit. The discussion about cleaning hangar floors has rather less merit!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Aus
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the last time I looked you needed 400 hours prior to sitting the flight test to become a Helicopter Flight Instructor in Australia.
Why does aviation, and especially the helicopter industry, promugate the industry stance of "slaving".
And yes, just because I did it does not mean that it should continue.
Ask the first year apprentice electrician, mechanic or plummer what they are getting paid and the conditions they work under. Its not the same as a qualified tradesman but at least they know what to expect.
Shame industry! Shame!
thants my rant for today
Why does aviation, and especially the helicopter industry, promugate the industry stance of "slaving".
And yes, just because I did it does not mean that it should continue.
Ask the first year apprentice electrician, mechanic or plummer what they are getting paid and the conditions they work under. Its not the same as a qualified tradesman but at least they know what to expect.
Shame industry! Shame!
thants my rant for today
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Spain
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've never seen or heard of a 200hr pilot who flew like a 2000 hr pilot. Even the so-called natural pilot people have spoken about...
You can't be serious MK 10?
I've known several 2000 hr pilot's who flew like their drunk,drugged or intellectually lame...
But in their worst moments, they flew like a drunk,drugged or intellectually lame 2000 hr pilot...Huge difference!
It's after 2000 hrs that the difference in experience begins to fade.
Often can't tell the difference between a 3000 hour guy and a 13,000 hour guy...but 200 hrs...Please!
You can't be serious MK 10?
I've known several 2000 hr pilot's who flew like their drunk,drugged or intellectually lame...
But in their worst moments, they flew like a drunk,drugged or intellectually lame 2000 hr pilot...Huge difference!
It's after 2000 hrs that the difference in experience begins to fade.
Often can't tell the difference between a 3000 hour guy and a 13,000 hour guy...but 200 hrs...Please!