The end of military SAR?
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SAR - Mail on Sunday
If anyone saw the article in the mail on sunday about the government cutbacks (dont start!) to the military to cut Search and rescue crews from the army and privatise the system, and possibly sell off to bistows (who another thread says may be pulling out) or CHC helicopters - well a couple of questions:
1) To anyone in the know - How much harder would this make employment for civil UK commercial pilots looking for such a job? Wont a big company like CHC be able to easily recruit pilots for Search and rescue and put "wannabes" out of the Job?
2) To anyone who read the article dont you think this was a bit harsh: "A veteran RAF helicopter pilot said: when its a force 8 gale in the atlantic...this is not when you want some young pilot you have just trained up to be making decisions"
Im sorry but if this chap had his way - No young pilots would come through in this industry!
Many helicopter pilots tend to be the same - and as a young ATPL (H) trainee, I have tremendous respect for those in a job such as search and rescue, but that is just a real ARROGANT comment from someone in a place many of us would just love to be! I expect he came through the military and those with a similar view came through civil aviation?
MADY
(do NOT let this turn into a civil vs military thread)
1) To anyone in the know - How much harder would this make employment for civil UK commercial pilots looking for such a job? Wont a big company like CHC be able to easily recruit pilots for Search and rescue and put "wannabes" out of the Job?
2) To anyone who read the article dont you think this was a bit harsh: "A veteran RAF helicopter pilot said: when its a force 8 gale in the atlantic...this is not when you want some young pilot you have just trained up to be making decisions"
Im sorry but if this chap had his way - No young pilots would come through in this industry!
Many helicopter pilots tend to be the same - and as a young ATPL (H) trainee, I have tremendous respect for those in a job such as search and rescue, but that is just a real ARROGANT comment from someone in a place many of us would just love to be! I expect he came through the military and those with a similar view came through civil aviation?
MADY
(do NOT let this turn into a civil vs military thread)
g-mady
"but that is just a real ARROGANT comment”
If you think talking with a lot of sense and with the basis of experience is arrogant then you are in the wrong job and will have little success in progressing in our industry.
Nobody in there right mind would put "some young pilot you have just trained up" in the RHS of a SAR helicopter either mil or civil. Most SAR commanders come with a wealth of experience either from other operations or after serving in the LHS of a SAR Helicopter.
On SAR, things can go from bad to worse very quickly and you need to have the experience to cope with that. You also have to be completely at home flying the helicopter as all your capacity should be focused on the rescue. It is not the place for a brand new wannabee.
"I’m sorry but if this chap had his way - No young pilots would come through in this industry!"
What utter nonsense. He has just correctly stated the obvious and now you twist his words to mean something different. We all know that the industry needs new blood to replace those of us nearing retirement but they need to be nurtured and mentored to turn into the consummate professional that we all want to be.
HF
"but that is just a real ARROGANT comment”
If you think talking with a lot of sense and with the basis of experience is arrogant then you are in the wrong job and will have little success in progressing in our industry.
Nobody in there right mind would put "some young pilot you have just trained up" in the RHS of a SAR helicopter either mil or civil. Most SAR commanders come with a wealth of experience either from other operations or after serving in the LHS of a SAR Helicopter.
On SAR, things can go from bad to worse very quickly and you need to have the experience to cope with that. You also have to be completely at home flying the helicopter as all your capacity should be focused on the rescue. It is not the place for a brand new wannabee.
"I’m sorry but if this chap had his way - No young pilots would come through in this industry!"
What utter nonsense. He has just correctly stated the obvious and now you twist his words to mean something different. We all know that the industry needs new blood to replace those of us nearing retirement but they need to be nurtured and mentored to turn into the consummate professional that we all want to be.
HF
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Hummingfrog,
I completly see that - dont get me wrong of course I see experience as vital- its just that in the context of the article, how can a young pilot get from zero to hero, it takes flying hours to build vital experience. But you have to have been there and done it, as the article says "when the older pilots retire" then what?
Please dont missunderstand - I absolutley see that experience is a lifesaver and a wonderful thing to have for a search and rescue team but new pilots must come into the game, and with the whole system possibly being privatised then what?
(oh dear - I hope this thread doesn't continue down this trend!)
MADY
I completly see that - dont get me wrong of course I see experience as vital- its just that in the context of the article, how can a young pilot get from zero to hero, it takes flying hours to build vital experience. But you have to have been there and done it, as the article says "when the older pilots retire" then what?
Please dont missunderstand - I absolutley see that experience is a lifesaver and a wonderful thing to have for a search and rescue team but new pilots must come into the game, and with the whole system possibly being privatised then what?
(oh dear - I hope this thread doesn't continue down this trend!)
MADY
No one really knows what will happen in the new contract. Current thinking is that a significant military aircrew presence will remain. Civilian SAR tends to be crewed by the more experienced pilots. Funnily enough, the RAF crews, in some circumstances, are less experienced than their civilian counterparts (although there are also lots of RAF crews with huge amounts of experience). However, the younger ones make up for this to a certain extent with a large amount of training.
If (and it's a big if) the entire system was to go civilian there would be two effects. There would probably be a not insignificant number of military SAR aircrew looking for jobs in the new system. However, there will also be a lot more civilian SAR jobs. What the overall effect would be I cannot tell.
The comment from the RAF pilot (if anywhere near accurate) is not very well made but the sentiment is there. Obviously, everyone has to start somewhere, however there is a big difference between an ATPL pilot flying an R22 or Squirrel, and flying a S61 or S92 sized helicopter in atrocious weather. It goes without saying that the crews have to be experienced. This is not a problem that only affects civilian crews. From my understanding most of Bristow's pilots are either ex-military or have a lot of experience flying S61's in rig type work. I know a lot of the Bond Jigsaw pilots are ex-military.
The fact is that there are civilian SAR pilots out there with no military experience. If that is what you want to do, I wouldn't be put off by the scaremongering in the papers.
If (and it's a big if) the entire system was to go civilian there would be two effects. There would probably be a not insignificant number of military SAR aircrew looking for jobs in the new system. However, there will also be a lot more civilian SAR jobs. What the overall effect would be I cannot tell.
The comment from the RAF pilot (if anywhere near accurate) is not very well made but the sentiment is there. Obviously, everyone has to start somewhere, however there is a big difference between an ATPL pilot flying an R22 or Squirrel, and flying a S61 or S92 sized helicopter in atrocious weather. It goes without saying that the crews have to be experienced. This is not a problem that only affects civilian crews. From my understanding most of Bristow's pilots are either ex-military or have a lot of experience flying S61's in rig type work. I know a lot of the Bond Jigsaw pilots are ex-military.
The fact is that there are civilian SAR pilots out there with no military experience. If that is what you want to do, I wouldn't be put off by the scaremongering in the papers.
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This subject has been done to bits but...
I'm a stated advocate of the current SAR arrangement, but 2 points above are well made.
Namely, SAR Bloke's comments that the civ's are often more experienced than the mil (natch - coz they're almost all ex-mil). Secondly that whoever runs the contract ain't gonna be taking some R22 jock with 150hrs.
My issue is merely that it's inevitable that the experience levels will drop in due course, once the ex-mils have withered on the vine. A pedigree civvy pilot cannot, with the best will in the world, have the depth of experience a mil driver could have. At that point the quality of service will drop. However, whether that means much is the question. Any service is better than none.
Before too many civ's start trying to nail me to the cross, I fully acknowledge that there are many excellent civ drivers out there, often doing some very crunchy stuff, in physical and commercial conditions that would make us military types wince.
I'm a stated advocate of the current SAR arrangement, but 2 points above are well made.
Namely, SAR Bloke's comments that the civ's are often more experienced than the mil (natch - coz they're almost all ex-mil). Secondly that whoever runs the contract ain't gonna be taking some R22 jock with 150hrs.
My issue is merely that it's inevitable that the experience levels will drop in due course, once the ex-mils have withered on the vine. A pedigree civvy pilot cannot, with the best will in the world, have the depth of experience a mil driver could have. At that point the quality of service will drop. However, whether that means much is the question. Any service is better than none.
Before too many civ's start trying to nail me to the cross, I fully acknowledge that there are many excellent civ drivers out there, often doing some very crunchy stuff, in physical and commercial conditions that would make us military types wince.
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Mail On Sunday - instant loss of credibility
When you headline the fact that "the Coastguard helicopters will be taken over and civilianised" it makes you wonder about how much homework they have done given that they are already civilianised. Not only that but the two contenders from overseas are hardly newcomers to the SAR world in the British Isles!
Another misinformed briefing from the MoD duffers who see their PR baby sailing over the horizon.
As a taxpayer I am more than happy that we will not have to pay for a nuclear bomb-proof Sea King with a fraction of the serviceability to go plodding round our coastline at 110 kts...... and because I've been there I know that the comments made about young military pilots are absolutely right. Everybody has to do their first SAR tour and in the old days you didn't have a co-pilots position to go makey-learning in. The Wessex SAR boys did it cold-turkey - well almost. But they were well trained and good enough to do the job. It can often be forgotten that the crutch a new SAR pilot needs most is a good crewie. Now, where are they coming from??
G
Another misinformed briefing from the MoD duffers who see their PR baby sailing over the horizon.
As a taxpayer I am more than happy that we will not have to pay for a nuclear bomb-proof Sea King with a fraction of the serviceability to go plodding round our coastline at 110 kts...... and because I've been there I know that the comments made about young military pilots are absolutely right. Everybody has to do their first SAR tour and in the old days you didn't have a co-pilots position to go makey-learning in. The Wessex SAR boys did it cold-turkey - well almost. But they were well trained and good enough to do the job. It can often be forgotten that the crutch a new SAR pilot needs most is a good crewie. Now, where are they coming from??
G
Hi Geoffers
How is Brazil?? Hot and steamy
Don't know where you got your nuclear bomb proof Seaking from - ours were hardly water proof
Life offshore is coming to an end so it is back to radial following - though if a nice position came up at Lossie there may be a few years left in me. Though memories of night mountain flying in a snow storms may change my mind.
HF
How is Brazil?? Hot and steamy
Don't know where you got your nuclear bomb proof Seaking from - ours were hardly water proof
Life offshore is coming to an end so it is back to radial following - though if a nice position came up at Lossie there may be a few years left in me. Though memories of night mountain flying in a snow storms may change my mind.
HF
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Life on the roaring 40s
HF
I seem to remember that they explained the enormous cost of a simple UHF radio was down to the development work required to make it resistant to the electro-magnetic pulse that results from a nuclear bomb going off!
I'll pm you about the work situation
G
I seem to remember that they explained the enormous cost of a simple UHF radio was down to the development work required to make it resistant to the electro-magnetic pulse that results from a nuclear bomb going off!
I'll pm you about the work situation
G
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SAR
It is rumoured that the Govt will announce plans to centralise/privatise UK SAR operations.
Will everyone on board have to provide a credit card before rescue or will the airlines add a rescue surcharge to the ticket price?
Will the proposed Blair One be Civil or Military registered?
Tongue in cheek
Opinions?
Will everyone on board have to provide a credit card before rescue or will the airlines add a rescue surcharge to the ticket price?
Will the proposed Blair One be Civil or Military registered?
Tongue in cheek
Opinions?
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It's been discussed by an MOD/HMCG working group for a long while now.
SAR Helicopter Harmonisation
SAR Helicopter Harmonisation
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Experience..... Some RAF pilots gain command of a SAR aircraft after only 18 months SAR experience and some of these pilots are on their first tour. I dont see civvy pilots being given command in 18 months do you?
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How did the RAF cope before they haad NVG? NVG only came in earnest in the last part of the 80's/early nineties so the Sea Kings and Wessex had been ploughing around for a long time before NVG - quite sucessfully too. The rules will eventually allow civvy SAR crews to fly using NVG to the same extent that the mil do now. It's just a matter of time. It will probably be that the mil will retain an element of the new crew composition so they will be there to set and maintain the standard of NVG flying that the regulators will require. From then on the civvy crews will gain the necessary experience and the rest will be history with the experience base being transferred.
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RAF Sumburgh?
Overheard on BBC Scotland this morning:
"There is concern that some [military] bases will be sold off, including Sumburgh"
nice to know that our media are so well informed.
OA
"There is concern that some [military] bases will be sold off, including Sumburgh"
nice to know that our media are so well informed.
OA
Geoffers mentions good SAR crewmen. In my first month of SAR command, (Mallardpi; on the Wessex, where you had command after 0 months SAR experience!) I was out in the bay with just the MALM winchie on board, practising drum circuits.
During each circuits he looked up from the cabin to check my accuracy. He was not happy and told me so; I wasn't nailing the figures (60kt, 150ft) to his satisfaction!
I made some comment about who was captain.
I was 'requested' to leave the drum (our winching target) to fly an orbit at 500ft.
Winchie climbed up into LHS. He asked me to reposition in the hover with the drum just visible in front of us.
He requested control and held a rock steady hover. He suggested I called the clock codes on the drum during a standard circuit. He then flew a totally accurate circuit back to the hover.
We climbed up to 500ft, he returned to the cabin and we then descended to the drum to continue with my practice.
During each circuits he looked up from the cabin to check my accuracy. He was not happy and told me so; I wasn't nailing the figures (60kt, 150ft) to his satisfaction!
I made some comment about who was captain.
I was 'requested' to leave the drum (our winching target) to fly an orbit at 500ft.
Winchie climbed up into LHS. He asked me to reposition in the hover with the drum just visible in front of us.
He requested control and held a rock steady hover. He suggested I called the clock codes on the drum during a standard circuit. He then flew a totally accurate circuit back to the hover.
We climbed up to 500ft, he returned to the cabin and we then descended to the drum to continue with my practice.
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Good point mallardpi
Can not the same have been said a few years ago when the Civ's had Flir and we didn't.
It took us over 20 years after they had it to add Flir to the Seaking. I bet it won't take em as long to get the go ahead for NVG's.
But then do they need em think I'm right in saying they have a s61n from Stornoway flogging around the mountains at night and managing very well without em. Bit like what we did before we had nvg's
Can not the same have been said a few years ago when the Civ's had Flir and we didn't.
It took us over 20 years after they had it to add Flir to the Seaking. I bet it won't take em as long to get the go ahead for NVG's.
But then do they need em think I'm right in saying they have a s61n from Stornoway flogging around the mountains at night and managing very well without em.
Bit like what we did before we had nvg's
I think I can speak for most NVG experienced pilots here....to be flogging around the mountains of Scotland...the Rassay Sound and other places at night without NVG's when NVG's are available....is plain stupid. To deny that techology to a SAR crew is really beyond belief and explanation.
I can attest to how dark it gets in that area having lived in Broadford years ago flying that patch of water.
I can attest to how dark it gets in that area having lived in Broadford years ago flying that patch of water.
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Originally Posted by Nov71
.
Will everyone on board have to provide a credit card before rescue or will the airlines add a rescue surcharge to the ticket price?
Tongue in cheek
Opinions?
Will everyone on board have to provide a credit card before rescue or will the airlines add a rescue surcharge to the ticket price?
Tongue in cheek
Opinions?
The civ's have been providing SAR like us for well over 25 years and not one Credit card has been asked for.
so Why say it.
If they can do it Cheaper with a better serviceability record than the Seaking (which is bad) I say let em have a go
After all even Military aircrew will be wanting a job outside oneday even Me
SAR has been done for many years with what kit was available, whether in a Whirlwind without a second engine, NVG or FLIR and the ability to just about lift the skin off a rice pudding or a Sea King with all sorts of kit and masses of power - but what cannot be denied is that as the technology has improved, so has the capability and the safety.
How many posters here are actually in current front line RAF SAR and know what the capabilities of the Mk3 and 3A are - not what they might have been 5 or 10 years ago.
Unless you have used our FLIR/MSS - you won't know what a leap in technology it is over the MCA kit - it may have taken 20 years to get it but it was worth the wait.
Regardless of who ends up running UKSAR, there can't afford to be a reduction in capability - neither the MCA or the govt will sanction that, so one way or another either the military will still be involved or the civvy SAR will have to raise their game.
How many posters here are actually in current front line RAF SAR and know what the capabilities of the Mk3 and 3A are - not what they might have been 5 or 10 years ago.
Unless you have used our FLIR/MSS - you won't know what a leap in technology it is over the MCA kit - it may have taken 20 years to get it but it was worth the wait.
Regardless of who ends up running UKSAR, there can't afford to be a reduction in capability - neither the MCA or the govt will sanction that, so one way or another either the military will still be involved or the civvy SAR will have to raise their game.