Becoming a Crewman, Winchman etc

[Bertie Thruster]

In SAR situations you will safely cope with a good winchman not being a very skilled medic. However a crew will not often achieve success with a poor winchman who happens to be a clever paramedic.

[LIGHT50]

Tell that to the patient. You cannot have one skill and not the other.

[Bertie Thruster]

Strange then that many of the UK's RAF SAR most daring, dangerous and decorated rescues were carried out by winchmen who were not paramedics!

[futuresar]

When where the dates of these rescues??? so what your sayin then is there is no need for winchmen to be paramedics?? well its a good job the casualties did not need ALS then!!!

[lost horizon]

Just for the record guys and, (Iron), in case I was misunderstood.

I have no objection to a guy who is a paramedic becoming a winchman. the fact that he is a paramedic will indeed be an advantage to him however, lets get things in the right order..

FIRST he must be capable of operating as a winchman (AIRCREW) with all that that entails. Any experienced SAR guy will know what I mean.
SECOND for a small proportion of his time (I estimate 5-10%) he will use his paramedic skills so a qualified aviator can be taught that later.

Not everyone is suitable to be aircrew. There is aptitude, selection and it takes a hell of a lot of training to be fully spammed up rear crew and a fully integrated member of the crew. The winchman is not just a bit of kit you can call on as and when you start winching.

Some paramedics will be great at this and they should be given the chance but lets get it right; AIRCREW first, paramedic second.

Of course, I might just be niaive and and not up with the bright new future for UKSAR............!!! What do you think Iron??

[Senior Pilot]

There has been a lot of drift in this thread, but I think that a little reminder may be due: it is about "Becoming a Crewman, Winchman, etc"

There are other threads for 'pilot/engineer' issues, such as SAR: Search & Rescue Ops which would be more suited for the discussion at hand

[Winch-control]

Crewman, Winchman

Im interested in becoming a winchman and was wondering if anyone could offer me advice on the best career path to take.

RAF / RN ?

Which came first the chicken or the egg? Does it really matter?
Inherent with the crewman (Mil SAR) role nowadays (post 2005) is the requirement and expected standard of SAR rearcrew to be of a Paramedic standard. Whilst within the military it is acceptable that a probationary period is undertaken with lattitude for skill advancement to take place over a 12 month period leading from a basic level (ambulance technician) to advanced level (paramedic); within the civilian world (new entrants)the required/expected standard is Paramedic (as a winchman)from the first day you are on the job.
The military both (RAF and RN down there own pathways) have the luxury of being able to pick and choose by means of SAR pre-select and then SARTU/OCU the best of the bunch that fit the criteria for winchmen, they then train them up medically.
In the civilian world given a robust recruitment process, employing someone already qualified to paramedic level is clearly an advantage (over the less/un-qualified rearcrew wannabee).
In the air, to a degree the winchman can be 'carried' by the rest of the crew to get him on scene (think Direct entry SAR winchmen), however once with the casualty he is (often) on his own, (think very long pulse checks for those new to the SAR world..)
The RAF, in my opoinion have the advantage over the RN largely beacause the SAR role is not seen as front line operations by the RN, although that is/has changed over recent years, there is more likely hood of an RN Winchmen being returned to his Jungley (or other) roots than an RAF counterpart. Note please I said 'advantage', not that one is better than the other.
Finally, one analogy might be that, not all Pilots have pilots backgrounds, many come from all walks of life; however it may be an advantage to them applying for the job if thay have, for example, an aeronautical degree and some aptitude. Likewise, not all crewman have crewman backgrounds, however it may be an advantage to them to have an advanced diploma/degree in Paramedical science, and some aptitude.

Strange then that many of the UK's RAF SAR most daring, dangerous and decorated rescues were carried out by winchmen who were not paramedics

BT, and in there lies the great question of what standard of care is required/expected of Winchmen. The standard (post 2005) is governed by HPC. Whilst (depends how far back you want to go), Scoop and run was the norm; nowadays, accountability and duty of care play a much greater part. If you accept that Mil SAR have to meet the HPC standard, then you have to be able to justify your actions to a greater degree. In the pre paramedic days (lets say at its extreme, only band aids were carried on the a/c) then that was the 'expectation'. Today however, applying a band aid, when the skill set means you can carry out advanced airways/cannulation/IV drugs etc would not be acceptable.
Daring/dangerous/decorated rescues are still carried out by todays winchmen (paramedic qualified) and they may or may not have used none/some/all of those skills to carry that out, however you can be sure that if they were needed, and didn't use them, then questions would be asked. If they didn't need them, then thats a bonus.

[Cabe LeCutter]

Shetlander,

To try and get this thread back on track. Unless you are currently a Paramedic or a qualified crewman, you are going to have a difficult job breaking into the SAR world. Government legislation requires winchman to be qualified Paramedics, or undergoing training, and I believe that SAR(H) has that written into the contract. The last group of guys that I am aware of that were recruited off the street were for the JIGSAW project; I attended the Immediate Emergency Care Course with some of them who had been, military winchmen, painter decorator, policeman and butcher amongst others. I understand that not all completed training basic training, that in many respects is just like the military, I say basic training, because whilst they ended up on shift, initially they were only qualified to lift people out of water and boats. I believe that many have completed further training and are now qualified to carry out more advanced roles.

Try and avoid the mud slinging and pointed remarks of some of the posters, they all believe passionately about what they do and are unwilling to accept a percieved degredation of service. In future, the military will not be a ready source of trained SAR personnel, but in the short term they can meet the need. If you want the best chance of joining the SAR world, I suggest that you speak directly to the Training Staff at one of the main providers, CHC, Bristows or Bond. Ask them what they are looking for and your best course of action, you may not like the answers but at least you will not have to put up with the banter on here.

At the end of the day, even if you were accepted by one of the companies, you would have to make the grade. SAR can be a grim and demanding job that not all people are suited to, it is not just hanging on a wire and dispensing sticking plasters.

Heads down, look out for the flack.

[shetlander]

Hi all,

Have been looking into this in more depth.

As i do not have the relevant paramedic tickets i think i can rule out being the winchman, so now looking into being the winch operator.

Have been in touch with Heli-Dive and will be in contact with atlas reed to see about starting winch op training.

Hopefully if i can get the basic JAR training under my belt i can focus on a bit of medical stuff and hopefully all this will put me in good stride to contact the likes of CHC with a view to them taking me on.

Fingers Crossed!

[Cabe LeCutter]

Shetlander,

You were given some good advice before. Contact the main players and ask what your chances are before you waste your money. Many winch operators start as winchmen or rotate, you need medical skills as a winch operator as well.

Heads down, look out for the flack.

[louisnewmark]

In simple terms, there exists a current capability gap in UK between mil and civ SAR due ... to the amount of training, the current govt depts' requirements and the use of NVG (ignoring 360 v 180 radar and speed of the aircraft).

This is not due to the quality of the individuals, simply the difference in current govt depts' requirements.

The same capability is supposed to exist under SARH but that is a lot of promises away from reality, as you would naturally expect from a contract that hasn't yet been signed!

Louis

[Vie sans frontieres]

Did he do the job to the best of his ability?

I'm sure he's a nice guy who tried really hard, but that's not enough is it? C0ck-ups have been known to happen from time to time in the SAR world. You don't need to be a genius to figure out that they'll happen more frequently if you don't select and train your people properly. It's when those c0ck-ups impact on the people that you're trying to rescue or other third parties and questions start to be asked by more than just the squadron/company execs that you wish you'd been a bit more selective in recruitment.

[[email protected]]

im sure given the same training, an ex paramedic could do the job as well as any loadmaster or whoever else you dangle off a wire.

That's just the point - he was given all the training (and more) and still couldn't make the grade because he was a paramedic first and aircrew second - it needs to be the other way round as CHC have now proved to their own satisfaction.

Very nice of you to be so demeaning of those in the RAF but the fact is that to get to the front line you have to pass a lot of tests and selection processes and undergo a great deal of training - strangely enough we don't get many idiots on operational Squadrons.

[pasptoo]

still couldn't make the grade because he was a paramedic first and aircrew second

Perhaps that's because he wasn't up to the mark to start with? Others have succeeded in the past surely? Nothing to do with being a paramedic.

The Navy have produced several Chefs, who have become aircrew, who have become Paramedics! Maybe it is ALL to do with ability in the first place? No one ever chopped at Valley or Culdrose? Maybe this proves that CHC won't take just anyone and turn them loose on SAR?

to fast track through people with no aviation experience who might make the grade

Isn't that what they all do? Only ones who don't are commercial aircrew!

The military take some chap off the street and turn them into whatever they want every day of the week! Some make it, some don't.

Just like SAR-H some will make it, some won't!

[wat am-i doin]

The military take some chap off the street and turn them into whatever they want ever

pasptoo - I think you have said it all. Why are there some who feel they are born into the SAR role.....

I agree that perhaps the taxi drivers out there do need a lot of skill in what they are doing, but lets be fair, those of us playing tea bag are not exactly, well not sure of the word but yes we work damn hard, are good at what we do but that is because of the initial training and ongoing training and support of our colleagues.

And what,we then train to become paramedics, Carb do you think we are now the best paramedics and the one's in the NHS are not as good as us?

dream on that what I thought, we are pants at being paramedics we get some bits right, we get some bits wrong, those NHS paramedics train for years to get qualified and are dealing with patients all day every day, how many real jobs do we do every day????????

Training is good, but it is training, if you have the aptitude for it then with support you will be good at it weather you come from the NHS or if you were lucky enough to be born into the RAF SAR force.

And as an an aside, I saw an RAF paramedic recently trying desperately to work out why his nebuliser was not working properly for his patient only to have it pointed out to him that his flow rate was 15lts/min when it should be not more than 6lts/min thus the patient was not getting any benefit what so ever, and we talk about being the best ad no idiots out there????

And I believe CHC have more than one winchman who was a paramedic before joining with no mill back ground and do sterling work no less than ourselfs and may be even better when they feel they have more to prove perhaps?

I certainly would not turn one away if I was in need, Would you? doubt it.

I just don't see why there is such a downward glance on some of these guys, how about support or is it more about fear of losing what we have???????????????

rant over time for tea.

[Vie sans frontieres]

Perhaps that's because he wasn't up to the mark to start with?

Yes, that's the selection part of selection and training.

[Thomas coupling]

Doh! There you go again Crab - talking about something you have absolutely no experience with, whatsoever.
I have flown with police officers who are now full time navigators - they read maps very very accurately, they tactically plot numerous moving targets, they initiate various search plans, they co-ordinate up to 4 radios at once, they co-ordinate troop movements on the ground, etc etc. They do all this at a cruise speed of 135+ knots too! Not the dawdling 80-90 kts of the SeaQueen.
I have flown with paramedics who have subsequently transferred their skills across to being police observers, who QED have shown that they in turn are very capable navigators.
No disrespect guys - but being able to operate and/or swing from a winch is no great feat by comparison. These days there isn't even any further need for them being qualified divers as they don't leave the winch behind!
So perleeeeze don't ever suggest paramedics can't do the work of current Mil SAR winchmen, or for that matter rad ops
Considering a significant number of rescues are onshore, who would you prefer to be tending to your needs if you were a casualty - a winchman trained to be a paramedic or a paramedic trained to be a winchman?

The bottom line is you can train most people to be most things....and this is most certainly one of them

[Bertie Thruster]

"Perleeeeze" TC..I think you are talking a load of bolleux.

...and you denigrate some of the bravest men I have ever worked with.

[[email protected]]

TC as a non-SARboy you have completely missed the point about this paramedic v winchman issue - you don't need to be a paramedic to be a winchman, you need to be physically and mentally strong and brave enough to be putting your life on the line on a daily basis.

The paramedic skills don't get used that often and I know most of our guys and gals aren't a match for an NHS paramedic in pure medical knowledge and ability - they would be the first to admit that. However, every NHS paramedic who comes flying with us is massively respectful of the qualities of our rearcrew - none of them would relish trying to patch people up on the side of a mountain or a pitching deck.

It is aviation awareness and basic helicopter crewman knowledge and skills, from navigation to USLs, coupled with that preparedness to be put in harms way to save another life that sets our winchmen apart and makes them the best in the world at what they do.

Anyone who just thinks they are there to keep the wire straight should try doing their job and then comment.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

The military take some chap off the street and turn them into whatever they want

...because the military provide a healthy dose of training, both when the individual is new and once operational. In the SAR world at least, the mil training allocation is far more generous than for civ counterparts.