R44 Down on Melbourne Beach
Hi everyone,
This reminds me of an incident that occured in the late 1980's or maybe 1990 where I was the passenger. I was in a Kestrel Aviation Kawasaki KH4 and something happened - a big bang - and we suddenly autorotated into the Alexander Gardens next to the Yarra River in Melbourne.
I believe the pilot was a man by the name of Richard Gay or Richard Guay. I was told he moved on to fly for Channel 10 and he had flown in Vietnam.
Does anyone know the cause of that accident and if anyone knows Richard or what happened to him?
I remember being very excited when the pilot told us the police Dauphin may take us back to the World Trade Centre helipad, but they didn't, just flew off after a good look.
Any help appreciated!
Thanks,
Tickle.
This reminds me of an incident that occured in the late 1980's or maybe 1990 where I was the passenger. I was in a Kestrel Aviation Kawasaki KH4 and something happened - a big bang - and we suddenly autorotated into the Alexander Gardens next to the Yarra River in Melbourne.
I believe the pilot was a man by the name of Richard Gay or Richard Guay. I was told he moved on to fly for Channel 10 and he had flown in Vietnam.
Does anyone know the cause of that accident and if anyone knows Richard or what happened to him?
I remember being very excited when the pilot told us the police Dauphin may take us back to the World Trade Centre helipad, but they didn't, just flew off after a good look.
Any help appreciated!
Thanks,
Tickle.
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Whirlyhen
I'm surprised you think 1600-1700 ft (as stated by JE) is low level. Surely if you suffer from either LTE or LTA at that height or higher, you have plenty of time to recover, so there should be no need for a precautionary landing.
If on the other hand, there was a tail rotor malfunction, you would expect any pilot, male or female, to get it down quickly where of course it would then be easier to fix the problem.
I'm surprised you think 1600-1700 ft (as stated by JE) is low level. Surely if you suffer from either LTE or LTA at that height or higher, you have plenty of time to recover, so there should be no need for a precautionary landing.
If on the other hand, there was a tail rotor malfunction, you would expect any pilot, male or female, to get it down quickly where of course it would then be easier to fix the problem.
Nigel, you say
I think you'll find JE said
I think you'll find it was a loss of 1600-1700 ft and not AT 1600-1700ft. Given the height they were banner towing at that day, I am sure the recovery was damn close to sea level.
Well done.
Bevan..
I'm surprised you think 1600-1700 ft (as stated by JE) is low level. Surely if you suffer from either LTE or LTA at that height or higher, you have plenty of time to recover, so there should be no need for a precautionary landing.
Before you all get carried away, all that I can report ATM is that the machine made a precautionary landing following a LTE which involved a loss of height of about 1600 - 1700 feet. The pilot made the right decision to land, and a check was made of the aircraft by a LAME, who was unsure of tolerances on the blade surfaces.
Well done.
Bevan..
"Come on guys, let's take this banner for a spin!"
Err...1600-1700 foot fall and then a precautionary? 1600-1700 with a banner underneath? "LTE" with a banner underneath?? Excuse me whilst I emit an incredulous "WTF!?" Just how high was she when this whole ordeal began?
"Hand me the binoculars, Martha, I think that little heliocopter has something hanging down underneath it."
"Oh, don't be silly dear, that's just the space shuttle on re-entry. Or maybe an asteroid."
Methinks there's more to this story than is being told. There usually is. I mean, for instance...bear with me now...just how does a person "sneak up" behind the Vice President of the United States when he is hunting quail? I would assume that since quail are ground birds, everyone was being super quiet. But Cheney "didn't hear" him coming? C'mon... When I heard that "story," the old PPRuNe Fan had to shake his head in disbelief and go "WTF!? They expect us to believe that crap?"
Now I will neither castigate or congratulate this pilot. Whatever happened...and it's likely that only she knows (and if she's smart she'll feign complete loss of memory of the event)...something got way out of hand. "LTE" only happens when the airspeed is quite low. Not what you'd want to have with a banner hanging from the hook. "1600-1700" is quite high for a banner (and remember, she probably had to be higher than that). So "something" went haywire. She probably (wisely) decided to sit down, take a deep breath, regroup and pull seat cushion material from her behind.
But congratulating her on her expert judgement and skill is kind of like saying, "Gee Senator Kennedy, I didn't know you were such a great swimmer! Can I help you up out of the water, sir?" Or, in a more timely vein (since I don't want you groovy guys and groovy girls to think the PPRuNe Fan is stuck in the 1960's), "Got one! Gee Mister Cheney, wow, nice shooting!"
"Hand me the binoculars, Martha, I think that little heliocopter has something hanging down underneath it."
"Oh, don't be silly dear, that's just the space shuttle on re-entry. Or maybe an asteroid."
Methinks there's more to this story than is being told. There usually is. I mean, for instance...bear with me now...just how does a person "sneak up" behind the Vice President of the United States when he is hunting quail? I would assume that since quail are ground birds, everyone was being super quiet. But Cheney "didn't hear" him coming? C'mon... When I heard that "story," the old PPRuNe Fan had to shake his head in disbelief and go "WTF!? They expect us to believe that crap?"
Now I will neither castigate or congratulate this pilot. Whatever happened...and it's likely that only she knows (and if she's smart she'll feign complete loss of memory of the event)...something got way out of hand. "LTE" only happens when the airspeed is quite low. Not what you'd want to have with a banner hanging from the hook. "1600-1700" is quite high for a banner (and remember, she probably had to be higher than that). So "something" went haywire. She probably (wisely) decided to sit down, take a deep breath, regroup and pull seat cushion material from her behind.
But congratulating her on her expert judgement and skill is kind of like saying, "Gee Senator Kennedy, I didn't know you were such a great swimmer! Can I help you up out of the water, sir?" Or, in a more timely vein (since I don't want you groovy guys and groovy girls to think the PPRuNe Fan is stuck in the 1960's), "Got one! Gee Mister Cheney, wow, nice shooting!"
Originally Posted by PPRUNE FAN#1
Err...1600-1700 foot fall and then a precautionary? 1600-1700 with a banner underneath? "LTE" with a banner underneath?? Excuse me whilst I emit an incredulous "WTF!?" Just how high was she when this whole ordeal began?
(edit to remove more useless garbage)
(edit to remove more useless garbage)
And Nigel, I haven't encountered LTE/LTA, but I'm assured that it can take a long drop to recover. I firmly support the pilot's decision to make a precautionary landing, and inspect the machine before further flight.
Cool as a moosp
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KMS, because that is what real professionals do in this industry when anything even remotely connected to the operation of a helicopter makes them feel that they want to check something out. Nothing to do with what is required, or what is mandated, or what pprune Monday Quarterbacks might suggest. At the stage that it was removed from the beach there was, and as far as I am aware still is, only annecdotal evidence of that much abused acronym, LTE.
Most of the experienced pilots and investigators here would think is perfectly normal to truck a machine back to a proximate base after a precautionary landing. That is all part of risk management in the industry. Costs a bit more, but as the Old Saw says, if you think safety is expensive, try an accident.
Most of the experienced pilots and investigators here would think is perfectly normal to truck a machine back to a proximate base after a precautionary landing. That is all part of risk management in the industry. Costs a bit more, but as the Old Saw says, if you think safety is expensive, try an accident.
Probably put the shivers up the pilot, best thing to do is to land and get it out of your mind before carrying on with the reminder of the flight.
Nobody can fault the pilot for wanting to get the aircraft checked out, good decision IMHO.
TiP
Nobody can fault the pilot for wanting to get the aircraft checked out, good decision IMHO.
TiP
"Typical rant?" I'll give you a rant.
John Eacott:
Shut up, John. Just shut up. Evidently I wasn't the only one who understood that the LTE ship was towing the banner. You probably know the girl and feel some misplaced sense of responsibility to come to her defense. It reeks of reverse-toadyism. Probably one of these low-time wonders you keep pumping out while telling us what great pilots they are.
I'm still confused as to how an R-44, hitherto unknown to be afflicted with the dreaded LTE, could get into it this time. But hey, there's a first time for everything
Lucky she wasn't at 1000'.
Ask her about that, will you? Ask her how her helicopter managed a 1700' free-fall whilst she was doing...what?...at the controls. Then maybe go over the EP for LTE/LTA with her.
Whatever you're smoking, I suggest that you reduce the dose. LTE whilst filming another helicopter towing a banner (from a kilometre away) has morphed into one of your typical diatribes, bearing little or no resemblance to what everyone else is talking about.
I'm still confused as to how an R-44, hitherto unknown to be afflicted with the dreaded LTE, could get into it this time. But hey, there's a first time for everything
Lucky she wasn't at 1000'.Ask her about that, will you? Ask her how her helicopter managed a 1700' free-fall whilst she was doing...what?...at the controls. Then maybe go over the EP for LTE/LTA with her.
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If you are into generalities, then you can say that anytime a helicopter does something unexpected or uncommanded, barring a mechanical failure, it is pilot error. An error being any time there is a deviation from optimum. An altitude deviation is an error, a 1700' altitude deviation is a larger error.
It would seem impossible to lose yaw control in an R44 as long as you have full RRPM, but it happens. Pilot error? Sure, because what else could it be. I watched a hovering Raven II get spun 270 degrees by LLWS - in this case it was the pilot's judgement error for being in the air just as the gust front arrived (he was trying to get the ship back to the hangar before the storm arrived). Luckily, he reacted properly to the situation his initial error caused, and no injury or damage done.
Most of my flying is a series of corrected errors - the trick is notice the errors when they are tiny, and correct them rapidly (preferably before they become noticable to anyone else).
So absolutely, if this R44 didn't experience mechanical difficulty (and apparently it didn't), then the pilot made a mistake of judgement, action, or reaction - most likely all three. Exprience is a tough tutor. Test first, lesson after.
It would seem impossible to lose yaw control in an R44 as long as you have full RRPM, but it happens. Pilot error? Sure, because what else could it be. I watched a hovering Raven II get spun 270 degrees by LLWS - in this case it was the pilot's judgement error for being in the air just as the gust front arrived (he was trying to get the ship back to the hangar before the storm arrived). Luckily, he reacted properly to the situation his initial error caused, and no injury or damage done.
Most of my flying is a series of corrected errors - the trick is notice the errors when they are tiny, and correct them rapidly (preferably before they become noticable to anyone else).
So absolutely, if this R44 didn't experience mechanical difficulty (and apparently it didn't), then the pilot made a mistake of judgement, action, or reaction - most likely all three. Exprience is a tough tutor. Test first, lesson after.
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For crying out loud.........
Fact one: A pilot (gender irrelevant) had a problem and decided to put the thing down in one piece. No injuries, no deaths, no damage.
Fact two: Only the people who were in it know exactly what happened, so cut the barrack room bullsh*t, especially you PPF#1, you numpty.
As for the comment about poor piloting technique, do me a favour. To me it shows excellent presence of mind. There was an unknown problem which caused altitude loss, so the PIC puts it down safely. Without more facts, no judgement can be made at all. Especially by a bunch of keyboard "experts."
Fact one: A pilot (gender irrelevant) had a problem and decided to put the thing down in one piece. No injuries, no deaths, no damage.
Fact two: Only the people who were in it know exactly what happened, so cut the barrack room bullsh*t, especially you PPF#1, you numpty.
As for the comment about poor piloting technique, do me a favour. To me it shows excellent presence of mind. There was an unknown problem which caused altitude loss, so the PIC puts it down safely. Without more facts, no judgement can be made at all. Especially by a bunch of keyboard "experts."
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An error doesn't imply poor technique - the best in the world make errors. Observing and commenting on an error is not an indictment (in fact it is about 50% on an instructor's job). However, if there was no mechanical problem with the aircraft, and no freak wind condition, then there was at least one error made that caused such an extreme deviation in flight.
Could it have happened to me? Absolutely. Maybe I've been close to worse many times, and blissfully unaware (I know of one time when I definitely was).
Like I said earlier, making a mistake isn't desirable, but they happen every day. Let's be glad we have the ability to recover from them.
Could it have happened to me? Absolutely. Maybe I've been close to worse many times, and blissfully unaware (I know of one time when I definitely was).
Like I said earlier, making a mistake isn't desirable, but they happen every day. Let's be glad we have the ability to recover from them.
I'm not usually the first to defend any Robinson product myself, best left to the poor folk who can't afford proper helicopters (
), but:
I'd be very very careful calling this LTE missy. Frank's going to crawl over this to ensure his little baby doesn't have any further "design flaws".
IF she insists on some kind of TR control departure....I'd start with LTA and work from there.
If you ask me - her mobile fone just went off
), but:I'd be very very careful calling this LTE missy. Frank's going to crawl over this to ensure his little baby doesn't have any further "design flaws".
IF she insists on some kind of TR control departure....I'd start with LTA and work from there.
If you ask me - her mobile fone just went off
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Poor old TC. 
I guess this thread posed him a dilema. Kick Robinsons or kick the pilot? Yep, his kick other pilots boot won the day. No point in breaking that run.
Which rock did Badbreath crawl out from under? Just thank the Lord he aint a pro pilot.
And no thread would be complete without the world's greatest living helicopter expert shooting his mouth off.
"Poor piloting techniques almost kills 4"?
So he's only been a CPL for a year and he still aint got his first job as a pilot but, hey, KMS is so good he can tell from England what happened in Australia.
PpruneFan#1
I'm a fan of your posts. I enjoy reading them even when I don't agree with you because you make me think, but you jumped in too quick this time. Nobody said the helo was banner towing except you. Its a real pity you took your mistake out on Eacott.
The pilot did 100% the right thing landing. Good on her.
I guess this thread posed him a dilema. Kick Robinsons or kick the pilot? Yep, his kick other pilots boot won the day. No point in breaking that run.
Which rock did Badbreath crawl out from under? Just thank the Lord he aint a pro pilot.
And no thread would be complete without the world's greatest living helicopter expert shooting his mouth off.
"Poor piloting techniques almost kills 4"?
So he's only been a CPL for a year and he still aint got his first job as a pilot but, hey, KMS is so good he can tell from England what happened in Australia.
PpruneFan#1
I'm a fan of your posts. I enjoy reading them even when I don't agree with you because you make me think, but you jumped in too quick this time. Nobody said the helo was banner towing except you. Its a real pity you took your mistake out on Eacott.
The pilot did 100% the right thing landing. Good on her.
Bronx:
So sue me. See if I care. Let me check...nope!
Fact is, no matter what she was doing, she managed to get her little chopper (I dare not call it a proper helicopter) going 'round and 'round and 'round whilst dropping 1600 feet or so...after which she made an "absolutely brilliant" (whirly-something), "110% correct" (petitfromage) decision to set the ship down. I say, astounding display of airwomanship, eh what!
The larger issue is why a helicopter landing on the beach makes even makes the news. This is a non-story. "Yeah, we landed. Uhh, the cameraman had to take a leak. Guess I shouldn't have called the mayday. Sorry!" That's what I would have said, and left it at that. It's sad, but I guess since 9/11, every time something farts in the air it's "ANOTHER NEAR AIR-DISASTER!!! OH MY GOD!! YOU WON'T WANT TO MISS THIS!!! FILM AT ELEVEN!!!!" I'm surprised the local t.v. station didn't break-in to regularly shedduled programming with audio of the mayday.
Reporter: "And in this update to the near-horrific almost-an-emergency that we reported to you two weeks ago about that helicopter that landed on that beach...where, ahh, nothing happened...we have now learned of the reaction of other helicopter pilots to this incident! Posts on an internet discussion board seem to indicate..."
I'm a fan of your posts. I enjoy reading them even when I don't agree with you because you make me think, but you jumped in too quick this time. Nobody said the helo was banner towing except you. Its a real pity you took your mistake out on Eacott.
Fact is, no matter what she was doing, she managed to get her little chopper (I dare not call it a proper helicopter) going 'round and 'round and 'round whilst dropping 1600 feet or so...after which she made an "absolutely brilliant" (whirly-something), "110% correct" (petitfromage) decision to set the ship down. I say, astounding display of airwomanship, eh what!
The larger issue is why a helicopter landing on the beach makes even makes the news. This is a non-story. "Yeah, we landed. Uhh, the cameraman had to take a leak. Guess I shouldn't have called the mayday. Sorry!" That's what I would have said, and left it at that. It's sad, but I guess since 9/11, every time something farts in the air it's "ANOTHER NEAR AIR-DISASTER!!! OH MY GOD!! YOU WON'T WANT TO MISS THIS!!! FILM AT ELEVEN!!!!" I'm surprised the local t.v. station didn't break-in to regularly shedduled programming with audio of the mayday.
Reporter: "And in this update to the near-horrific almost-an-emergency that we reported to you two weeks ago about that helicopter that landed on that beach...where, ahh, nothing happened...we have now learned of the reaction of other helicopter pilots to this incident! Posts on an internet discussion board seem to indicate..."