Jet A1 versus IP
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Jet A1 versus IP
I am sure this topic has been raised before however I cannot see it in the archives. What tech buff can let me know the advantages/disadvantages to using IP vs Jet A1 on industrial aid operations twin turbine helos (no passengers). Thanks i.e. Engines, fuel controls units, insurance implications.
Cheers
Cheers
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Let me guess - IP = industrial petrol? intraveinous peroxide? instantaneous phazor?
Seriously though, I seem to remember when I were a lad the old Nimbus (Westland Scout/Wasp) could be adjusted to run on just about anything carbon-based that was liquid enough to get through the fuel nozzle, from kerosene, diesel to forecourt petrol (although I think TBO dropped to about ten hrs on petrol).
Today methinks regardless of whether or not you've got pax or any other consideration you either run whatever has been blessed by he who manufactured the beast or you deserve the big bang when it all turns to rats. You can't be worried too much about cost if it's for a twin....unless you pinched it..... (Assuming of course that you're not evacuating from a war zone, but then if that's the case it's unlikely you'll have time to read this....)
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Ground tested, no fault found
Seriously though, I seem to remember when I were a lad the old Nimbus (Westland Scout/Wasp) could be adjusted to run on just about anything carbon-based that was liquid enough to get through the fuel nozzle, from kerosene, diesel to forecourt petrol (although I think TBO dropped to about ten hrs on petrol).
Today methinks regardless of whether or not you've got pax or any other consideration you either run whatever has been blessed by he who manufactured the beast or you deserve the big bang when it all turns to rats. You can't be worried too much about cost if it's for a twin....unless you pinched it..... (Assuming of course that you're not evacuating from a war zone, but then if that's the case it's unlikely you'll have time to read this....)
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Ground tested, no fault found
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Thanks for trying guys. IP= Illuminating Paraffin (Power Paraffin. I hear what your saying - don't fix what ain't broke....however the big bang theory has never passed the fact that every single crop sprayer (turbine) operator I know(Many of...) including Air Tractors (806), Turbo Thrushers etc etc, all use and have for the past many years used IP with no problems whatsoever.??????
PS. Where I am operating IP costs 58% of Jet A1. Hooooooggeee $$$$$ difference especially for twin.
PPS. Happy Flying
PS. Where I am operating IP costs 58% of Jet A1. Hooooooggeee $$$$$ difference especially for twin.
PPS. Happy Flying
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CP:
You must reside in SA or there abouts since IP is generaly banned in most countries outside of Africa. As for your querie on using IP as a substitute fuel in you're twin turbine, I think you should think long and hard.
I think you must fall into one of the following categories if you persist in this rediculous proposition:
A.) You have more money than brains but then realized that you did not really have the money you thought you did when you bought the twin;
B.) You really don't care about the crew that has to fly the machine that will eventually have a dual engine failure due to paraffin build up in the fuel jets; or
C.) Both A and B above!
My fellow aviator, if you want to operate a twin then may I suggest you get some professional advice from the manufacturer on the above stated twin. But that's only my opinion.
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 02 April 2001).]
You must reside in SA or there abouts since IP is generaly banned in most countries outside of Africa. As for your querie on using IP as a substitute fuel in you're twin turbine, I think you should think long and hard.
I think you must fall into one of the following categories if you persist in this rediculous proposition:
A.) You have more money than brains but then realized that you did not really have the money you thought you did when you bought the twin;
B.) You really don't care about the crew that has to fly the machine that will eventually have a dual engine failure due to paraffin build up in the fuel jets; or
C.) Both A and B above!
My fellow aviator, if you want to operate a twin then may I suggest you get some professional advice from the manufacturer on the above stated twin. But that's only my opinion.
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 02 April 2001).]
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My sincerest apologies to Off"sure"Igor for asking a technical question. I will limit my future Pprune questions to times I am in need of unadulterated drivel from the likes of a "short-penis" syndromed wannabee.
Or I could always just ask like nicer....you know.??
Or I could always just ask like nicer....you know.??
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Capt Pheremone, there's no need for that sort of offensive pique here. Lighten up, get laid or something.
Firstly, no one I've spoken to has any idea of what IP is. I never came across it in 10 yrs of helicoptering all over Europe and E Africa.
Secondly, the idea of putting non-apprved fuels into helos is regarded as EXTREMELY unprofessional and risky in most parts of the world, even more so if you are talking about an expensive twin, and not running a Bell 47 on Mogas.
I cant speak for Igor's physical statistics but from his profile, posts and evident experience in helicopters you have no justification in accusing him, or anyone else, of "unadulterated drivel...wannabe".
Look to your own post for that.
Gawdelpus!
Firstly, no one I've spoken to has any idea of what IP is. I never came across it in 10 yrs of helicoptering all over Europe and E Africa.
Secondly, the idea of putting non-apprved fuels into helos is regarded as EXTREMELY unprofessional and risky in most parts of the world, even more so if you are talking about an expensive twin, and not running a Bell 47 on Mogas.
I cant speak for Igor's physical statistics but from his profile, posts and evident experience in helicopters you have no justification in accusing him, or anyone else, of "unadulterated drivel...wannabe".
Look to your own post for that.
Gawdelpus!
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Thankyou Piston Broke.
I will not even comment on the amateur remarks of the author of this thread.
I too was merely pointing out the foolhardiness in the use of non-approved fuels. If your going to spend the money on the machine in the first place, then you better be prepared for the costs involved in routine maintenance and servicing.
Where are you flying now? And for whom?
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
PS: CP, Thomas Coupling and Hoverboy can easily verify my background as well as anyone who has e-mailed me looking for a contact number at CHC Helicopters International. You may be familiar with them since Court is now CHC Africa.
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 06 April 2001).]
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 06 April 2001).]
I will not even comment on the amateur remarks of the author of this thread.
I too was merely pointing out the foolhardiness in the use of non-approved fuels. If your going to spend the money on the machine in the first place, then you better be prepared for the costs involved in routine maintenance and servicing.
Where are you flying now? And for whom?
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
PS: CP, Thomas Coupling and Hoverboy can easily verify my background as well as anyone who has e-mailed me looking for a contact number at CHC Helicopters International. You may be familiar with them since Court is now CHC Africa.
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 06 April 2001).]
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 06 April 2001).]
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However, to answer the original questions,
Effects on engines/FCU. Who knows? No testing has ever been done using this stuff as fuel if its not in the Alternative Fuels list in the manual. Starting characteristics (ie hot ones) possible, inability to restart, explosive restart, excessive EGT etc, uneven burn/hotspots in the combustor, I could go on. Additives in IP may rot seals in the FCU/tank/tank liner. Is the stuff clean? Water free? I suspect if youre the sort that uses this stuff youre unlikely to be punctilious enough to run it thru a chammy filter & water check it.
Insurance!!!Sh!t, do you even have to ask??? If IP is not in the Alternative Fuels list approved by the manufacturer and you use it even once there is no question that all warranties will be void, totally, and far more importantly that your C of A will be void too. Ditto your licence. And your employers AOC/Aerial work cert. And as for insurance. Zip. Period.
I take it you use insurance, licences, AOCs, etc wherever you come from CP, or do bits of used wrapping paper do instead?
Economically the cost saving is equivalent to running your Rolls Royce with time-ex chip shop frying oil in the sump instead of best Castrol - & thats not too bright, imho.
Now if its a matter of life and death, or if theres a war on, I suppose thats different, but for commercial work? NEVER
CP, good luck with your career, and save yourself the cost of life insurance cos that wont pay out either if you scribble yourself this way - self inflicted injury you see...
Effects on engines/FCU. Who knows? No testing has ever been done using this stuff as fuel if its not in the Alternative Fuels list in the manual. Starting characteristics (ie hot ones) possible, inability to restart, explosive restart, excessive EGT etc, uneven burn/hotspots in the combustor, I could go on. Additives in IP may rot seals in the FCU/tank/tank liner. Is the stuff clean? Water free? I suspect if youre the sort that uses this stuff youre unlikely to be punctilious enough to run it thru a chammy filter & water check it.
Insurance!!!Sh!t, do you even have to ask??? If IP is not in the Alternative Fuels list approved by the manufacturer and you use it even once there is no question that all warranties will be void, totally, and far more importantly that your C of A will be void too. Ditto your licence. And your employers AOC/Aerial work cert. And as for insurance. Zip. Period.
I take it you use insurance, licences, AOCs, etc wherever you come from CP, or do bits of used wrapping paper do instead?
Economically the cost saving is equivalent to running your Rolls Royce with time-ex chip shop frying oil in the sump instead of best Castrol - & thats not too bright, imho.
Now if its a matter of life and death, or if theres a war on, I suppose thats different, but for commercial work? NEVER
CP, good luck with your career, and save yourself the cost of life insurance cos that wont pay out either if you scribble yourself this way - self inflicted injury you see...
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Me lighten up..????? OK. Anyway thanx for the last replies. I conclude that the answer is NO and admit defeat gracefully and for the record have never used the stuff...I was just asking. Didn't know y'all were so hyped up!!.For the record [email protected] for any further coms and for fear of being branded a closet urinalologist-I retract any comments regarding male appendages.
PS I don't own any helicopters from Masquits to Mi-26....just sometimes curious.
PS I don't own any helicopters from Masquits to Mi-26....just sometimes curious.
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A further note as stated above. At least 15-20 crop spraying fixed wing pilots I know personally use Illuminating Paraffin full time i.e. 5-6 hrs per day since I have known them. They have never suffered any ill effects related to the use thereof as long as the normal precautions of transporting, storage,pumps etc are adhered to. They have no build up of sediment in the FCU's or any part of the engine, no problem with restarts or hot starts, no temp problems, no unusual exhaust smoke etc etc.
I do not know their insurance rammifications or there proposed life span and before you say "obviously short" - I could not agree with you more than "only use recommended fuel". I was interested though in the area of any OFFICIAL testing that anyone did know of.
Thanx again and safe flying....Big Boy.
I do not know their insurance rammifications or there proposed life span and before you say "obviously short" - I could not agree with you more than "only use recommended fuel". I was interested though in the area of any OFFICIAL testing that anyone did know of.
Thanx again and safe flying....Big Boy.
