Night engine out auto: video link
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: home and abroad
Posts: 582
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flygunz,
I have no time on the type that crashed, but on my A/C the best range and min RoD speeds are significantly lower than cruising speed. So perhaps the delay as you perceived it was caused by the pilot flaring the ship to either of these speeds.
Furthermore, I agree with Woolf in that I also heard "WIRE" and not "Flare". I don't know if the observer in that operation is an active pilt and has acces to controls, but as a NH pilot in an emergency, I'd be shouting advice as well, I suppose..something about human nature.
They survived, the A/C hit wires and did not. We'll just have to wait for the results of the investigation.
But in my mind it clearly shows the madness of operating single engine over hostile terrain.
I have no time on the type that crashed, but on my A/C the best range and min RoD speeds are significantly lower than cruising speed. So perhaps the delay as you perceived it was caused by the pilot flaring the ship to either of these speeds.
Furthermore, I agree with Woolf in that I also heard "WIRE" and not "Flare". I don't know if the observer in that operation is an active pilt and has acces to controls, but as a NH pilot in an emergency, I'd be shouting advice as well, I suppose..something about human nature.
They survived, the A/C hit wires and did not. We'll just have to wait for the results of the investigation.
But in my mind it clearly shows the madness of operating single engine over hostile terrain.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Andover, Hampshire
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FlyGunz.........I have to agree with you. However, I was always taught and subsequently taught others that the technique to use at night is the "constant attitude" autorotation, maintaining the landing light in a stable position where the pilot can see the landing area clearly.
The pilot was very slow in entering auto. A 360 auto from approx 800' is not the best idea at night, unless he knew exactly where he was going to touch down.
Did the pilot at the controls do anything to arrest the rate of descent??
Kudos to the crew, they walked away from it.
The pilot was very slow in entering auto. A 360 auto from approx 800' is not the best idea at night, unless he knew exactly where he was going to touch down.
Did the pilot at the controls do anything to arrest the rate of descent??
Kudos to the crew, they walked away from it.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Michigan USA
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First and foremost, congrats to the pilot for getting them on the ground and walking away.
I am a newbie, bigtime, but that seemed like an extremely weak flare. Seems to me that a more agressive flare would have slowed the rate of descent much more and maybe the pilot was pulling a little too much collective too soon and lost the blades enertia. Seemed like a really hard impact to me.
I am a newbie, bigtime, but that seemed like an extremely weak flare. Seems to me that a more agressive flare would have slowed the rate of descent much more and maybe the pilot was pulling a little too much collective too soon and lost the blades enertia. Seemed like a really hard impact to me.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: AZ
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Im a newbie as well but there seems like a lot of lazyboy quarterbacking going on here. Let the engine crap out on you at night (my worst fear) and see how you really handle it. Whatever he did got them down safely and he only had 30 seconds to make 8 million decisions. Now we get the pleasure of sitting and stewing over it? What ever he did worked, job well done.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dansaff
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KennyR
Good to hear from you! You are right about the accepted tecnique for a night auto is the constant attitude, generally around 40kts G/S and if you remember these are practised using a large landing area from an reasonable height. Reason... higher ROD than at Min ROD speed and a longer, faster run on requiring a clearer area. This guy had most of the cards stacked against him and I would suggest that a variable flare would have been a prefered technique. My point and I say again to all, based on the video, is that it appears that no attempt was made to do anything during the final stages as the Ac closed to the ground.
Jcooper & D-U
If I understand the correct meaning of 'lazy quarterbacking' I suspect you mean armchair sniping?
Not the case, you just develop an analytical and dispassionate way of looking at crashes after a few investigations.
Also as it was put in the public domain it's there to be commented on.
What I hope from this and I don't mind taking the odd bit of abuse as I take a non emotional position, is that the debate not only promotes the 'how would I do it' thought but raises the awareness of all of you young bucks who have to fly singles over built up areas as a matter of course leading to better Flight Safety.
S76 Heavy
I think the finance department of most Police districts determines the type of helicopter that is used, it's only legislation from the FAA that will make it safer for the Police Units.
Can anyone answer my first question yet?
Airmail. Strange use of the English language if thats the case.
Good to hear from you! You are right about the accepted tecnique for a night auto is the constant attitude, generally around 40kts G/S and if you remember these are practised using a large landing area from an reasonable height. Reason... higher ROD than at Min ROD speed and a longer, faster run on requiring a clearer area. This guy had most of the cards stacked against him and I would suggest that a variable flare would have been a prefered technique. My point and I say again to all, based on the video, is that it appears that no attempt was made to do anything during the final stages as the Ac closed to the ground.
Jcooper & D-U
If I understand the correct meaning of 'lazy quarterbacking' I suspect you mean armchair sniping?
Not the case, you just develop an analytical and dispassionate way of looking at crashes after a few investigations.
Also as it was put in the public domain it's there to be commented on.
What I hope from this and I don't mind taking the odd bit of abuse as I take a non emotional position, is that the debate not only promotes the 'how would I do it' thought but raises the awareness of all of you young bucks who have to fly singles over built up areas as a matter of course leading to better Flight Safety.
S76 Heavy
I think the finance department of most Police districts determines the type of helicopter that is used, it's only legislation from the FAA that will make it safer for the Police Units.
Can anyone answer my first question yet?
Airmail. Strange use of the English language if thats the case.
Last edited by flygunz; 28th Feb 2004 at 03:30.
Flugunz:
Funny how one interprets the incoming information, eh:
I saw it as an engine failure followed by the flying pilot urging the machine to get established into its auto sequence (i.e. praying for the revs to recover/attitude, etc).
The yawing (or see sawing horizontal motion) leads me to suspect that this a/c is non SAS, and the pilot is a little tense on the pedals.
Finding that landing site at night in a built up area AND getting it safely down AFTER a wire strike, to me: is an exceptional feat worth every ounce of praise that guy gets.
The "flare, flare" call could in my humble opinion, be the handling pilot talking his way thru the manouevre, under stress...willing it to adopt the correct attitude, ROD reduction and Nr rise.
Two people watching the same video and two different stories...interesting.
Either way Flygunz, you speak as if he could have and should have done better.....how would you have reacted?????
I must however, insist that IF this had gone pear shaped and they had crashed into a busy road, or built up area, then the story would have been told differently -
this has got to be an advert for NOT flying singles over built up areas, surely?????
Funny how one interprets the incoming information, eh:
I saw it as an engine failure followed by the flying pilot urging the machine to get established into its auto sequence (i.e. praying for the revs to recover/attitude, etc).
The yawing (or see sawing horizontal motion) leads me to suspect that this a/c is non SAS, and the pilot is a little tense on the pedals.
Finding that landing site at night in a built up area AND getting it safely down AFTER a wire strike, to me: is an exceptional feat worth every ounce of praise that guy gets.
The "flare, flare" call could in my humble opinion, be the handling pilot talking his way thru the manouevre, under stress...willing it to adopt the correct attitude, ROD reduction and Nr rise.
Two people watching the same video and two different stories...interesting.
Either way Flygunz, you speak as if he could have and should have done better.....how would you have reacted?????
I must however, insist that IF this had gone pear shaped and they had crashed into a busy road, or built up area, then the story would have been told differently -
this has got to be an advert for NOT flying singles over built up areas, surely?????
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dansaff
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thomas
Read back on the thread and you will find a comment where the audio recorded is that of the observer not the handling Pilot. My comments are based on the fact that the voice we hear is the non handling Pilot.
Not wishing to repeat myself but I criticise the late entry into Auto (based on the audio) and what appears to be no attempt to lessen the arrival at the scene of the crash. I do not criticise the turn to the landing area and agree the guy did a good job from what looks like a lowish height. I won't comment on the possible tense pedal action as I wasn't there but the yawing is consistent with engine Tq fluctuations prior to a failure.
I stand by my previous comment about the Flare call.
As to whether I think he should have or could have done better, pretty irrelevant as they both walked away. I suppose I could join the backslapping brigade and leave it there. But let me ask you this as I know your position, take the video clip and use it as teaching tool for Police Pilots flying singles over built up areas. If you tell me that you could not find anything in it to highlight that would enable others to do a better job then Ok, I'll rethink, after all this is what it's all about, learning from incidents like this.
How would I have reacted, impossible question and you know that, but I've had my fair share which is why I feel I can comment.
I can tell you one thing though, my last single type was the Koala and under the same circumstances would have had great difficulty in reaching the same landing point.....
I agree with you that singles over bulit up areas is a risk. The FAR/AIM rules for helis are more lax than the UK but my opinion is that all Police helicopters in the US should be twins.
Read back on the thread and you will find a comment where the audio recorded is that of the observer not the handling Pilot. My comments are based on the fact that the voice we hear is the non handling Pilot.
Not wishing to repeat myself but I criticise the late entry into Auto (based on the audio) and what appears to be no attempt to lessen the arrival at the scene of the crash. I do not criticise the turn to the landing area and agree the guy did a good job from what looks like a lowish height. I won't comment on the possible tense pedal action as I wasn't there but the yawing is consistent with engine Tq fluctuations prior to a failure.
I stand by my previous comment about the Flare call.
As to whether I think he should have or could have done better, pretty irrelevant as they both walked away. I suppose I could join the backslapping brigade and leave it there. But let me ask you this as I know your position, take the video clip and use it as teaching tool for Police Pilots flying singles over built up areas. If you tell me that you could not find anything in it to highlight that would enable others to do a better job then Ok, I'll rethink, after all this is what it's all about, learning from incidents like this.
How would I have reacted, impossible question and you know that, but I've had my fair share which is why I feel I can comment.
I can tell you one thing though, my last single type was the Koala and under the same circumstances would have had great difficulty in reaching the same landing point.....
I agree with you that singles over bulit up areas is a risk. The FAR/AIM rules for helis are more lax than the UK but my opinion is that all Police helicopters in the US should be twins.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lots of suggestions/advice and criticism here, but I think some people may be forgetting the correct technique for S.E. failure at night over a city.
This is quite simply to use whatever means you can to ensure you walk away without injury.
The pilots involved in this accident obviously used this technique with exceptional skill.
This is quite simply to use whatever means you can to ensure you walk away without injury.
The pilots involved in this accident obviously used this technique with exceptional skill.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: N2832W8100
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Am I missing something, how can you judge weather he entered Auto late, and not aiming to get max distance?
At any given time over the U.S there are hundreds and hundreds of single engine police helicopters in operation.
By being forced to upgrade to Twin engines, Law enforcement agencies will have to reduce the number of helicopters in the air. Considering that it is quite rare for a modern turbine to flame out, and how useful these machines are I don't think we should be pushing for this just so a couple of politicians can claim some sort of victory.
Air ops over London are now limited to the very wealthy and the massive budget commercial companies, In theory it makes sense but considering the massive amount of succesful single turbine engine ops over places like L.A, which is far more congested, we shouldn't really be encouraging it.
If you don't feel comfortable yourself then don't do it, but don't push to stop others from flying, lets be realistic here, there are far more dangerous things to worry about, living in a city, the chances of a helicopter landing on top of you are quite remote.
At any given time over the U.S there are hundreds and hundreds of single engine police helicopters in operation.
By being forced to upgrade to Twin engines, Law enforcement agencies will have to reduce the number of helicopters in the air. Considering that it is quite rare for a modern turbine to flame out, and how useful these machines are I don't think we should be pushing for this just so a couple of politicians can claim some sort of victory.
Air ops over London are now limited to the very wealthy and the massive budget commercial companies, In theory it makes sense but considering the massive amount of succesful single turbine engine ops over places like L.A, which is far more congested, we shouldn't really be encouraging it.
If you don't feel comfortable yourself then don't do it, but don't push to stop others from flying, lets be realistic here, there are far more dangerous things to worry about, living in a city, the chances of a helicopter landing on top of you are quite remote.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: oceanside
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well said autosync, twin may be safer, but the costs associated with operation would effectively put many law enforcement agencies out of business, thereby reducing public safety, i will fly anytime over cities at night in turbine single. i flew with the san antonio group just weeks ago in the same aircraft, highly skilled and very professional. kudos to the crew
dr
dr
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stabilized camera's
Hi guys,
After using stabilized camera's now for a bit, there is evidence to suggest that any flare that the pilot may have made would not be shown on the footage.
The camera's will normally try and stay on the last position where the observer had place it....... As the aircraft flares, the stabilizing system will keep the picture in the same spot.
We start to lose some perspective when we introduce stabilized footage.
food for thought.
After using stabilized camera's now for a bit, there is evidence to suggest that any flare that the pilot may have made would not be shown on the footage.
The camera's will normally try and stay on the last position where the observer had place it....... As the aircraft flares, the stabilizing system will keep the picture in the same spot.
We start to lose some perspective when we introduce stabilized footage.
food for thought.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Andover, Hampshire
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess that we assume that he entered auto late because the other seat yelled for the handling pilot to enter auto. No matter what type of auto you are contemplating you still have to enter full auto then adjust ROD, speed, RRPM to whatever type you have selected. The lack of flare to reduce forward speed is very apparent in the video, when the other seat yells "flare" (and I have listened to it many times). It also looks like there was little or no attempt to reduce ROD with pitch at the final moment.
Just my humble opinion folks after doing hundreds of "full autos" as our colonial bretheren like to refer to an EOL.
Just my humble opinion folks after doing hundreds of "full autos" as our colonial bretheren like to refer to an EOL.
Like most of you (probably), I've watched this video clip many times using Windows Media Player in full screen mode. My observations:
1. What causes an Allison to quit like that? Did he run out of fuel? The engine surges noticeably before signing-off "softly." No BANG! or anything, it just kind of spools down. Almost as if...well, you know.
2. The "C'mon, auto. C'mon, auto!" remark is curious. Perhaps the PF was a little slow reacting to the engine failure? If he was a little slow getting the pitch down, maybe the rrpm wasn't all that great during the descent (it is after all basically a TH-55 rotor system). We can clearly see that he did not aggressively flare to get it back...
3. As the sequence begins, the camera is pointing downward at some angle. Seems like about twenty degrees or so to me, might be more. Definitely not straight out at the horizon. After the engine failure, the camera aims very steeply at the ground.
4. Toward the end of the clip, we are suddenly looking straight outward. If the camera did not adjust its vertical angle (either on its own or manually), then this indicates to me that the aircraft must have assumed at least a twenty degree nose-up attitude. In other words, the PF *did* flare, and he must have started that flare above the height of the wires. It's true that the RoD does not *seem* to decrease much, but it's hard to tell. Perhaps there was not a whole lot of rrpm for there to be any flare effect.
5. At the very last second, the voice on the tape shouts two words. After repeated listenings, I think he says, "Wire! WIRES!"
So hard to tell much from that little video clip. But it's a wild ride, eh?...even knowing that it won't be our backs hurting after the tape ends. Good job to the PF. Glad I wasn't in his shoes that night.
1. What causes an Allison to quit like that? Did he run out of fuel? The engine surges noticeably before signing-off "softly." No BANG! or anything, it just kind of spools down. Almost as if...well, you know.
2. The "C'mon, auto. C'mon, auto!" remark is curious. Perhaps the PF was a little slow reacting to the engine failure? If he was a little slow getting the pitch down, maybe the rrpm wasn't all that great during the descent (it is after all basically a TH-55 rotor system). We can clearly see that he did not aggressively flare to get it back...
3. As the sequence begins, the camera is pointing downward at some angle. Seems like about twenty degrees or so to me, might be more. Definitely not straight out at the horizon. After the engine failure, the camera aims very steeply at the ground.
4. Toward the end of the clip, we are suddenly looking straight outward. If the camera did not adjust its vertical angle (either on its own or manually), then this indicates to me that the aircraft must have assumed at least a twenty degree nose-up attitude. In other words, the PF *did* flare, and he must have started that flare above the height of the wires. It's true that the RoD does not *seem* to decrease much, but it's hard to tell. Perhaps there was not a whole lot of rrpm for there to be any flare effect.
5. At the very last second, the voice on the tape shouts two words. After repeated listenings, I think he says, "Wire! WIRES!"
So hard to tell much from that little video clip. But it's a wild ride, eh?...even knowing that it won't be our backs hurting after the tape ends. Good job to the PF. Glad I wasn't in his shoes that night.
So to recap then - without knowing whether we are listening to the handling pilot or the non handling pilot; without knowing whether the FLIR picture is gyro-stabilised or not; without knowing what the weather conditions were at the time and without knowing what caused the engine to fail:
Without any of this information we are prepared to argue about what the crew should and shouldn't have done and make a decisions regarding their competence, professionalism and CRM and then try to interpret the words on the tape to fit our pre-conceived ideas of what went on!
I hope:
a. I never have an accident and b. If I do, that it is investigated properly before people start slagging me off.
Without any of this information we are prepared to argue about what the crew should and shouldn't have done and make a decisions regarding their competence, professionalism and CRM and then try to interpret the words on the tape to fit our pre-conceived ideas of what went on!
I hope:
a. I never have an accident and b. If I do, that it is investigated properly before people start slagging me off.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: AUS
Posts: 331
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I think if it gets posted on here it is going to get commented on. And I'm sure that each of us at the end of the day spend at least a little time reflecting on what went we did well and what we did less than well on the days flights.
I manage to walk away from most of my landings these days but that doesn't mean that there is nothing to be learned from the flight.
I don't think any of the comments here have been personal and I'm sure if we are not able to cop a bit of dissection & discussion of our thoughts and actions then probably we are in the wrong business. ( better off in medicine or law where you are always right) sorry F.L.
I manage to walk away from most of my landings these days but that doesn't mean that there is nothing to be learned from the flight.
I don't think any of the comments here have been personal and I'm sure if we are not able to cop a bit of dissection & discussion of our thoughts and actions then probably we are in the wrong business. ( better off in medicine or law where you are always right) sorry F.L.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: AZ
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Total agreement with crab for what its worth. We don't know anything about this besides a damn video tape. We shouldnt jump to conclusions, cause if we do, we are probably in the wrong buisness
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As there has been zero discussion or acknowledgment of my comment:
Are you sure the "cmon auto, cmon auto" is not the co-pilot or pilot encouraging the auto relight to kick in?
It seems that many of you have made your minds up already with the very limited information that is available!
Are you sure the "cmon auto, cmon auto" is not the co-pilot or pilot encouraging the auto relight to kick in?
It seems that many of you have made your minds up already with the very limited information that is available!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dansaff
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crab, unlike you to miss the point and not add something useful.
My intention here was to raise awareness in the civilian sector, an area where most Military Pilots, cocooned in a sound working and training environment, have little idea of the differences. The video clip was put on the internet and therefore is open to comment. I've made mine and and believe my criticisms to be
firm and fair. Take the time to read the previous posts.
A couple of issues have surfaced as a result of this thread and I'll start two more for comment. I think this one has seen it's day but in respect to dzeroplus, I read your post but didn't feel qualified to reply, left that to a current on type dude!
My intention here was to raise awareness in the civilian sector, an area where most Military Pilots, cocooned in a sound working and training environment, have little idea of the differences. The video clip was put on the internet and therefore is open to comment. I've made mine and and believe my criticisms to be
firm and fair. Take the time to read the previous posts.
A couple of issues have surfaced as a result of this thread and I'll start two more for comment. I think this one has seen it's day but in respect to dzeroplus, I read your post but didn't feel qualified to reply, left that to a current on type dude!