Wingover
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IAS
Fully agree, this is what I tried to state with anticipation: you can not read 20 knts, but you may have an indication of that when seeing the IAS drop.
d3
d3
Both these manouevres should be 100% visual ones, not looking in at airspeed/bank/balance etc 
Don't forget: BALANCE which differentiates between the smooth slick end result and a very sloppy ragged one.
Don't forget: BALANCE which differentiates between the smooth slick end result and a very sloppy ragged one.
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TC
Agree, but -maybe wrongly- I first did this at high altitudes more than 1000 feet (before starting), and I felt that the visual clues were a little vage. Is perhaps an argument not to go too high.
Relying on pure external visual clues also links in with the arguments in this discussion about wind direction.
Maybe a related question that I wandered about: in refinement of the lesson 1 and 2 segmentation, what is the best progressive way to learn this maneuver ?. Especially in theetering rotors (cfr earlier remark of R22 pilot), you may want to avoid unusual attitudes.
Added : 1. Start on a windless day.
2. ....
d3
Relying on pure external visual clues also links in with the arguments in this discussion about wind direction.
Maybe a related question that I wandered about: in refinement of the lesson 1 and 2 segmentation, what is the best progressive way to learn this maneuver ?. Especially in theetering rotors (cfr earlier remark of R22 pilot), you may want to avoid unusual attitudes.
Added : 1. Start on a windless day.
2. ....
d3
Last edited by delta3; 29th Nov 2005 at 10:49.
D3 - to start wingovers use 20 -30 degrees nose up and 45 - 60 degrees AoB - that will give a nice gentle wingover and help sort out the coordination of controls (generally leave the collective alone during the wingover and fly it on cyclic) especially, as TC highlights, balance. Once happy then 45 nose up and 90 AoB are good figures to aim for. Wingovers in an R22 aren't a problem providing you don't chicken out and shove the nose forward (bunt) to recover from the nose up attitude.
To start pedal turns or torque turns use about 45 degrees nose up and once you are comfortable with the manoeuvre, gradually increase the amount of nose up until you chicken out or get to 90 degrees. Be warned, the cyclic inputs required as you yaw at the top of the manoeuvre may seem a little odd but you are compensating for the secondary effect of yaw which is roll and an element of flapback. Once you get as far as 90 degrees nose up for the manoeuvre, consider lowering the lever as that will help you track vertically.
Always best to fly with someone who can do these manoeuvres properly to learn them rather than try it out for yourself.
To start pedal turns or torque turns use about 45 degrees nose up and once you are comfortable with the manoeuvre, gradually increase the amount of nose up until you chicken out or get to 90 degrees. Be warned, the cyclic inputs required as you yaw at the top of the manoeuvre may seem a little odd but you are compensating for the secondary effect of yaw which is roll and an element of flapback. Once you get as far as 90 degrees nose up for the manoeuvre, consider lowering the lever as that will help you track vertically.
Always best to fly with someone who can do these manoeuvres properly to learn them rather than try it out for yourself.
Strongly concur with crabs last para. DO NOT attempt a torque turn unless very experienced in general AND on type. Make sure your first Torque turn is demonstrated by an experienced instructor
If you cock up that 90 degree nose up, you could end up - upside down or even side slipping backwards
Proper torque turns are borderline aerobatics - be warned.
If you cock up that 90 degree nose up, you could end up - upside down or even side slipping backwards
Proper torque turns are borderline aerobatics - be warned.
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Wing-overs are easy to fly. The danger is during the recovery.
The manoeuvre is generally taught at 300 ft agl. The height gained during the pull up could be 200 ft depending on pitch up angle.
The danger occurs during the recovery as the helicopter is accelerating downwards at the same rate as it was decelerated upwards. If the pilot does not level out at the entry height, ie 300 ft, but attempts to go much lower, he then has a much greater acceleration towards the ground, both vertically and horizontally. If he then attempts to recover with too much aft cyclic, he effectively “stalls” a large proportion of the rotor disc and the helicopter continues to descend. If he now pulls collective he increases the amount of “stall” and hits the ground! The only recovery is to reduce the aft cyclic input (difficult when you are approaching the ground fast).
This is a gotcha for even experienced pilots.
The manoeuvre is generally taught at 300 ft agl. The height gained during the pull up could be 200 ft depending on pitch up angle.
The danger occurs during the recovery as the helicopter is accelerating downwards at the same rate as it was decelerated upwards. If the pilot does not level out at the entry height, ie 300 ft, but attempts to go much lower, he then has a much greater acceleration towards the ground, both vertically and horizontally. If he then attempts to recover with too much aft cyclic, he effectively “stalls” a large proportion of the rotor disc and the helicopter continues to descend. If he now pulls collective he increases the amount of “stall” and hits the ground! The only recovery is to reduce the aft cyclic input (difficult when you are approaching the ground fast).
This is a gotcha for even experienced pilots.
I think Skitz was criticising FLIs post regarding retreating blade stall during high speed recovery from a wingover/torque turn. FLI forgets how much you have to push forward cyclic just to overcome flapback so excess speed is a result of excess forward cyclic - not somthing that comes naturally to most pilots.
