R22 & R44 blade delamination
It does have the potential to disrupt a big industry particularly considering that all the Sidney Kidmans' are on their heals and ready to race after what has been a pleasant reprieve after the last 8 years or so. A wet season like this will be beneficial not only this year but for a few to come also.
Considering the repurcussions of a "grounding" I don't think that will happen. It would be more likely that a SB will be issued stating additional attention to the blade roots during daily inspections with diagrams and measurements etc. followed up by an AD from CASA somewhere in the second round!
It could turn to **** for a few that actually find a delam.
Robinson really need to sort their blade issues out.
You might have to ferry a few of those 47's north and get in amongst it old school if the worst were to happen.
topendtorque
If that 12E story is true than old mate is the stupidest and most precise man with a hacksaw I have ever heard of. Not to mention fit, with f$#@en good blades.
Considering the repurcussions of a "grounding" I don't think that will happen. It would be more likely that a SB will be issued stating additional attention to the blade roots during daily inspections with diagrams and measurements etc. followed up by an AD from CASA somewhere in the second round!
It could turn to **** for a few that actually find a delam.
Robinson really need to sort their blade issues out.
You might have to ferry a few of those 47's north and get in amongst it old school if the worst were to happen.
topendtorque
If that 12E story is true than old mate is the stupidest and most precise man with a hacksaw I have ever heard of. Not to mention fit, with f$#@en good blades.
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Bellfest
he was one strange character, history doesn't say how many hack saw blades. I have had a go at 47 blades and gave up up in favor of an electric driven power hacksaw. where the gent is now I don't know, at other times he had a penchant for flying around the outback with a 44 gallon drum on one litter half full of rocks and geiger counters and on the other, one half full of fuel, the cabin had his gear, several drums of oil and him -- usually giggling!!
True story. A happy chappy. and people ask on these threads about mustering jobs!!!
Let's face it the 12E was built like the proverbial, i've only a few hours in them but you're right the paddles should have sailed off into the blue for sure. ask mr Imabell about him, i reckon he would have known him-- and his previous employers.
mr selfish
Yes you are spot on, we should not talk about one of their AD's on the same machine last episode should we. However insurance rules the roost and sooner rather than later those turkeys as well had better start playing the game.
he was one strange character, history doesn't say how many hack saw blades. I have had a go at 47 blades and gave up up in favor of an electric driven power hacksaw. where the gent is now I don't know, at other times he had a penchant for flying around the outback with a 44 gallon drum on one litter half full of rocks and geiger counters and on the other, one half full of fuel, the cabin had his gear, several drums of oil and him -- usually giggling!!
True story. A happy chappy. and people ask on these threads about mustering jobs!!!
Let's face it the 12E was built like the proverbial, i've only a few hours in them but you're right the paddles should have sailed off into the blue for sure. ask mr Imabell about him, i reckon he would have known him-- and his previous employers.
mr selfish
Yes you are spot on, we should not talk about one of their AD's on the same machine last episode should we. However insurance rules the roost and sooner rather than later those turkeys as well had better start playing the game.
Thanks to imabell
I help run one of the Robbie safety courses in Oz and NZ. One thing I have noticed over the past 13 years (1,500 studnets) is that we are all reluctant to report defects.
Being out in the bush, or away from our friendly man with the spanners in the workshop. Maybe we don't know how to?
Sometimes a class will tell us all about a series of problems, unknown away from their hangar floor. If CASA, CAA NZ, ATSB, Robinson, etc are not told about bugs that appear from time to time, then we tend to find out in a fatal.
The saga of the R22 blade failures was known well in advance, it took some fatals to bring it into focus. No one talked to each other, and the vital clues slipped away as simply a "one off" fault.
Half the Oz fleet are Robinsons. Mustering drivers fly more hours than anyone else. Beef prices have never been better, according to some, so we cannot afford to have our fleet grounded just as the mustering seasons starts, being delayed by the four cyclones.
I congratule imabell for bringing this to our attention. If any one else is finding a recurring problem, just PM me and I will try and pass it onto to someone who may be able to help.
We must work together, there are too many jobs at risk - let alone lives. Apart from my these problems, the Robbies are very safe if flown to their limits - and no more!
Maybe whacking a 360 cubic inch (180HP) into the airframe to relace the 320 (160HP) rubber band without beefing up the airframe has caused these problems?
It is even more importnat than ever to not overload the hard working and reliable machine.
Thanks again to imabell.
Being out in the bush, or away from our friendly man with the spanners in the workshop. Maybe we don't know how to?
Sometimes a class will tell us all about a series of problems, unknown away from their hangar floor. If CASA, CAA NZ, ATSB, Robinson, etc are not told about bugs that appear from time to time, then we tend to find out in a fatal.
The saga of the R22 blade failures was known well in advance, it took some fatals to bring it into focus. No one talked to each other, and the vital clues slipped away as simply a "one off" fault.
Half the Oz fleet are Robinsons. Mustering drivers fly more hours than anyone else. Beef prices have never been better, according to some, so we cannot afford to have our fleet grounded just as the mustering seasons starts, being delayed by the four cyclones.
I congratule imabell for bringing this to our attention. If any one else is finding a recurring problem, just PM me and I will try and pass it onto to someone who may be able to help.
We must work together, there are too many jobs at risk - let alone lives. Apart from my these problems, the Robbies are very safe if flown to their limits - and no more!
Maybe whacking a 360 cubic inch (180HP) into the airframe to relace the 320 (160HP) rubber band without beefing up the airframe has caused these problems?
It is even more importnat than ever to not overload the hard working and reliable machine.
Thanks again to imabell.
The blades should be designed to take anything that aircraft weight can throw at them to be able to cope with aerodynamic loads.
Would it be fair to say that if an engine was to cause delamination due to too much torque it would be a very impressive machine performance wise? They are pretty good but not that good.
With the R22 teetering and flappimg head this would be reduced even more so.
You could suspect spindell damage as operational but not delam. It is a very sterile procedure and it wouldn't take a lot to have in inferior batch
Now, flapping in the breeze while shutdown could be a contributor. The stress in that particular area may be more so without any centrifugal force. Much more likely than overpitching I would think.
Would it be fair to say that if an engine was to cause delamination due to too much torque it would be a very impressive machine performance wise? They are pretty good but not that good.
With the R22 teetering and flappimg head this would be reduced even more so.
You could suspect spindell damage as operational but not delam. It is a very sterile procedure and it wouldn't take a lot to have in inferior batch
Now, flapping in the breeze while shutdown could be a contributor. The stress in that particular area may be more so without any centrifugal force. Much more likely than overpitching I would think.
Mr Selfish
You are spot on.
Since the R22 HP model took the power to 160 HP from 150 HP the weight was kept at 1300 lbs. Aim was to get better high altitude performance, not to overboost or go out too heavy.
As there was a need to carry a bit more, the Alpha went to 1370 lbs. Limit was still 124 HP.
The limit since the Beta was introduced has always been 131 HP for takeoff - limit five minutes.
Then max cruise using 124 HP.
The bigger 180 HP engine was to provide even better high altitude performance. The power falls away as you climb up to a mountain top.
It is a derated engine by RPM and MAP. The placard says it all!
I was watching that now famous NZ video on the R22 and noted the powere settings recorded by the camera. Bit scary I thought.
All we have to do is keep within the limits.
The old farts who say "if it can hover" it is OK. Do they really understand that metal has memory?
One industry icon recently told me that he gets going by turning off the governor, overspeeding the rotor, overboosting MAP as it struggles through TL, then governor back on.
When asked how heavy he was - with two big guys, full fuel, a rifle, ammo, seats full, etc.
His answer said it all: "Dunno"
Since the R22 HP model took the power to 160 HP from 150 HP the weight was kept at 1300 lbs. Aim was to get better high altitude performance, not to overboost or go out too heavy.
As there was a need to carry a bit more, the Alpha went to 1370 lbs. Limit was still 124 HP.
The limit since the Beta was introduced has always been 131 HP for takeoff - limit five minutes.
Then max cruise using 124 HP.
The bigger 180 HP engine was to provide even better high altitude performance. The power falls away as you climb up to a mountain top.
It is a derated engine by RPM and MAP. The placard says it all!
I was watching that now famous NZ video on the R22 and noted the powere settings recorded by the camera. Bit scary I thought.
All we have to do is keep within the limits.
The old farts who say "if it can hover" it is OK. Do they really understand that metal has memory?
One industry icon recently told me that he gets going by turning off the governor, overspeeding the rotor, overboosting MAP as it struggles through TL, then governor back on.
When asked how heavy he was - with two big guys, full fuel, a rifle, ammo, seats full, etc.
His answer said it all: "Dunno"
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is weight an issue?
If a heavy aircraft puts undue stress on the blades, what happens when the pilot does a steep turn - 2g, or even more. I am yet to see a flight manual (that I can remember) having a positive g limit for helicopters. 50 kg overloaded is nothing compared to a 1450 kg jetranger pulling 2.5g - 3625 kg and more.
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[QUOTE=TwinHueyMan]We get "delamination" at the roots of the blades on our Blackhawks fairly frequently (right at the very inside of the blade, where the root meets the blade for the first time) -- the prop and rotor guys put a bit of pro-seal and spray-paint on it and call it fixed until it shows up again.
Gee's I didn't know that Pro Seal could be used to fix rotor blades. Sort of like the hot glue gun fix an old employer use to do on his run out rotor blades. I myself would be real reluctant to fly any machine so repaired. Band aid fixes will kill you if you give ithem a chance to. What are the Tech rep's saying is the problem and the fix?
I don't have anytime in the R-22 to speak of, it seems to me that this has been an on going problem for the Robinson. Seems to me that its an very expensive helicotper for what you really get.
Gee's I didn't know that Pro Seal could be used to fix rotor blades. Sort of like the hot glue gun fix an old employer use to do on his run out rotor blades. I myself would be real reluctant to fly any machine so repaired. Band aid fixes will kill you if you give ithem a chance to. What are the Tech rep's saying is the problem and the fix?
I don't have anytime in the R-22 to speak of, it seems to me that this has been an on going problem for the Robinson. Seems to me that its an very expensive helicotper for what you really get.
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you'll find the video here www.videosouth.com it is titled 'the robinson R22.'
I have no pecuniary interest in the outfit. you will find the vis is excellent.
The aurals are also 'very' interesting, like -'its got 180 horsepower!!'
George S
Yes there was a major problem with the original blades;
-1's- low inertia and a quality control prob which snuffed out a swedish guy that trained with me at Air-Log;
-2's had better inertia- well they did to any of us that had flown -1's where it was reef at the bottom and whoosh became whhhhoooooshhh in a about three revs. -2's also had a creeping corrosion prob interrelated with a structure prob but really most of the failures they had would not have happened if the players had stuck to the rules;
-3's never hit the stands;
-4's that we now have are showing a debonding at the outboard end of the doubler. as per imabell's original post
so far our info is that there are 4 in OZ, 2 in US (one from canada) and a suggestion of 2 from NZ. serial #s as far as we know in the 1000 to 1100 and age from 330 to 780hrs and yes, it may end up costing several arms and legs.
I have no pecuniary interest in the outfit. you will find the vis is excellent.
The aurals are also 'very' interesting, like -'its got 180 horsepower!!'
George S
Yes there was a major problem with the original blades;
-1's- low inertia and a quality control prob which snuffed out a swedish guy that trained with me at Air-Log;
-2's had better inertia- well they did to any of us that had flown -1's where it was reef at the bottom and whoosh became whhhhoooooshhh in a about three revs. -2's also had a creeping corrosion prob interrelated with a structure prob but really most of the failures they had would not have happened if the players had stuck to the rules;
-3's never hit the stands;
-4's that we now have are showing a debonding at the outboard end of the doubler. as per imabell's original post
so far our info is that there are 4 in OZ, 2 in US (one from canada) and a suggestion of 2 from NZ. serial #s as far as we know in the 1000 to 1100 and age from 330 to 780hrs and yes, it may end up costing several arms and legs.
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Goodbye R22's ?
As a former mustering pilot with a few hours in 22's I was quite sad to hear the "rumour" that Frank is not going to make the 22 any more. Apparently he is going to concentrate on the 44's and the elusive R66 (turbine). Has anyone else heard this? I know someone who is going to Torrance soon and says he will find out, i'll let you know what they say....
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Yes I did a Robbie saftey course with Tim Tucker (R22 test pilot) and he said that the factory has an Airframe that they are testing but are not happy with the powerplant, So Frank has given Allison/Rolls Royce a lot of money to come up with a hybrid C20/C30 engine (C25?)to power the beasty, He is also in negotiations with Mercedes Benz about designing a diesel specifically for the R66 as an option.
By the way that saftey course was the best $600 i've spent on flying, But if you do it make sure it is taken by a factory test pilot like Tim - I learnt so much about the designs of other types as well
By the way that saftey course was the best $600 i've spent on flying, But if you do it make sure it is taken by a factory test pilot like Tim - I learnt so much about the designs of other types as well
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casa has looked at one of the blades now and tells us that not only has it delaminated on the bottom doubler but on the top as well even though we could not see it.
there has been only one defect report submitted to casa even though there are several instances of similar delamination. i have no idea why this is not reported by the relevant engineers even though the blades have been sent back to the factory for replacement.
casa is going to write to all operatotrs and explain the situation and get everyone to inspect their blades. we don't know if it will become an ad.
maybe it was one batch, maybe, just maybe. do they make batches?????
there has been only one defect report submitted to casa even though there are several instances of similar delamination. i have no idea why this is not reported by the relevant engineers even though the blades have been sent back to the factory for replacement.
casa is going to write to all operatotrs and explain the situation and get everyone to inspect their blades. we don't know if it will become an ad.
maybe it was one batch, maybe, just maybe. do they make batches?????
Report those defects!!!!!!
imabell is spot on here!
As per my post of 22 Apr - you must make sure the "system" is advised.
Then the regulators and the makers can see what is actually happening in the fleet.
Better paperwork now, than a funeral later!
Help the system to help you.
As per my post of 22 Apr - you must make sure the "system" is advised.
Then the regulators and the makers can see what is actually happening in the fleet.
Better paperwork now, than a funeral later!
Help the system to help you.
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Just thought I'd bring this topic up again, see if there is anything new on this important issue ... any more cases, has RHC or any national CAA made any statements ?