PC Plod delivers notam personally!
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Evidence is changed routinely and I know this from a current serving officer. He believes it is doing a public service to help the courts obtain convictions so his motives may be good...but it is dishonest.
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Daft bat
Yes, I agree I don’t want to start a red herring here, but this goes on all the time. I used to completely agree with fitting up some scum that has robbed and beaten up an old lady etc, but now my view has changed to some extent. However if the motive of the officer is correct then perhaps he has a point. If he doesn’t get a conviction…who will be the next victim?
But then a culture of lying develops and then where do you draw the line?
I have some background knowledge on the workings on the IPCC and Standards, and I am quite sure my comments/ complaints would serve no purpose. The Police do protect themselves and the IPCC have no teeth whatsoever.
Another one, chasing a stolen car...and having crashed into it causing serious injury. The rather senior officer in the back suggested the other driver hit them in reverse. This was not true but this is how it was reported!
Events like happen all the time, every day. No one is very interested in letters/ complaints. The other day, one paper advised that the police would only respond to homophobic and racism, burglary and assault were not considered important enough.
The point I am making is not criticism of the Police, but rather caution in ignoring a warning. Personally I go for the easy option…go fly another day.
As far as making reports to police re corruption, suggest you read “Untouchables, dirty cops, bent justice and racism in Scotland yard”
You will not change anything and will only expose your self to agro!
Yes, I agree I don’t want to start a red herring here, but this goes on all the time. I used to completely agree with fitting up some scum that has robbed and beaten up an old lady etc, but now my view has changed to some extent. However if the motive of the officer is correct then perhaps he has a point. If he doesn’t get a conviction…who will be the next victim?
But then a culture of lying develops and then where do you draw the line?
I have some background knowledge on the workings on the IPCC and Standards, and I am quite sure my comments/ complaints would serve no purpose. The Police do protect themselves and the IPCC have no teeth whatsoever.
Another one, chasing a stolen car...and having crashed into it causing serious injury. The rather senior officer in the back suggested the other driver hit them in reverse. This was not true but this is how it was reported!
Events like happen all the time, every day. No one is very interested in letters/ complaints. The other day, one paper advised that the police would only respond to homophobic and racism, burglary and assault were not considered important enough.
The point I am making is not criticism of the Police, but rather caution in ignoring a warning. Personally I go for the easy option…go fly another day.
As far as making reports to police re corruption, suggest you read “Untouchables, dirty cops, bent justice and racism in Scotland yard”
You will not change anything and will only expose your self to agro!
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Er.. yes, This is way off track. AA. What you suggest is a mile from the incident which started this thread.
In post 1 I asked 'What the hell is this country coming to?' The answer is not much has changed really.
I didnt understand why the police had come to visit me or why they had forbidden me to fly.
Thanks to the input on this thread, and elsewhere, a lot of it from police pilots and police, I now understand a lot more and am reassured that it was a slightly dirty way of tidying up a loose end caused by a simple mistake, probably high up in the command chain, setting the TRA.
The PCs who came were simply doing the job they were sent to do. They clearly knew very little about aviation and had probably been sent to advise me of the TRA and make sure I didnt fly. They almost certainly were not expecting me to argue and when I did, they raised the stakes to get the job done. When they left I was still determined to fly and told them so. They will have reported this back to their superior. Maybe my insistance led to the OTT security outside my house. Maybe I was perceived as a threat to CR. These things I will never know.
But i'm pretty damn sure it aint the end of society as I know it. Nor is it wholesale police corruption.
In this instance nobody died. I drove to the pub instead.
edit for spelling, Oh and to add I still think someone should have their knuckles rapped.
In post 1 I asked 'What the hell is this country coming to?' The answer is not much has changed really.
I didnt understand why the police had come to visit me or why they had forbidden me to fly.
Thanks to the input on this thread, and elsewhere, a lot of it from police pilots and police, I now understand a lot more and am reassured that it was a slightly dirty way of tidying up a loose end caused by a simple mistake, probably high up in the command chain, setting the TRA.
The PCs who came were simply doing the job they were sent to do. They clearly knew very little about aviation and had probably been sent to advise me of the TRA and make sure I didnt fly. They almost certainly were not expecting me to argue and when I did, they raised the stakes to get the job done. When they left I was still determined to fly and told them so. They will have reported this back to their superior. Maybe my insistance led to the OTT security outside my house. Maybe I was perceived as a threat to CR. These things I will never know.
But i'm pretty damn sure it aint the end of society as I know it. Nor is it wholesale police corruption.
In this instance nobody died. I drove to the pub instead.
edit for spelling, Oh and to add I still think someone should have their knuckles rapped.
Last edited by Gaseous; 3rd Apr 2006 at 23:10.
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Notam delivered by plod
Edited because of National Security.
Man if i hear the word SECURITY i will scream
MD
Man if i hear the word SECURITY i will scream
MD
Last edited by MD900 Explorer; 4th Apr 2006 at 17:30.
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Originally Posted by Autostart Abort
Gaseaus
I regret to say you did the right thing. If they so wished, you could be seriously stitched up with great ease. My view is that was a threat, no doubt.
Although the majority of Police are honest individuals, in time they can become corrupted simply because they are coloured by the company they keep!
For example, a previous Met Commissioner said corruption is beyond repair in the police force!
The Police force from my experience is institutionally corrupt, procedures exist within police which are designed to assist police corruption and dishonesty. The result being that if these characters are cowboys, they can easily fit you up if required.
Anyone with half a brain cell is aware that time and time again police falsify evidence to fit honest citizens up, one way or another they will screw you if they want to and there is no one to police the police.
Therefore it is not worth chancing it. You have no way of knowing if these two characters are decent like the majority or police officers..or not.
Lastly don’t bother writing to anyone as no one would give a toss!
We are sleepwalking into a rather unpleasant society and by the time anyone realises it will be too late!
I regret to say you did the right thing. If they so wished, you could be seriously stitched up with great ease. My view is that was a threat, no doubt.
Although the majority of Police are honest individuals, in time they can become corrupted simply because they are coloured by the company they keep!
For example, a previous Met Commissioner said corruption is beyond repair in the police force!
The Police force from my experience is institutionally corrupt, procedures exist within police which are designed to assist police corruption and dishonesty. The result being that if these characters are cowboys, they can easily fit you up if required.
Anyone with half a brain cell is aware that time and time again police falsify evidence to fit honest citizens up, one way or another they will screw you if they want to and there is no one to police the police.
Therefore it is not worth chancing it. You have no way of knowing if these two characters are decent like the majority or police officers..or not.
Lastly don’t bother writing to anyone as no one would give a toss!
We are sleepwalking into a rather unpleasant society and by the time anyone realises it will be too late!
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This has been a poorly handled situation by the authorities. I work just down the road at another Police Asu involved in this job. Let me throw a possible theory into the equation, this is my opinion only, not based on any fact. A few years ago, a certain president visited N Ireland with a small army of agents and security. This was MASSIVE and all before the current increased threat to US officials. In one incident, a SS agent stepped out onto an active runway with a commercial jet coming in to land at Belfast. He was uncertain if his 'principal' was far enough away, so he held up his hand to the jet and called into his radio 'send that plane away'. The jet went round!! My question: What would have happened if it continued??
The USSS are (rightly) terrified of an attack on a government official. They don't request TRAs, they TELL people what they will have. If they arrive and are not happy with arrangements, they will not mess around with talks, they will suggest that they may deal with it themselves. Heavy handed, maybe, but they look after their own. Although you probably had the right to fly, you did the absolute right thing by going to the pub.
As an aside, in the future give us a call or arrange a visit if you have any police v aviation problems. We often have disagreements with the bosses as well, so we know the correct people to talk to. At worst, you will get a free cup of coffee.
The USSS are (rightly) terrified of an attack on a government official. They don't request TRAs, they TELL people what they will have. If they arrive and are not happy with arrangements, they will not mess around with talks, they will suggest that they may deal with it themselves. Heavy handed, maybe, but they look after their own. Although you probably had the right to fly, you did the absolute right thing by going to the pub.
As an aside, in the future give us a call or arrange a visit if you have any police v aviation problems. We often have disagreements with the bosses as well, so we know the correct people to talk to. At worst, you will get a free cup of coffee.
There are no limits
And I have heard that it is the worst cup of coffee in England!
Interestingly, why did none of us leave aviation when we found out how corrupt and dishonest it all is?
Interestingly, why did none of us leave aviation when we found out how corrupt and dishonest it all is?
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I know of someone who recently left the police force due to their disgust when they realised just how corrupt it actually is.
I find it amusing this Police battering
Maybe some of you would put your trust in the Lawyers....they are decent and honest and would never never bend the rules at all.....
But then again it's easy to knock an institution isn't it....can't win if you do, can't win if you don't! Thankfully the majority of lawabiding people support the Police and obey the laws etc, thankfully the likes of Autosart are few and far between..otherwise what would the World come to???
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Volrider
You are mistaken, this is not "police battering". But you do need to wise up a little.
The simple fact is we do not live in a perfect world and although the UK is better than most, there is no such thing as perfect justice. We do not have a perfect government, police, CPS or court system. Go and have a look at the workings of the High Court – useless - unless you have a spare couple of million and even if you win there is no guarantee of receiving a payment from a court order.
Also you may one day notice, there is no perfect organisation in the UK of any sort, and the police are no exception. However it is a fact that a former commissioner said "Corruption was beyond repair in the Met" and many changes are desperately needed.
For that reason it is very unwise to suggest ignoring the warning of authorities. Just because you feel you are in the right and obeying all laws is no guarantee that you will not be screwed.
There are many countries far far worse than the UK. No country has a perfect system of Justice. Not even the UK.
The bottom line is, without wanting to be sidetracked again, just because you are in the right and you are breaking no law does not mean you will be in the clear.
In this case, without doubt the most sensible course of action was taken.
Ask yourself, what doI have to gain and what do I have to loose. Was the flight really that important? The downside potential is very high, simply not worth it.
If you are ever in a similar situation, I hope you make the right decision. Pause before you decide to challenge your right and ask yourself, is it really worth it? Do you really want to expose yourself to a whole lot of hassle? Best option is the easy option. Relax and go fly another day.
You are mistaken, this is not "police battering". But you do need to wise up a little.
The simple fact is we do not live in a perfect world and although the UK is better than most, there is no such thing as perfect justice. We do not have a perfect government, police, CPS or court system. Go and have a look at the workings of the High Court – useless - unless you have a spare couple of million and even if you win there is no guarantee of receiving a payment from a court order.
Also you may one day notice, there is no perfect organisation in the UK of any sort, and the police are no exception. However it is a fact that a former commissioner said "Corruption was beyond repair in the Met" and many changes are desperately needed.
For that reason it is very unwise to suggest ignoring the warning of authorities. Just because you feel you are in the right and obeying all laws is no guarantee that you will not be screwed.
There are many countries far far worse than the UK. No country has a perfect system of Justice. Not even the UK.
The bottom line is, without wanting to be sidetracked again, just because you are in the right and you are breaking no law does not mean you will be in the clear.
In this case, without doubt the most sensible course of action was taken.
Ask yourself, what doI have to gain and what do I have to loose. Was the flight really that important? The downside potential is very high, simply not worth it.
If you are ever in a similar situation, I hope you make the right decision. Pause before you decide to challenge your right and ask yourself, is it really worth it? Do you really want to expose yourself to a whole lot of hassle? Best option is the easy option. Relax and go fly another day.
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Originally Posted by Autostart Abort
However it is a fact that a former commissioner said "Corruption was beyond repair in the Met"
i take what your saying that you feel unfairly treated with regards to the TRA and it would be worthy of writing in a freindly way to the Chief of the police force involved and asking what the threat assessment levels were and why your address was deemed as worthy of a visit.
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The bottom line is, without wanting to be sidetracked again, just because you are in the right and you are breaking no law does not mean you will be in the clear.
, Gaseous,go on give the ASU at warton a ring I'm sure post event they may shed a bit of light on the situation for you.They'll probally welcome a fellow aviator with open arms
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Autostart Abort
You say:
"We do not have a perfect government, police, CPS or court system" and "there is no perfect organisation in the UK of any sort, and the police are no exception."
You're right of course.
The difference is no-one has rose-tinted views about politicians or lawyers.
FL
You say:
"We do not have a perfect government, police, CPS or court system" and "there is no perfect organisation in the UK of any sort, and the police are no exception."
You're right of course.
The difference is no-one has rose-tinted views about politicians or lawyers.
FL
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Originally Posted by Autostart Abort
Gaseaus
I regret to say you did the right thing. If they so wished, you could be seriously stitched up with great ease. My view is that was a threat, no doubt.
Although the majority of Police are honest individuals, in time they can become corrupted simply because they are coloured by the company they keep!
For example, a previous Met Commissioner said corruption is beyond repair in the police force!
The Police force from my experience is institutionally corrupt, procedures exist within police which are designed to assist police corruption and dishonesty. The result being that if these characters are cowboys, they can easily fit you up if required.
Anyone with half a brain cell is aware that time and time again police falsify evidence to fit honest citizens up, one way or another they will screw you if they want to and there is no one to police the police.
Therefore it is not worth chancing it. You have no way of knowing if these two characters are decent like the majority or police officers..or not.
Lastly don’t bother writing to anyone as no one would give a toss!
We are sleepwalking into a rather unpleasant society and by the time anyone realises it will be too late!
I regret to say you did the right thing. If they so wished, you could be seriously stitched up with great ease. My view is that was a threat, no doubt.
Although the majority of Police are honest individuals, in time they can become corrupted simply because they are coloured by the company they keep!
For example, a previous Met Commissioner said corruption is beyond repair in the police force!
The Police force from my experience is institutionally corrupt, procedures exist within police which are designed to assist police corruption and dishonesty. The result being that if these characters are cowboys, they can easily fit you up if required.
Anyone with half a brain cell is aware that time and time again police falsify evidence to fit honest citizens up, one way or another they will screw you if they want to and there is no one to police the police.
Therefore it is not worth chancing it. You have no way of knowing if these two characters are decent like the majority or police officers..or not.
Lastly don’t bother writing to anyone as no one would give a toss!
We are sleepwalking into a rather unpleasant society and by the time anyone realises it will be too late!
You clearly have no idea of the actual procedures that exist. If you're fed up with a dodgy Politician, fine. The rest of your post is, frankly, offensive!
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The difference is no-one has rose-tinted views about politicians or lawyers.
AA I think the Police service in this country is the finest, try going to some of the other countries around us and see what levels of corruption and disregard for peoples rights are like!
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Mlc
Change can only occur when the problems are realised. I am sure you would not believe that the UK police is perfect. Individuals come in all shapes and sizes and just because they join the police service does not automatically mean they are incorruptible. Do you really think that no evidence is suppressed by the police or no evidence is changed just a little? Do you really think no improvements are needed?
You expect me to answer in a short posting? Have a read of "Untouchables, dirty cops, bent justice and racism in scotland yard" written by a couple of Guardian journo's.
The book highlights that the list of victims of police misconduct is a long one. The number of police officers who have been prosecuted for such crimes is very low.
It is a very good read and the two authors were unflinchingly backed by the National union of journalists. The book describes how they put themselves in great danger uncovering corruption!
My view, which has resulted from discussions with serving members of the police is that dishonesty gradually appears but the motivation is good.
An example that has actually occurred in the last few weeks. The officer realised that a particular individual is guilty of a series of burglaries but you know the case is week. This individual is going to cause more distress and trouble and by putting him away you are doing society a good service.
So the evidence is changed just a little. It went along these lines “did the burglar actually come in the house?” “no but he would have done” “ok say lets say he did come in the house just over the door step” This small change between which side of the doorstep makes a huge difference.
I used to fully agree, but now I feel this is wrong.
The culture of dishonesty spreads and the line between honesty and dishonesty moves. Dishonesty can then become acceptable, provided it is done for a good reason. But what if the reason is not good?
What if an officer realises that he can easily get away with fabricating evidence to “punish” someone who has pissed him off. Mlc, do you really think this does not happen? Are you absolutely sure if the flight got airborne no one would be tempted just a little? You suggest that there is not one officer that would ever fabricate evidence to punish someone? Say if I joined the police force, you suggest there is no possibility I could act dishonestly?
This is a game of evidence, admissible evidence, fabricated evidence, inadmissible evidence and non disclosed evidence (which should be).
MLC read the book, by becoming aware of the problems you may be able to do something positive. I have a good knowledge of the workings of the standards dept and the IPCC. The IPCC have no teeth whatever. The standards dept in many many cases exist to put on a show that complaints are investigated. They use every trick in the book to not investigate. If you want details pm me and I would be happy to advise as I don’t want to sidetrack in further.
My bottom line again is, if threatened by the police/ or any intelligence services for that matter, don’t push your luck. If you decide to ignore the warning you could be in deep sh*t.
Change can only occur when the problems are realised. I am sure you would not believe that the UK police is perfect. Individuals come in all shapes and sizes and just because they join the police service does not automatically mean they are incorruptible. Do you really think that no evidence is suppressed by the police or no evidence is changed just a little? Do you really think no improvements are needed?
You expect me to answer in a short posting? Have a read of "Untouchables, dirty cops, bent justice and racism in scotland yard" written by a couple of Guardian journo's.
The book highlights that the list of victims of police misconduct is a long one. The number of police officers who have been prosecuted for such crimes is very low.
It is a very good read and the two authors were unflinchingly backed by the National union of journalists. The book describes how they put themselves in great danger uncovering corruption!
My view, which has resulted from discussions with serving members of the police is that dishonesty gradually appears but the motivation is good.
An example that has actually occurred in the last few weeks. The officer realised that a particular individual is guilty of a series of burglaries but you know the case is week. This individual is going to cause more distress and trouble and by putting him away you are doing society a good service.
So the evidence is changed just a little. It went along these lines “did the burglar actually come in the house?” “no but he would have done” “ok say lets say he did come in the house just over the door step” This small change between which side of the doorstep makes a huge difference.
I used to fully agree, but now I feel this is wrong.
The culture of dishonesty spreads and the line between honesty and dishonesty moves. Dishonesty can then become acceptable, provided it is done for a good reason. But what if the reason is not good?
What if an officer realises that he can easily get away with fabricating evidence to “punish” someone who has pissed him off. Mlc, do you really think this does not happen? Are you absolutely sure if the flight got airborne no one would be tempted just a little? You suggest that there is not one officer that would ever fabricate evidence to punish someone? Say if I joined the police force, you suggest there is no possibility I could act dishonestly?
This is a game of evidence, admissible evidence, fabricated evidence, inadmissible evidence and non disclosed evidence (which should be).
MLC read the book, by becoming aware of the problems you may be able to do something positive. I have a good knowledge of the workings of the standards dept and the IPCC. The IPCC have no teeth whatever. The standards dept in many many cases exist to put on a show that complaints are investigated. They use every trick in the book to not investigate. If you want details pm me and I would be happy to advise as I don’t want to sidetrack in further.
My bottom line again is, if threatened by the police/ or any intelligence services for that matter, don’t push your luck. If you decide to ignore the warning you could be in deep sh*t.
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The standards dept in many many cases exist to put on a show that complaints are investigated. They use every trick in the book to not investigate.
The "rubber heels squad" are not a nice bunch of people to get the wrong side of. I have seen this department at work and any "dodgy" coppers would be fearful of this mob, you see they don't adhere to PACE like the run of the mill bobby does, well not in the form you could understand, if you really knew what goes on you would be eating humble pie instead of moaning on all the time ..A little knowledge is dangerous
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You expect me to answer in a short posting? Have a read of "Untouchables, dirty cops, bent justice and racism in scotland yard" written by a couple of Guardian journo's.
AA, You also work on the theory that everybody that makes a complaint about an officer is telling the truth, and not just lieing to get a bit of compo.
Your above comments sum up your knowledge taken from books that have been written by Ex policemen/women to make a buck or two.everybody knows these people write these books then the publishers then fill it full of Non fiction just to make the book sell,as we all like a bit of scandal.
AA This is one big wind up or you have to be the saddest and most narrowed minded bloke I know ? Come on move on and just pay the ticket.
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daft bat and Volrider
I don't think we're going to make much further progress and I think others may be bored with our discussion.
I have personal experience of bent cops, they do exist, standards did a good cover up the and the IPCC said the whole investigation by standards was flawed. Justice did not prevail.
I accept no justice process can be perfect, you also need to be aware of this, otherwise you are unbelievably daft.
Volrider
You say The "rubber heels squad" are not a nice bunch of people to get the wrong side of.
For us normal civilians, perhaps you police are also not a nice bunch of people to get the wrong side of!
So the decision was right NOT TO FLY as perhaps the pilot may have come across "not a nice bunch of people" !!!
oh and by the way my comments have not come from ex coppers books!! the book untouchables is not fiction, rather than narrowmindedly dismissing it, why not enlighten yourself. Seems you have your heads stuck in the sand..insisting everything is just perfect!
The events I have described are real events which occured in Kingsbury approx two weeks ago. I know the officer and where he works. He genuinely thinks he is doing the right thing as the two characters who were fitted up deserved to as thet had done several other houses and could scare an old lady to death!
But you two are so innocent in your perfect little police club that you can't believe anything like that could happen. Well it did happen so there!!
I don't think we're going to make much further progress and I think others may be bored with our discussion.
I have personal experience of bent cops, they do exist, standards did a good cover up the and the IPCC said the whole investigation by standards was flawed. Justice did not prevail.
I accept no justice process can be perfect, you also need to be aware of this, otherwise you are unbelievably daft.
Volrider
You say The "rubber heels squad" are not a nice bunch of people to get the wrong side of.
For us normal civilians, perhaps you police are also not a nice bunch of people to get the wrong side of!
So the decision was right NOT TO FLY as perhaps the pilot may have come across "not a nice bunch of people" !!!
oh and by the way my comments have not come from ex coppers books!! the book untouchables is not fiction, rather than narrowmindedly dismissing it, why not enlighten yourself. Seems you have your heads stuck in the sand..insisting everything is just perfect!
The events I have described are real events which occured in Kingsbury approx two weeks ago. I know the officer and where he works. He genuinely thinks he is doing the right thing as the two characters who were fitted up deserved to as thet had done several other houses and could scare an old lady to death!
But you two are so innocent in your perfect little police club that you can't believe anything like that could happen. Well it did happen so there!!
Last edited by Autostart Abort; 5th Apr 2006 at 17:06.
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vol and daft
If a complaint is made about one of you lot, following a "police fit up";
The investigation will not begin until after the hearing. If the hearing goes in the police favour, then no investigation takes place as "the evidence has been tested in court."
Therefore a bent copper only has to hope his evidence is believed in court and then no investigation will take place.
Even if dozens are police witnesses are available to dispute the fabricated officers statement, no investigation will take place.
If the case is lost by the police, years will have passed and standards will then say..police witnesses are hard to trace and or their memory of the event will be poor (due to their self imposed time lapse.)
How convenient! this is one example of how police suppress evidence of their bad apples.
The more you probe into police misconduct and procedures the more worrying it gets.
If a complaint is made about one of you lot, following a "police fit up";
The investigation will not begin until after the hearing. If the hearing goes in the police favour, then no investigation takes place as "the evidence has been tested in court."
Therefore a bent copper only has to hope his evidence is believed in court and then no investigation will take place.
Even if dozens are police witnesses are available to dispute the fabricated officers statement, no investigation will take place.
If the case is lost by the police, years will have passed and standards will then say..police witnesses are hard to trace and or their memory of the event will be poor (due to their self imposed time lapse.)
How convenient! this is one example of how police suppress evidence of their bad apples.
The more you probe into police misconduct and procedures the more worrying it gets.