You're a pilot? You have the right to remain...
Avoid imitations
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Pilots - on aeroplanes? Oh my gosh, isn't that dangerous?
Paranoia.
I'm getting paranoid about paranoia
Paranoia.
I'm getting paranoid about paranoia
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the over-the-top attitude americans have to security is ridiculous. in washington DC you have to do a load of paperwork, filing, faxing, calling etc if you want to fly an poxy r22 within 30 miles of DC, yet you could drive a 20 ton truck almost up to the gates of the whitehouse.
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Bell Helicopter Textron trainees detained
I strongly recommend to be cautious of what one reads when being on a plane.
Don't read the Bible, Quoran, or any other material that could be construed as an intend to do harm.
5 on Plane Are Detained at Newark, but Later Freed
By MANNY FERNANDEZ and KAREEM FAHIM
Published: May 7, 2006
Five men on an American Airlines flight from Dallas to Newark set off a security alert and were detained yesterday after passengers and crew members said they were acting suspiciously and reading flight manuals, officials said.
But officials said they determined that the men posed no threat, and released them. At least four of the men were members of the Angolan military, one official said, and had just finished helicopter training in Texas.
After the plane landed safely at Newark Liberty International Airport at 3:15 p.m., the men were searched, handcuffed and taken into custody by police officers from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which operates the airport, the authorities and passengers said. The men were eventually interviewed by the F.B.I. and allowed to leave, officials said.
Flight 1874 left Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport around 11:15 a.m. with 121 passengers and 5 crew members.
Steve Siegel, a special agent with the F.B.I. in Newark, said that the five men were speaking in a foreign language — the official language of Angola is Portuguese — and switching seats, and that "between the passengers and the flight crew, there were some suspicions."
Two law enforcement officials who spoke on condition of anonymity said the men also aroused concern because they were reading flight manuals.
One of the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly about the incident, said the five men — four in the Angolan military, and the fifth an Israeli — had just completed helicopter training at a Bell Helicopter flight school in Texas.
The official said the men were talking among themselves, switching seats, holding manuals and sometimes making hand gestures.
Among the passengers were air marshals and an agent from the Drug Enforcement Administration. After the agents "made themselves known to each other," the official said, they separated, guarding the plane from different posts.
The D.E.A. agent positioned himself at the front of the plane, near the cockpit door, to head off any attack there. Meanwhile, the marshals sat where they could keep watch over the five men.
An air marshal on board notified authorities on the ground that there were five suspicious passengers aboard, said Marc LaVorgna, a spokesman for the Port Authority.
Some passengers interviewed last night said there was nothing suspicious about the men. The men acted like "a group of people traveling together who didn't get seats together," said Barbara O'Reilly, 66, a passenger from Tulsa, Okla. "I was really surprised" that they were taken into custody, she said.
Geri Inness, 59, a former flight attendant who was a passenger, said the men were singled out for no reason. "They looked shocked, like, 'What the hell is going on?' That was the expression they had on their faces," said Ms. Inness, who was returning from a trip to an artist colony in Mexico.
After the plane, an MD-80, landed in Newark, it taxied to a secure and remote area of the airport. Passengers said emergency vehicles surrounded the plane, and their luggage was placed on the tarmac. They said bomb-sniffing dogs screened their luggage as well as the plane after passengers exited the airliner. They were taken by bus to a terminal.
The men were released sometime before 5:30 p.m. One law enforcement official said they caught a connecting flight to Angola. They had no weapons, said Tim Smith, a spokesman for American Airlines.
Madelyn Connolly, 85, a retired teacher from El Paso, said she was sitting next to one of the men in Row 9. The man, tall and muscular in a cap and a red jacket, talked with another man sitting across the aisle from him. After the plane landed, air marshals asked the man closest to her to go with them. She said he did so without protesting.
"They were not one bit suspicious," she said. "You wouldn't think a thing about them."
But Mr. Siegel, the F.B.I. special agent, said he did not fault those who reported the behavior.
"We would never second-guess anyone who sat through this," he said. "We'd rather people report their observations. That's exactly what happened here."
Janon Fisher, Nate Schweber and Matthew L. Wald contributed reporting for this article.
Don't read the Bible, Quoran, or any other material that could be construed as an intend to do harm.
5 on Plane Are Detained at Newark, but Later Freed
By MANNY FERNANDEZ and KAREEM FAHIM
Published: May 7, 2006
Five men on an American Airlines flight from Dallas to Newark set off a security alert and were detained yesterday after passengers and crew members said they were acting suspiciously and reading flight manuals, officials said.
But officials said they determined that the men posed no threat, and released them. At least four of the men were members of the Angolan military, one official said, and had just finished helicopter training in Texas.
After the plane landed safely at Newark Liberty International Airport at 3:15 p.m., the men were searched, handcuffed and taken into custody by police officers from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which operates the airport, the authorities and passengers said. The men were eventually interviewed by the F.B.I. and allowed to leave, officials said.
Flight 1874 left Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport around 11:15 a.m. with 121 passengers and 5 crew members.
Steve Siegel, a special agent with the F.B.I. in Newark, said that the five men were speaking in a foreign language — the official language of Angola is Portuguese — and switching seats, and that "between the passengers and the flight crew, there were some suspicions."
Two law enforcement officials who spoke on condition of anonymity said the men also aroused concern because they were reading flight manuals.
One of the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly about the incident, said the five men — four in the Angolan military, and the fifth an Israeli — had just completed helicopter training at a Bell Helicopter flight school in Texas.
The official said the men were talking among themselves, switching seats, holding manuals and sometimes making hand gestures.
Among the passengers were air marshals and an agent from the Drug Enforcement Administration. After the agents "made themselves known to each other," the official said, they separated, guarding the plane from different posts.
The D.E.A. agent positioned himself at the front of the plane, near the cockpit door, to head off any attack there. Meanwhile, the marshals sat where they could keep watch over the five men.
An air marshal on board notified authorities on the ground that there were five suspicious passengers aboard, said Marc LaVorgna, a spokesman for the Port Authority.
Some passengers interviewed last night said there was nothing suspicious about the men. The men acted like "a group of people traveling together who didn't get seats together," said Barbara O'Reilly, 66, a passenger from Tulsa, Okla. "I was really surprised" that they were taken into custody, she said.
Geri Inness, 59, a former flight attendant who was a passenger, said the men were singled out for no reason. "They looked shocked, like, 'What the hell is going on?' That was the expression they had on their faces," said Ms. Inness, who was returning from a trip to an artist colony in Mexico.
After the plane, an MD-80, landed in Newark, it taxied to a secure and remote area of the airport. Passengers said emergency vehicles surrounded the plane, and their luggage was placed on the tarmac. They said bomb-sniffing dogs screened their luggage as well as the plane after passengers exited the airliner. They were taken by bus to a terminal.
The men were released sometime before 5:30 p.m. One law enforcement official said they caught a connecting flight to Angola. They had no weapons, said Tim Smith, a spokesman for American Airlines.
Madelyn Connolly, 85, a retired teacher from El Paso, said she was sitting next to one of the men in Row 9. The man, tall and muscular in a cap and a red jacket, talked with another man sitting across the aisle from him. After the plane landed, air marshals asked the man closest to her to go with them. She said he did so without protesting.
"They were not one bit suspicious," she said. "You wouldn't think a thing about them."
But Mr. Siegel, the F.B.I. special agent, said he did not fault those who reported the behavior.
"We would never second-guess anyone who sat through this," he said. "We'd rather people report their observations. That's exactly what happened here."
Janon Fisher, Nate Schweber and Matthew L. Wald contributed reporting for this article.
Gatvol
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Comes from having Sky Marshalls who dont have a lot of experience. In fact most have zero Law Enforcement experience before getting the job. Given time all will work out..Today all roll to the side of caution... He perceived a problem and did what he was taught. Can't fault that.......And no doubt he was not a pilot so had no clue as to what was going on there.
I travel on airlines every week, hand carry my headsets, maps, GPS, etc....Never have a problem. I suspect someday someone may ask me why, but I can give an answer........
Im sure the press (Kareem Fahim) worked hard at shoving this down the publics throat.
I travel on airlines every week, hand carry my headsets, maps, GPS, etc....Never have a problem. I suspect someday someone may ask me why, but I can give an answer........
Im sure the press (Kareem Fahim) worked hard at shoving this down the publics throat.
the detainees
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Just a technicality, but they were not actually flight manuals, but maintenance manuals. If someone had bothered to look a bit closer they would have seen Bell Helicopters plastered all over the front and on all the pages.
Still I suppose it sends out the message that these things are taken seriously.
Still I suppose it sends out the message that these things are taken seriously.
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Had we been over the top, there would have never been a 9-11...
I also regret these individuals were singled out. Unfortunately, ignorance about other people, language and customs is not just limited to the USA. I think the average person of any country that has not travelled outside of their country has a skewed view which result in unfounded bias and fears.
I also regret these individuals were singled out. Unfortunately, ignorance about other people, language and customs is not just limited to the USA. I think the average person of any country that has not travelled outside of their country has a skewed view which result in unfounded bias and fears.
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at the risk of incurring the moderators wrath...
i think the terrorists would have found another method if airport security would have been tighter (truck bomb etc)
i'm inclined to think the USA foreign policy of the last 20 years is more of an explanation for the attacks
i think the terrorists would have found another method if airport security would have been tighter (truck bomb etc)
i'm inclined to think the USA foreign policy of the last 20 years is more of an explanation for the attacks
EEK, A MOUSE!! Oh wait...no...just a shadow or something. Whew! I'll tell ya, been more than a little paranoid and jumpy since 9/11. Every non-white, non-English-speaking person I see, I assume they're about to ram a 747 into the Statue of Liberty. Evidently I am not alone. The U.S. has become a nation of jittery, paranoid, hyper-racist people. But the terrorists have not won, eh?
Air marshals (more than one per flight, apparently and astoundingly!), DEA agents?! How do the airlines find room for the actual...you know...fare-paying passengers?
It's all so silly. Yes, silly. Ridiculous, even.
I will say this bluntly and out loud: There will never be another "9/11" style aircraft hijacking. Not in a million years. They might as well leave the cockpit doors unlocked and unguarded. No self-respecting airline pilot will ever let his plane get taken over ever again.
The thing that everyone seems to forget or ignore is that each of the crews on those hijacked and doomed airliners had the opportunity to end it before the hijackers ever gained access to the cockpit. All they would've had to do was hit the "Fasten Your Seatbelts If You Want To Live" switch and then do a little "aggressive" maneuvering, to include some Negative-G (a la "Vomit Comet") while donning their O2 masks and depressurizing the cabin. Those in reach of their own oxygen masks would have had them. The hijackers, up and about (literally!) in the cabin, would be starving for air. (The stews knew where to find their own portable bottles.)
I'm not talking about yanking so hard you rip the wings off. Just the kind of maneuvering we all know an airliner can take. Heck, that Alaska Airlines DC-9 that crashed off the coast of California managed to fly inverted for a bit before the horizontal stabilizer broke completely off, sending the plane into a vertical plunge. Jets are tough.
Pin them on the floor with some robust positive-g (while bleeding speed off at the same time), then put 'em up on the ceiling with some negative. Then back on the floor, hard. Repeat as necessary until everything's quiet back there. The unstrapped cabin attendants would have to fend for themselves. But they're trained for that.
Let us recognize that in each of the cases, the hijackers had made themselves known in the cabin. With whatever "weapons" they had on them, they forced the flight attendants to force the pilots to open the doors. The flight crews willingly obliged (something every airline pilot must now wince at in retrospect). So all the passengers were aware that Something Bad was happening. And bad stuff should not happen up at cruise altitude...MUST not happen up there.
No more airliners will be hijacked; that's my opinion. Airline pilots might have to sacrifice a flight attendant but, as morbid as it sounds, it's better than sacrificing the whole airplane and however-many people on the ground. Is it worth the trade-off? YOU BET IT IS! No airline pilot will let "9/11" happen again, air marshals or no air marshals onboard.
So everyone just relax a bit. Take a breath. Settle down. Let's not assume every "foreigner" is out to cancel Christmas. Stop being so damned paranoid and just realize that the PILOTS...you know, the guys who have the ultimate control of the plane...will get you there safely, and we don't need trigger-happy armed guards to "help." (But oh, doesn't it make us feel better!)
To be sure, Muslim terrorists will strike again; that is a given. To a Muslim, the only good Christian is a dead Christian (never forget that). And they won't be stupid or silly enough to repeat their last gambit. The next attack will come "out of nowhere" just to prove to us that they can. And do not fool yourself, they certainly can. No amount of illegal wire-tapping or shoe-inspecting will prevent it. It will be interesting to see where and how they strike next.
Air marshals (more than one per flight, apparently and astoundingly!), DEA agents?! How do the airlines find room for the actual...you know...fare-paying passengers?
It's all so silly. Yes, silly. Ridiculous, even.
I will say this bluntly and out loud: There will never be another "9/11" style aircraft hijacking. Not in a million years. They might as well leave the cockpit doors unlocked and unguarded. No self-respecting airline pilot will ever let his plane get taken over ever again.
The thing that everyone seems to forget or ignore is that each of the crews on those hijacked and doomed airliners had the opportunity to end it before the hijackers ever gained access to the cockpit. All they would've had to do was hit the "Fasten Your Seatbelts If You Want To Live" switch and then do a little "aggressive" maneuvering, to include some Negative-G (a la "Vomit Comet") while donning their O2 masks and depressurizing the cabin. Those in reach of their own oxygen masks would have had them. The hijackers, up and about (literally!) in the cabin, would be starving for air. (The stews knew where to find their own portable bottles.)
I'm not talking about yanking so hard you rip the wings off. Just the kind of maneuvering we all know an airliner can take. Heck, that Alaska Airlines DC-9 that crashed off the coast of California managed to fly inverted for a bit before the horizontal stabilizer broke completely off, sending the plane into a vertical plunge. Jets are tough.
Pin them on the floor with some robust positive-g (while bleeding speed off at the same time), then put 'em up on the ceiling with some negative. Then back on the floor, hard. Repeat as necessary until everything's quiet back there. The unstrapped cabin attendants would have to fend for themselves. But they're trained for that.
Let us recognize that in each of the cases, the hijackers had made themselves known in the cabin. With whatever "weapons" they had on them, they forced the flight attendants to force the pilots to open the doors. The flight crews willingly obliged (something every airline pilot must now wince at in retrospect). So all the passengers were aware that Something Bad was happening. And bad stuff should not happen up at cruise altitude...MUST not happen up there.
No more airliners will be hijacked; that's my opinion. Airline pilots might have to sacrifice a flight attendant but, as morbid as it sounds, it's better than sacrificing the whole airplane and however-many people on the ground. Is it worth the trade-off? YOU BET IT IS! No airline pilot will let "9/11" happen again, air marshals or no air marshals onboard.
So everyone just relax a bit. Take a breath. Settle down. Let's not assume every "foreigner" is out to cancel Christmas. Stop being so damned paranoid and just realize that the PILOTS...you know, the guys who have the ultimate control of the plane...will get you there safely, and we don't need trigger-happy armed guards to "help." (But oh, doesn't it make us feel better!)
To be sure, Muslim terrorists will strike again; that is a given. To a Muslim, the only good Christian is a dead Christian (never forget that). And they won't be stupid or silly enough to repeat their last gambit. The next attack will come "out of nowhere" just to prove to us that they can. And do not fool yourself, they certainly can. No amount of illegal wire-tapping or shoe-inspecting will prevent it. It will be interesting to see where and how they strike next.
You have the right to remove your brain...
If we all just do as we are told and understand that the authorities know best and are only doing their jobs we will be safe and the world will ultimately be a better place. Our leaders are wise and well-informed.
This all may mean a little inconvenience; and the occasional miscarriage of justice. Democracy comes at a price; sometimes that may mean abductions and torture of innocent people too. But law enforcement folk and the good and sensible public is just trying to DO THE RIGHT THING. After all, if you want to catch that elusive fish, best trawl the whole ocean and everything in it, right?
Oh ye faithful….
This all may mean a little inconvenience; and the occasional miscarriage of justice. Democracy comes at a price; sometimes that may mean abductions and torture of innocent people too. But law enforcement folk and the good and sensible public is just trying to DO THE RIGHT THING. After all, if you want to catch that elusive fish, best trawl the whole ocean and everything in it, right?
Oh ye faithful….
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PPF #1,
Interesting post. Certainly an immotive perspective and I was with you in 'in spirit' of the pilots beng far better prepared. I like the idea of the pilots throwing their jets all around the sky as a last ditch attempt to save lives. However, I would not like to place 'all my eggs in one basket' in terms of aviation security.
I remember that aviation accidents were once described as being a sequence of events, or omissions, that resulted in a problem of failure causing an accident. If I remember rightly like the random holes in a swiss cheese that achieve alignment once in a while.
Personally I would rather have the series of filters that will hopefully provide a deterrant to those who would seek to cause havoc on the lives of others. Some mistakes will be made both in failures to stop attacks and as has happened here some completely innocent individuals who did not deserve to have their day ruined. I am sure they would still want security on their flights to be ready and vigilent.
I hope you dont mind but I would have liked you to have put one important word after the word 'muslim' in terms of them wanting to see Christians dead. The term in my opiion should be 'Muslim extremists'. I know many Muslims who would never wish to see anyone dead. Just a small point but I bet there are Muslim pilots who read this board who may be a bit unhappy with that comment.
As usual thought...interesting post.
IC
Interesting post. Certainly an immotive perspective and I was with you in 'in spirit' of the pilots beng far better prepared. I like the idea of the pilots throwing their jets all around the sky as a last ditch attempt to save lives. However, I would not like to place 'all my eggs in one basket' in terms of aviation security.
I remember that aviation accidents were once described as being a sequence of events, or omissions, that resulted in a problem of failure causing an accident. If I remember rightly like the random holes in a swiss cheese that achieve alignment once in a while.
Personally I would rather have the series of filters that will hopefully provide a deterrant to those who would seek to cause havoc on the lives of others. Some mistakes will be made both in failures to stop attacks and as has happened here some completely innocent individuals who did not deserve to have their day ruined. I am sure they would still want security on their flights to be ready and vigilent.
I hope you dont mind but I would have liked you to have put one important word after the word 'muslim' in terms of them wanting to see Christians dead. The term in my opiion should be 'Muslim extremists'. I know many Muslims who would never wish to see anyone dead. Just a small point but I bet there are Muslim pilots who read this board who may be a bit unhappy with that comment.
As usual thought...interesting post.
IC
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PPF#1,
I was with you 100% right up until "
"
Personally I know many muslims who I work with on a daily basis. I don't worry for a second that they might be plotting my diabolical demise. Considering there's about a billion muslims on the planet, it's patently obvious that they're not all out to get us heathen white westerners. Unfortunately, branding all muslims together as rabid jihadists does about a fifth of the world's population an enormous injustice. I'm not doubting there's nutters among them, but a statement like that is as grossly innacurate as suggesting all Christians are paedophiles simply because the occasional priest likes to park his sausage in young boys.
Si
I was with you 100% right up until "
To a Muslim, the only good Christian is a dead Christian (never forget that).
Personally I know many muslims who I work with on a daily basis. I don't worry for a second that they might be plotting my diabolical demise. Considering there's about a billion muslims on the planet, it's patently obvious that they're not all out to get us heathen white westerners. Unfortunately, branding all muslims together as rabid jihadists does about a fifth of the world's population an enormous injustice. I'm not doubting there's nutters among them, but a statement like that is as grossly innacurate as suggesting all Christians are paedophiles simply because the occasional priest likes to park his sausage in young boys.
Si
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Originally Posted by chuckolamofola
Had we been over the top, there would have never been a 9-11...
Unfortunately, ignorance about other people, language and customs is not just limited to the USA.
Unfortunately, ignorance about other people, language and customs is not just limited to the USA.
No, but the USA is certainly the most obvious example of such ignorance.
Torquetalk:
Man, I hope you're just trolling. Because if not, you are one SERIOUSLY disturbed individual.
Islandcrazy:
I was not suggesting that we eliminate any pre-boarding screening or security checks. Nobody gets onboard with bombs or guns anymore; the 9/11 hijackers only had boxcutters and...what else? The shoe-bomber guy was a joke.
Screw them. Look, you people obviously know VERY LITTLE about the Muslim faith. Here is the deal: There are two kinds of Muslims: Moderates and Extremists. Definitions to follow.
Extremist Muslim: Wants to see all Christians (infidels) dead.
Moderate Muslim: Is okay with non-Muslims...as long as they are dead.
Either way, the end result is the same. The Muslim faith is NOT one of peace, no matter what they *tell* you. Read the Koran, folks. They are dangerous.
If we all just do as we are told and understand that the authorities know best and are only doing their jobs we will be safe and the world will ultimately be a better place. Our leaders are wise and well-informed.
This all may mean a little inconvenience; and the occasional miscarriage of justice. Democracy comes at a price; sometimes that may mean abductions and torture of innocent people too.
This all may mean a little inconvenience; and the occasional miscarriage of justice. Democracy comes at a price; sometimes that may mean abductions and torture of innocent people too.
Islandcrazy:
I was with you in 'in spirit' of the pilots beng far better prepared. I like the idea of the pilots throwing their jets all around the sky as a last ditch attempt to save lives. However, I would not like to place 'all my eggs in one basket' in terms of aviation security.
hope you dont mind but I would have liked you to have put one important word after the word 'muslim' in terms of them wanting to see Christians dead. The term in my opiion should be 'Muslim extremists'. I know many Muslims who would never wish to see anyone dead. Just a small point but I bet there are Muslim pilots who read this board who may be a bit unhappy with that comment.
Extremist Muslim: Wants to see all Christians (infidels) dead.
Moderate Muslim: Is okay with non-Muslims...as long as they are dead.
Either way, the end result is the same. The Muslim faith is NOT one of peace, no matter what they *tell* you. Read the Koran, folks. They are dangerous.
PPF#1
Worry not, it was irony pure.
Only a lampoon of the mindset that quietly really DOES believe that stuff. And plenty of folks do...
I agree with the other contributers re. your remark re. Muslim's - overgeneralised and off-target. Otherwise power to your elbow m8
TT
Worry not, it was irony pure.
Only a lampoon of the mindset that quietly really DOES believe that stuff. And plenty of folks do...
I agree with the other contributers re. your remark re. Muslim's - overgeneralised and off-target. Otherwise power to your elbow m8
TT
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And to a Baptist, the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. Fundamentalist religious nuts are dangerous, no matter which religion. More human beings have been murdered in the name of Christ than for any other reason. Christian bigots, aka Crusaders, started this whole religious war centuries ago, and unfortunately it's not going away, as long as there are fundies around.
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I'm with PPF#1 on the 11th September stuff, but I have to side with others on the 'all Muslims are extremists' thing - religion is all about interpretation. If you doubt this, here's a situation I personally run into on an almost weekly basis: how many Christians do you know who think that being gay is 'wrong because the bible says so', but who would say that stoning your neighbour to death for working on the sabbath is 'not applicable to modern times'. Try asking a fundamental Christian whether taking the inhabitants of a neighbouring country as slaves is still ok!
Every religion has its freaks and idiots. Remember the uproar about the Mohammed cartoons? Check out the current debate and outcry about a cartoon series lampooning the Catholic faith!
I know Muslim folk who are happy to co-exist with other faiths; they're happy to debate points of doctrine etc., but they're absolutely against violence, and completely disassociate themselves from religious terrorism.
Don't get me wrong, there are some things associated with the Muslim faith that I'm not exactly ecstatic about (role of women, homophobia), but the more I look into these, the more convinced I am that they're more interpretation issues than underlying doctrine. I also recognise the right of other people to believe in fairy tales, so long as they don't try to inflict their beliefs on me. As do many of my religious friends, come to that.
Every religion has its freaks and idiots. Remember the uproar about the Mohammed cartoons? Check out the current debate and outcry about a cartoon series lampooning the Catholic faith!
I know Muslim folk who are happy to co-exist with other faiths; they're happy to debate points of doctrine etc., but they're absolutely against violence, and completely disassociate themselves from religious terrorism.
Don't get me wrong, there are some things associated with the Muslim faith that I'm not exactly ecstatic about (role of women, homophobia), but the more I look into these, the more convinced I am that they're more interpretation issues than underlying doctrine. I also recognise the right of other people to believe in fairy tales, so long as they don't try to inflict their beliefs on me. As do many of my religious friends, come to that.