How do you get past the affordability of the R44?
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How do you get past the affordability of the R44?
How do I pursuade the company that I'm working for to step up into a turbine aircraft? I am currently flying a Robinson R44 Raven II for them. The biggest issue to overcome is affordablility of the Robinson.
I work for a small industrial real estate development company. They use the aircraft to fly the COEs to different marketing conventions they hold. They also use the aircraft to fly their Sales people to meetings, and Maintance personal to their warehouses. Like so many other small companies they would like me to arrange the occasional helicopter ride or powerline patrol to help off set the costs of the helicopter.
Personally I think the EC 120 would be the best fit for this company. But I dont know how to get to justify the expense.
I would greatly appriciate any professional advice available!
I work for a small industrial real estate development company. They use the aircraft to fly the COEs to different marketing conventions they hold. They also use the aircraft to fly their Sales people to meetings, and Maintance personal to their warehouses. Like so many other small companies they would like me to arrange the occasional helicopter ride or powerline patrol to help off set the costs of the helicopter.
Personally I think the EC 120 would be the best fit for this company. But I dont know how to get to justify the expense.
I would greatly appriciate any professional advice available!
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What makes you think they need a turbine? Is the 44 usually 4 up? Regularly miss a fifth seat?
If it ain't broke, don't fix it ... even if the fix may be a nice chunk of turbine time for the logbook
EC120 is a nice aircraft, but as you said very expensive and does have both power and C of G "issues"
If they intend to lease the aircraft to recoup some expense, then the EC120 may well not be particularly attractive to operators because of the lease costs.
AS350 or B206 are good all-rounders, although starting to show their age
If it ain't broke, don't fix it ... even if the fix may be a nice chunk of turbine time for the logbook
EC120 is a nice aircraft, but as you said very expensive and does have both power and C of G "issues"
If they intend to lease the aircraft to recoup some expense, then the EC120 may well not be particularly attractive to operators because of the lease costs.
AS350 or B206 are good all-rounders, although starting to show their age
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What would they get for all that extra money that they would be spending?
The answers need to be expressed in terms that they will understand and accept, if you want to succeed. I can't think of many in the situation you describe.
The answers need to be expressed in terms that they will understand and accept, if you want to succeed. I can't think of many in the situation you describe.
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Have a look at the Enstrom 480B and Schweizer 333.
They're both a lot more than the R44 to buy, but operation is much cheaper than the 206.
Look closely at your seat and baggage requirements as they will both be more flexible than the R44.
Personally I prefer the Enstrom, it has an extendable baggage area long enough for a set of golf clubs.... I doubt you'd be disappointed with the 333 if you only needed 4 seats. You'll sit on the left in both, but that can make some jobs easier.
They're both quieter than the 206 and neither are French, if that matters to you. I find that any triple bench seat is as squeezy as any other so that's not a big issue and the double in the 333 is just the same.
FW
They're both a lot more than the R44 to buy, but operation is much cheaper than the 206.
Look closely at your seat and baggage requirements as they will both be more flexible than the R44.
Personally I prefer the Enstrom, it has an extendable baggage area long enough for a set of golf clubs.... I doubt you'd be disappointed with the 333 if you only needed 4 seats. You'll sit on the left in both, but that can make some jobs easier.
They're both quieter than the 206 and neither are French, if that matters to you. I find that any triple bench seat is as squeezy as any other so that's not a big issue and the double in the 333 is just the same.
FW
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at least with the R44 you are still flying ? but my guess is if you wanted to push a turbine machine to your boss and justify the price jump... throw in safety... wether it's true or not.. if your out to get turbine hours and you don't mind making a hard sell on someone then do some re search on piston accidents and turbine accidents, insurance etc... safety is always a big selling point.
Good luck.
SKYF
Good luck.
SKYF
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Interesting enough, this is exactly what we've done except we did not sell the R44. It is now our second machine for light job and tight confined landing pads in the jungle.
Cost, well if your cie can afford it, sure upgrade...but all costs will double as ours did like Fuel, insurance and maintenance. At the end of the day, the R44 was as good as what the EC120 does now. How just remember which way the pedals go.....
Cheers
WLM
Cost, well if your cie can afford it, sure upgrade...but all costs will double as ours did like Fuel, insurance and maintenance. At the end of the day, the R44 was as good as what the EC120 does now. How just remember which way the pedals go.....
Cheers
WLM
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The reason I think the company would benefit from a upgrade is there are several times where the R44 is completely maxed out on weight and on the limits C of G. There has been several times where we have had to leave a passenger behind or replace them with a lighter passenger.
I understand that operating at Max Gross and on CG limits is just part of the buisness but as often as this acurrs I think they would be happier with a larger more comfortable helicopter. I also thought a heavier helicopter would handle turbulence better. We have a couple passengers that get motion sickness easily
. They take their pills and use their sick sacks. Total Troopers!
I thought the EC 120 would be a good match due to the cruise speed, large storage compartment and the ability to carry 4 passengers. I also like the smooth ride the 3 bladed rotor system gives. I was unaware of the issues with C of G.
I would love to upgrade them into an AS350 B3 as I have flown that aircraft for a past employer and was very impressed. However, I personally think that is too much helicopter for this company. More than likely they would never use the helicopter to it's full capasity.
If I where only trying to build turbine time I think the 206 would be the way to go. I believe it is about the cheapest route after figuring in all the expenses. The issue is the R44 is directly comparable to it. It will carry as many passengers as the R44, but is a little slower.
The 206L might be a step in the right direction with the added seats. I'm conserned about comfort though. Get the back full and Passengers and they would be knocking knees. My other consern is our average trip is 3 hrs one way, thats a long way to travel backwards.
Anyone know much about the MD helicopters?
I dont think I would be able to sell my employer on the accident rate of Pistons vs Turbines. Most of those accidents are unrelated to the engine. Comparing the specific number of engine falures of Pistons vs Turbines isnt that convinsing either. That's a small number. How often does an engine just stop out of nowhere for no apparent reason? How often have you been driving and the engine just quit?
They have the money it's just a matter of convinsing them to spend it on a helicopter.
Thank you all for your very valuable input!
I understand that operating at Max Gross and on CG limits is just part of the buisness but as often as this acurrs I think they would be happier with a larger more comfortable helicopter. I also thought a heavier helicopter would handle turbulence better. We have a couple passengers that get motion sickness easily
. They take their pills and use their sick sacks. Total Troopers!I thought the EC 120 would be a good match due to the cruise speed, large storage compartment and the ability to carry 4 passengers. I also like the smooth ride the 3 bladed rotor system gives. I was unaware of the issues with C of G.
I would love to upgrade them into an AS350 B3 as I have flown that aircraft for a past employer and was very impressed. However, I personally think that is too much helicopter for this company. More than likely they would never use the helicopter to it's full capasity.
If I where only trying to build turbine time I think the 206 would be the way to go. I believe it is about the cheapest route after figuring in all the expenses. The issue is the R44 is directly comparable to it. It will carry as many passengers as the R44, but is a little slower.
The 206L might be a step in the right direction with the added seats. I'm conserned about comfort though. Get the back full and Passengers and they would be knocking knees. My other consern is our average trip is 3 hrs one way, thats a long way to travel backwards.
Anyone know much about the MD helicopters?
I dont think I would be able to sell my employer on the accident rate of Pistons vs Turbines. Most of those accidents are unrelated to the engine. Comparing the specific number of engine falures of Pistons vs Turbines isnt that convinsing either. That's a small number. How often does an engine just stop out of nowhere for no apparent reason? How often have you been driving and the engine just quit?
They have the money it's just a matter of convinsing them to spend it on a helicopter.
Thank you all for your very valuable input!
