Occupancy of LHS with dual controls by non-pilot
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Joined: Aug 2003
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From: UK
Occupancy of LHS with dual controls by non-pilot
Sorry Chaps - I bet this topic has come-up many times before, but here goes:
Can anyone steer me towards the regs (CAA, LBA, JAR, ANO, etc) that refer to who can occupy the LHS of a helicopter when dual controls are fitted. In particular I am interested in the case where the PIC is only PPL(H) rated and the flight is strictly under private flight rules. Take this one step further - what is the situation if the PPL(H) rated pilot is practising HHO techniques under special ANO exemptions.
Arctic Tern
Can anyone steer me towards the regs (CAA, LBA, JAR, ANO, etc) that refer to who can occupy the LHS of a helicopter when dual controls are fitted. In particular I am interested in the case where the PIC is only PPL(H) rated and the flight is strictly under private flight rules. Take this one step further - what is the situation if the PPL(H) rated pilot is practising HHO techniques under special ANO exemptions.
Arctic Tern
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Well the LHS is normally the pax as I'm sure you're aware, and that seems to answer the question in your title for this thread. Reading between the lines though, it seems you're wondering whether the PIC can sit there.
I stand to be corrected on this one, but I don't think there is anything in the primary rulebooks about which side you should sit on, simply because in the past (and probably currently for all I know) it has been type specific.
There are rules about qualifications required in order to touch the controls, about following the flight manual, and about maintaining a C of G within limits, but not as far as I know specifically about which seat you must fly from.
I stand to be corrected on this one, but I don't think there is anything in the primary rulebooks about which side you should sit on, simply because in the past (and probably currently for all I know) it has been type specific.
There are rules about qualifications required in order to touch the controls, about following the flight manual, and about maintaining a C of G within limits, but not as far as I know specifically about which seat you must fly from.
Joined: May 2004
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From: Aus, Europe & everywhere in between
Arctic
As for if the PIC can sit in the "front passenger seat" the flight manual should state which seat the PIC must sit in. For most aircraft it will be in the limitations section. That being said, I understand some of the newer Eurocopter models do not stipulate (EC120).
In Aus, there is an allowance to carry a passenger in a seat with fully functioning dual controls as long as they are briefed to basically "keep hands and feet off" by the PIC.
No doubt the UK CAA has some antiquated system in place but I don't know.
As for if the PIC can sit in the "front passenger seat" the flight manual should state which seat the PIC must sit in. For most aircraft it will be in the limitations section. That being said, I understand some of the newer Eurocopter models do not stipulate (EC120).
In Aus, there is an allowance to carry a passenger in a seat with fully functioning dual controls as long as they are briefed to basically "keep hands and feet off" by the PIC.
No doubt the UK CAA has some antiquated system in place but I don't know.
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From: 18 Degrees North
hey man,
take the Robbie for example, the only limitation i am aware of is "solo from right seat only", but this is just for weight and balance reasons, with a passenger onboard P1 can fly from left if they want to.
obviously though an unrated passenger should be briefed and should not touch the controls unless as flight of legit flight instruction yada yada yada
regards
CF
take the Robbie for example, the only limitation i am aware of is "solo from right seat only", but this is just for weight and balance reasons, with a passenger onboard P1 can fly from left if they want to.
obviously though an unrated passenger should be briefed and should not touch the controls unless as flight of legit flight instruction yada yada yada
regards
CF
Joined: Dec 1999
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From: UK
I'm not aware of any UK "rule" thst says pax cannot sit behind the controls. How would anyone ever take pax in a Cessna 150 if that was the case?
Neither am I aware of rules that stipulate qualifications required before you can touch the controls. A student pilot, pre solo, has no "qualifications" whatsoever, not even a medical cert, so this is clearly a red herring; equally there is nothing to stop you letting your mate have a go either, as long as you are not passing it off as instruction and you (not him) aren't properly licenced for that.
No doubt this pragmatic situation represents the "antiquated system" that oogle so sourly refers to - he's right, he doesn't know! (He's forgetting, of course, that the Aus rules themselves are derived in their entirety from the old - er - antiquated - Board of trade regs from the 40s and 50s...)
Neither am I aware of rules that stipulate qualifications required before you can touch the controls. A student pilot, pre solo, has no "qualifications" whatsoever, not even a medical cert, so this is clearly a red herring; equally there is nothing to stop you letting your mate have a go either, as long as you are not passing it off as instruction and you (not him) aren't properly licenced for that.
No doubt this pragmatic situation represents the "antiquated system" that oogle so sourly refers to - he's right, he doesn't know! (He's forgetting, of course, that the Aus rules themselves are derived in their entirety from the old - er - antiquated - Board of trade regs from the 40s and 50s...)
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: UK
Gents.
Thanks for the advice and views so far. Now to complicate the discussion - can anybody tell me what the situation is if we are talking a D' Reg (German) helicopter? I suspect the LBA have a fairly strict attitude.
Regards
Arctic
Thanks for the advice and views so far. Now to complicate the discussion - can anybody tell me what the situation is if we are talking a D' Reg (German) helicopter? I suspect the LBA have a fairly strict attitude.
Regards
Arctic
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Sorry Arctic Term, can't help with the German situation, other than to say that they are JAA.
Have a look at the ANO 2005 article 26 (search for cap 393 on the CAA website). 26(1) covers the requirement for a license, and 26 (2b) covers student solo, and 26 (2c) covers student dual.
Originally Posted by Agaricus bisporus
Neither am I aware of rules that stipulate qualifications required before you can touch the controls. A student pilot, pre solo, has no "qualifications" whatsoever, not even a medical cert, so this is clearly a red herring; equally there is nothing to stop you letting your mate have a go either, as long as you are not passing it off as instruction and you (not him) aren't properly licenced for that.
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From: UK
Not withstanding any rule or regs
Anyone intending to fly from the "other seat" should first have a famil flight with a flight instructor or at least a very compitent/experienced type rated pilot. The change over can take some getting used to and could end in tears
Keep it safe
lionco
Anyone intending to fly from the "other seat" should first have a famil flight with a flight instructor or at least a very compitent/experienced type rated pilot. The change over can take some getting used to and could end in tears
Keep it safe
lionco
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
In UK there is nothing to say you can't have duals fitted with a passenger in the other front seat. However, you'd be wise to brief them properly as that situation has caused accidents. In Canada, duals cannot be fitted with a non-qualified passenger in the front seat.
The flight manual will state which seat the pilot should occupy. Certainly, the Bell 206 one says that the pilot shall occupy the right seat.
Phil
The flight manual will state which seat the pilot should occupy. Certainly, the Bell 206 one says that the pilot shall occupy the right seat.
Phil
Joined: Sep 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL(H)
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From: Canada
"In Canada, duals cannot be fitted with a non-qualified passenger in the front seat."
Paco - can you give me reference to that rule in CARS?
I do believe you are not allowed to let the passenger manipulate the controls unless you are a qualified instructor giving dual instuction but can't find a reference that states they must be removed if you are not.
In our company it is a rule covered in our OMA ( operations manual ) and not a bad idea - however we are allowed to have the engineer occupy the seat - ( Track and Balance flights ect. )
I have never been able to find a reference in CARS for it.
Thanks
Albatross
Paco - can you give me reference to that rule in CARS?
I do believe you are not allowed to let the passenger manipulate the controls unless you are a qualified instructor giving dual instuction but can't find a reference that states they must be removed if you are not.
In our company it is a rule covered in our OMA ( operations manual ) and not a bad idea - however we are allowed to have the engineer occupy the seat - ( Track and Balance flights ect. )
I have never been able to find a reference in CARS for it.
Thanks
Albatross
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Hong Kong
I know this might be a bit ofa tangent...
Here in the US we have SFAR73 - a regulation specifically designed for the R22 and R44 (to try and lower the bodycount)
One of the many stipulations is that no-one may touch the controls unless they have recieved 'awareness training' from a CFI (low-g, mast bumping, low rrpm etc..) and recieved an endorsement. Also no solo before 20hrs.
Are there any similar regs in UK/AUS/NZ/BURKINA FASO etc etc...?
Here in the US we have SFAR73 - a regulation specifically designed for the R22 and R44 (to try and lower the bodycount)
One of the many stipulations is that no-one may touch the controls unless they have recieved 'awareness training' from a CFI (low-g, mast bumping, low rrpm etc..) and recieved an endorsement. Also no solo before 20hrs.
Are there any similar regs in UK/AUS/NZ/BURKINA FASO etc etc...?
Cool as a moosp
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Mostly Hong Kong
For Robinson R22 and R44 the Pilots Operating Handbook gives a sub title "Caution" and states;
R22: "For helicopters with removable controls, remove left seat controls if person in that seat is not a rated helicopter pilot"
R44: "Removable controls should be removed if person in forward left seat is not a rated helicopter pilot."
Whilst this is not in the limitations section of the manuals, but in the normal procedures, it would no doubt be deemed to be irresponsible if you went against this advice. Your local Air Navigation Order/FAR OPS will go into detail on which sections of the flight manual are law, and which are advisory.
R22: "For helicopters with removable controls, remove left seat controls if person in that seat is not a rated helicopter pilot"
R44: "Removable controls should be removed if person in forward left seat is not a rated helicopter pilot."
Whilst this is not in the limitations section of the manuals, but in the normal procedures, it would no doubt be deemed to be irresponsible if you went against this advice. Your local Air Navigation Order/FAR OPS will go into detail on which sections of the flight manual are law, and which are advisory.
