Helmets and Helicopter Pilots
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: UK
Helmets and Helicopter Pilots
Just found this news article and thought some of you might be interested as there have been threads about the benefits of helmets, NVGs etc
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Heavy helmets grounding chopper pilots
A researcher in Fredericton is trying to help find a way to prevent neck
injuries for military helicopter pilots.
Some pilots end up being grounded by neck injuries caused by the weight of
their helmets.
University of New Brunswick graduate student Michael Harrison has joined
forces with the Canadian military to look for ways to lighten the load.
"When you put a set of night-vision goggles on a helmet, the weight adds up
to about 3½ kilos. To put it in a household perspective, four litres of
milk. If you buy a bag of milk at the grocery store and put it on your head
and drive home wearing that, you'll get a rough idea of what a helicopter
pilot might feel like."
Harrison and other researchers are working with 31 pilots at CFB Gagetown,
which is the home of the Canadian military's only full-motion flight
simulator for the CH-146 Griffon helicopter.
Link to news report
---------------------------------------------
Heavy helmets grounding chopper pilots
A researcher in Fredericton is trying to help find a way to prevent neck
injuries for military helicopter pilots.
Some pilots end up being grounded by neck injuries caused by the weight of
their helmets.
University of New Brunswick graduate student Michael Harrison has joined
forces with the Canadian military to look for ways to lighten the load.
"When you put a set of night-vision goggles on a helmet, the weight adds up
to about 3½ kilos. To put it in a household perspective, four litres of
milk. If you buy a bag of milk at the grocery store and put it on your head
and drive home wearing that, you'll get a rough idea of what a helicopter
pilot might feel like."
Harrison and other researchers are working with 31 pilots at CFB Gagetown,
which is the home of the Canadian military's only full-motion flight
simulator for the CH-146 Griffon helicopter.
Link to news report
Red On, Green On
Joined: May 2004
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From: Between the woods and the water
Perhaps "some pilots" should try the gym?
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From: Germany
Hello Bertie, you haven't flown with NVG jet, have you? Additonal to the weight on your head, you have a limited eyesight (about 50 degrees, depending on the NVG's used), what means, that you have to swivel your head to look in different areas - instead of just using you eyes. And to make things even harder, todays NVG focus at abou 1,5 meters up to endless - so when you want to take a glance at the instruments, your head goes up and you start glancing underneath the NVG to the instrument panel. Add to that the normal vibrations of a helicopter and Problems with the neck can be anticipated. Out of 14 Pilots in our Squadron 10 are rated for NVG-operations. One of them has problems from time to time - so that he has to take time off, another one is grounded by now, thinking about surgery but with a high risk of being paralized after that, not really a nice choice. That makes 20% of pilots with problems, due to NVG-flying - and with time to go, more will follow, I'm quite sure about that. Flying Bull
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From: Australia
G'day all,
Certainly from personal experience, flying with goggles et al is extremely tiring given the weight of the helmet, googles, weight pack, lip light battery pack etc etc. As was mentioned, if it were simply a case of bearing this weight and flying around as you normally would by day, it would be hard work but when you consider the limited FOV, a fair amount of head movement is required by all the crew to cover their arcs of responsibility. This can be further increased depending on ambient light levels, if you're conducting formation work etc etc.
It all adds up and I'm not surprised there have been reported cases of neck strain and so on. However, I am surprised at the severity of the problem as reported by the initial article and our German contributor. I would be very interested to find out the rate of (and total amount of) goggle flying required to bring on these kinds of injuries.
Cheers,
P68
Certainly from personal experience, flying with goggles et al is extremely tiring given the weight of the helmet, googles, weight pack, lip light battery pack etc etc. As was mentioned, if it were simply a case of bearing this weight and flying around as you normally would by day, it would be hard work but when you consider the limited FOV, a fair amount of head movement is required by all the crew to cover their arcs of responsibility. This can be further increased depending on ambient light levels, if you're conducting formation work etc etc.
It all adds up and I'm not surprised there have been reported cases of neck strain and so on. However, I am surprised at the severity of the problem as reported by the initial article and our German contributor. I would be very interested to find out the rate of (and total amount of) goggle flying required to bring on these kinds of injuries.
Cheers,
P68
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From: Germany
Hi there, to PaPa 68: the pilot grounded has had a crash years ago - may be that contributed to the problems, he has to day. On the other hand, the operating time with NVG is to short to show already major effects on health - but I would bet, that with increasing NVG-time neck problems will increase by substancial numbers. to airborne-artist: I guess, you'd better avoid a hard landing ;-) Even so I like to play around with the choppers I fly, you better stick to the numbers, key points and so on an play it safe - when flying with NVG, always putting on an additional safety margin - just for the case to come. Even with a couple of hundreds hours with NVG - and more or less a constant experience, you still can't judge the height as accurate as when doing dayflying, especially when landing at unknown clearings. It's important to have a good feel for the aircraft and a good crew communication, allowing the pilot to look outside, while the other important information is brought to the pilot by the Co and/or the noise of the rotor and so on. With a well communicating and trusty crew, we went well below the normal operational limits, because the cause (life saving) was worth while. Greetings Flying Bull
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From: Germany
Originally Posted by maxeemum
Porters68
You need to define FOV as "field of view" for the unedumacated.
Max
You need to define FOV as "field of view" for the unedumacated.
Max
just take your normal Photocamera, 50mm lens, tape it in front of your head and start to ride your bike or drive your car - that is how it feels.
Greetings "Flying Bull"
Red On, Green On
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From: Between the woods and the water
to airborne-artist: I guess, you'd better avoid a hard landing ;-) Even so I like to play around with the choppers I fly, you better stick to the numbers, key points and so on an play it safe - when flying with NVG, always putting on an additional safety margin - just for the case to come.
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From: Germany
Originally Posted by diginagain
wlynx, if you are built like most Army Lynx drivers (self included), the NVG and lead counterweight were barely noticable!
Just one go around the night low level route to keep up currency is one thing - operational flying, night after night - top score was six hours of NVG-flying - is another story. We started to trial new - don't now the word - the things on top of a seat, protecting the head from bending to the back in case of a crash - because the batterypack would prevent to keep the head upright.
With daily use of NVG problems will arise .
Greetings Flying Bull
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From: Lincs UK, Tulsa Ok, USA
Originally Posted by diginagain
wlynx, if you are built like most Army Lynx drivers (self included), the NVG and lead counterweight were barely noticable!
yes to true, I was a fat boy lynx pilot who was just to heavy to remain a floppy jocky on Gazzelle, I flew with 654 Sqn, 4 regt AAC when they were based in Detmold, Germany.
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From: Kammbronn
Hey you Lynx-Drivers - how ofen have you been night flying with NVG?
six hours of NVG-flying
Wayne, check your PMs, Buddy.
Last edited by diginagain; 28th February 2006 at 15:05.
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From: Germany
Originally Posted by diginagain
Lots, actually.
Sometimes less, frequently more. Not just route-flying, either.
Wayne, check your PMs, Buddy.
Sometimes less, frequently more. Not just route-flying, either.
Wayne, check your PMs, Buddy.
when was that? I get a fax everyday about the nightflying activity of the British Army Lynx a/c in the Gütersloh area, because we operate in the same area and it is quite useful to know, if someone else is lowflying around.
And these guys really don't fly often - and are mostly back before midnight..... Greetings "Flying Bull"
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From: Kammbronn
Sorry, Flying Bull, my reference to NVG flying was historical. I started flying on goggles way back in 88, in Germany, when we'd do 3-4 hours continuous, both in the simulater and actual, to build up experience. I can't reach my logbooks at the mo, but I'm sure I've logged 6, 7 and possibly 8 hour night duties, all actual, in other places.
The crews are quite possibly restricted on how many hours they can fly at night - I know that in my time, the night route system was becoming restricted out of consideration for our host nation's citizens.
As for the point about neck injury and the strain imposed by the goggles, it wasn't something I came across during my time in, but as has already been alluded to, us Lynx drivers are generally built like props, as distinct from the 'winger-like' svelte floppy pilots.
The crews are quite possibly restricted on how many hours they can fly at night - I know that in my time, the night route system was becoming restricted out of consideration for our host nation's citizens.
As for the point about neck injury and the strain imposed by the goggles, it wasn't something I came across during my time in, but as has already been alluded to, us Lynx drivers are generally built like props, as distinct from the 'winger-like' svelte floppy pilots.
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From: Germany
Hi, diginagain,
that must have been with these old style NVG, the ones with the three batteries which you couldn't use for the privat equipment ;-)
We only use these ones for daytraining - with a black cap in front - light coming through a needlehole.
The ANVIS NVG are much better - but we had to put extra weight on the back, otherwise the system wouldn't be balanced on the helmet.
Normally operations should be limited to 4 hrs a turn - but what do you do, if someone crys for help?
I haven't had mayor neck-problems yet - felt some discomfort from time to time - actually I have more problems with the headset in my helmet - missing my british helmet - should have "lost" that one, when I left the navy in Portland ;-)
But looking around and thinking about the design of a neck - problems will come for sure.
Unfortunately, with low budgets, not to much is done for the pilots, to keep the health up. Somebody should tell the guys from the moneydepartement, how expensive it is, to recruit a new pilot and get him all the ratings and experiance, he needs to do the job....
Back to Portland - I was only a paying guest to her majestys senior service ;-)
Just to get my wings and the Lynx-Rating - the Navy Lynx-rating :-)
Greetings "Flying Bull"
that must have been with these old style NVG, the ones with the three batteries which you couldn't use for the privat equipment ;-)
We only use these ones for daytraining - with a black cap in front - light coming through a needlehole.
The ANVIS NVG are much better - but we had to put extra weight on the back, otherwise the system wouldn't be balanced on the helmet.
Normally operations should be limited to 4 hrs a turn - but what do you do, if someone crys for help?
I haven't had mayor neck-problems yet - felt some discomfort from time to time - actually I have more problems with the headset in my helmet - missing my british helmet - should have "lost" that one, when I left the navy in Portland ;-)
But looking around and thinking about the design of a neck - problems will come for sure.
Unfortunately, with low budgets, not to much is done for the pilots, to keep the health up. Somebody should tell the guys from the moneydepartement, how expensive it is, to recruit a new pilot and get him all the ratings and experiance, he needs to do the job....
Back to Portland - I was only a paying guest to her majestys senior service ;-)
Just to get my wings and the Lynx-Rating - the Navy Lynx-rating :-)
Greetings "Flying Bull"
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From: Kammbronn
Flying Bull, used the PNG once or twice as an Aircrewman on Scout, then moved onto the counterweighted ANVIS (still got the lead weight somewhere) with the fiddly little cells (kept two spares in those handy little earplug capsules). We had the luxury of a large amount of real estate east of Detmold where we were cleared down to GL. I don't envy anyone who has to try NVG without mounting them on a bone-dome.
Lynx - the British Army's finest anti-submarine helicopter!
Lynx - the British Army's finest anti-submarine helicopter!
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 927
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From: Germany
Hello diginagain,
Lynx - the British Army's finest anti-submarine helicopter!
That would be another thread - Senior service via junior service ;-)
As a "guest" I had an outside view on the competition - especially, because some training was done on airforce airfields (Bulldog).....
It was advised not to visit some pubs on certain days - that were airforce or army days - on other days, airforce and armypersonal were wise not to enter - that were Navy-days....
childish play for grown up man ;-) Greetings "Flying Bull"
Lynx - the British Army's finest anti-submarine helicopter!
That would be another thread - Senior service via junior service ;-)
As a "guest" I had an outside view on the competition - especially, because some training was done on airforce airfields (Bulldog).....
It was advised not to visit some pubs on certain days - that were airforce or army days - on other days, airforce and armypersonal were wise not to enter - that were Navy-days....
childish play for grown up man ;-) Greetings "Flying Bull"