Night Vision Goggles (NVG discussions merged)
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One of the things that makes these items so expensive, is the twister.
The lense system would produce an upside-down image, so the tubes incorporate a bundle of fibre-optic threads twisted through 180 deg.
Why a simple lense can't be used, i have no idea.
Having flown a lot of hours with them in th RN I held out against them as a ploice pilot. Over urban areas they would be useless, and in our area there was little else. I can see their usefulness to D & C as Dartmoor at night without gogs would be a dangerous place to be.
The lense system would produce an upside-down image, so the tubes incorporate a bundle of fibre-optic threads twisted through 180 deg.
Why a simple lense can't be used, i have no idea.
Having flown a lot of hours with them in th RN I held out against them as a ploice pilot. Over urban areas they would be useless, and in our area there was little else. I can see their usefulness to D & C as Dartmoor at night without gogs would be a dangerous place to be.
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I'm a Police pilot with the Victoria police Air Wing in Melbourne Australia. I have used NVGs in the Military and now we are seriously considering them here in the Force. We operate IFR Dauphines (2 off) on 24 hour shifts on both EMS and Police ops both Metro and country (The Air Wing covers the whole Victorian state (approx the same size as whole of GB). The terrain varies from fairly flat desert to mountainous terrain.
All I can say is that if I had a choice between flying with NVGs or unaided I'll always pick using the NVGs. Sure they have limits but these can be overcome with training and experience. I'm not advocationg that they should be used to do NOE or multi-ship assualts onto target areas but instead thay would make night navigation sooo much easier and safer.
Our philosophy is that pilots must be IFR rated and current and flying an IFR Helo. Both the pilot and observer in the front seats must be goggled at same time but the GIB won't as he may have to operate the FLIR.
As for cockpit mods. Well if you have paid 100,000 pounds then you've been had!!!! We got an approx quote of 20,000 pounds to do a Dauphin cockpit which is larger than the EC135 and even if you double that price its still way less than the 100,000 suggested. And that was from an UK firm (Oxley Avionics. You can do it for even less if you use the system that Rocky Mountain Helicopters (with the help of Red Wing Aviation) in the States did for their Mama One EMS chopper. You need to shop around!!!
Anyway I have a powerpoint presentation that we put together here on CD if anyone would like a copy please email me and I'll send it (but not too many otherwise the postage will kill me)....
[This message has been edited by NASUS (edited 12 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by NASUS (edited 12 June 2001).]
All I can say is that if I had a choice between flying with NVGs or unaided I'll always pick using the NVGs. Sure they have limits but these can be overcome with training and experience. I'm not advocationg that they should be used to do NOE or multi-ship assualts onto target areas but instead thay would make night navigation sooo much easier and safer.
Our philosophy is that pilots must be IFR rated and current and flying an IFR Helo. Both the pilot and observer in the front seats must be goggled at same time but the GIB won't as he may have to operate the FLIR.
As for cockpit mods. Well if you have paid 100,000 pounds then you've been had!!!! We got an approx quote of 20,000 pounds to do a Dauphin cockpit which is larger than the EC135 and even if you double that price its still way less than the 100,000 suggested. And that was from an UK firm (Oxley Avionics. You can do it for even less if you use the system that Rocky Mountain Helicopters (with the help of Red Wing Aviation) in the States did for their Mama One EMS chopper. You need to shop around!!!
Anyway I have a powerpoint presentation that we put together here on CD if anyone would like a copy please email me and I'll send it (but not too many otherwise the postage will kill me)....
[This message has been edited by NASUS (edited 12 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by NASUS (edited 12 June 2001).]
Guest
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For what its worth, I've been doing all kinds of research into NVGs for civilians for my graduate research project. The prices I've come across for NVG compatible cockpit mods for the 2 EMS operations currently certified here in the US were approx $12,000 USD for the MAMA One BO-105 and approx $23,000 USD for the Mercy Air Ambulance AStar in Redding, CA. Big difference between the two are block lighting for the MAMA and integrated lighting for the Mercy birds. Each have their own advantages and disadvantages.
As for goggle costs...the current quote I received for ITT F4949 (AN/AVS-9) NVGs were about $9,000 per set. Add another $1,000 for a helmet, goggle mount, and battery pack.
My rough cost analysis for a 3 helicopter, 10 goggle set operation was approx $175,000 USD.
As for NVGs in urban areas...one of the most surpising outcomes of my research survey is that many (about 75%) of Law Enforcement members that have responded are using NVGs right now (public use aircraft -- don't have same FAA requirements as EMS). Most are urban ops and most have stated that they wouldn't fly without them anymore. One respondent stated "If our goggles are out of service, our helicopters are out of service". Interesting.
As for goggle costs...the current quote I received for ITT F4949 (AN/AVS-9) NVGs were about $9,000 per set. Add another $1,000 for a helmet, goggle mount, and battery pack.
My rough cost analysis for a 3 helicopter, 10 goggle set operation was approx $175,000 USD.
As for NVGs in urban areas...one of the most surpising outcomes of my research survey is that many (about 75%) of Law Enforcement members that have responded are using NVGs right now (public use aircraft -- don't have same FAA requirements as EMS). Most are urban ops and most have stated that they wouldn't fly without them anymore. One respondent stated "If our goggles are out of service, our helicopters are out of service". Interesting.
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Although I usually find myself agreeing with Arkroyal, particularly with his contributions to the Chinook thread, I have to differ re his comments about using NVG in urban/ extensively culturally-illuminated areas. Although my current area of ops is primarily jungle, we also have urban tasking and the occasional maritime/ offshore energy installation job. I cheerfully use (and teach the people here to use) NVG in all areas - the only time I move them up out of line of sight is during the final stage of a low-level approach to an oil rig (the other pilot on the 'dark' side of the aircraft keeps his down and monitors the situation ready to take over if I lose references) . Under all other circumstances, the picture obtained by combined use of NVG (which are only Gen2+, by the way) and peripheral unaided vision is far more useful than that available with the Mk1 eyeball alone. I wouldn't go so far as to say 'no NVG, no fly', but I'd rather have them than not.
Over the jungle, we use a combination of focused (sp?)white lights, diffuse IR (Brightstar) and NVG to provide the optimum picture for hovering over the canopy to winch out troops or casualties. Most of the LPs, although OK by day, are in our opinion too small to risk landing by night. We get a better picture by using the treetops as our hover references. Not a tactical application, simply best use of resources to get a proper peacetime job done.
Over the jungle, we use a combination of focused (sp?)white lights, diffuse IR (Brightstar) and NVG to provide the optimum picture for hovering over the canopy to winch out troops or casualties. Most of the LPs, although OK by day, are in our opinion too small to risk landing by night. We get a better picture by using the treetops as our hover references. Not a tactical application, simply best use of resources to get a proper peacetime job done.
Guest
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Can those of you who fly police/ems ops and utilise NVG on certain ocassions, tell me whether you fly with them permanently fitted to the helmet, or take them off in between use. If they are kept on, when does neck/head/strain kick in?
many thanks, in advance
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Thermal runaway.
many thanks, in advance
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Thermal runaway.
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To Mightygem. Sure from a military perspective multi-ship formation at NOE heights is what it is all about (but the hazards are greater) BUT not from a civil use perspective which is what Police and EMS/SAR is all about. Sure there might be the odd occasion where a fast rope insertion might be required for our special police ops but again would only be one acft and rare.
Therefore if Gen 3+ ANVIS is used in the emergency services perspective to get from A to B at night below LSALT over hilly country it is quite, quite safe and probably safer than having to punch into IMC and then trying to find a suitable letdown (which is never at the location you want to go)or pick-up icing. Like everything in aviation it has limitations but ones that can be overcome to make it a damn good aid to night flying.
Therefore if Gen 3+ ANVIS is used in the emergency services perspective to get from A to B at night below LSALT over hilly country it is quite, quite safe and probably safer than having to punch into IMC and then trying to find a suitable letdown (which is never at the location you want to go)or pick-up icing. Like everything in aviation it has limitations but ones that can be overcome to make it a damn good aid to night flying.
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TC
If multi-crew (eg working with observer or crewman), goggling-up is straightforward with the non-handler passing the NVG from the box to the pilot. With practice, Nightbird/Nightop can be fitted using only the left hand in seconds. Longest I've done at low level is 8h 30m out of a 10 hr sortie - slept well the next morning. No major discomfort, though.
If multi-crew (eg working with observer or crewman), goggling-up is straightforward with the non-handler passing the NVG from the box to the pilot. With practice, Nightbird/Nightop can be fitted using only the left hand in seconds. Longest I've done at low level is 8h 30m out of a 10 hr sortie - slept well the next morning. No major discomfort, though.
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I agree with Mightygem and T&B that wearing goggles is OK. A weight bag is essential and a GOOD fitting helmet.....and this is an issue in it's own. Normally in police and EMS work wouldn't have to wear them for more than 2 hours in one hit as by then we have to refuel and stretch our legs.
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REGA, the Swiss rescue agency, initially train their helo pilots on NVG by getting them to ride bicycles on a pitch black airfield!
A very cheap and ingenious way to introduce them to the necessary head movements required to gain adequate visual information.
A very cheap and ingenious way to introduce them to the necessary head movements required to gain adequate visual information.
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Actually yes there is an interesting little effect called pink eye. Basically, after about half an hour or so on the goggles, your eyes adjust to only looking at the green part of the light spectrum. Going back to conditions where everything is lit by white light, everything has a kind of pink tint to it. The effect doesn't last long and depends how long you were using the goggles for.
My longest period was just over 4 1/2 hours and it took about 1/2 hour for my vision to return to normal. MightyGem used to teach this stuff so he could probably offer a more in depth explanation.
My longest period was just over 4 1/2 hours and it took about 1/2 hour for my vision to return to normal. MightyGem used to teach this stuff so he could probably offer a more in depth explanation.
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My few pennies worth...like anything else, the more you fly with goggles the more you become comfortable with them (and the bigger your neck muscles become!). I've had a set mounted on my helmet (not necessarily always in the down position though) for over 7 hours on an attempt to rescue a Japanese fisherman in the north atlantic a few years back. My whole body hurt after that nasty mission. In any event, our normal NVG training sorties are in the 3-5 hour range and the goggles are always on (except for the odd "leak" check). The goggles have a loop of cord that allows you to dismount them and let them hang down from your neck. They can be easily re-mounted with 1 hand with minimum practice. We don't do that much on tactical sorties but will do it if transitioning to instruments or required to fly over downtown (Las Vegas) at altitude. I still wear them for every landing if I have them (which is always if planning on being out after dark).
Senis Semper Fidelis
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NVG and the RAF
I have just read that the RAF Helicopters were unable to assist the SAS whilst on some night incursion work in Afghanistan, reason given was that the RAF heli's don't have the ability to fly in the dark. Now please forgive me for being a little simple minded, but if you have NVG and associated birds, what else is needed to fly in the dark, or has some vital piece of info been missed out here?. . <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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It'll sound like I'm bitchin' - and I probably am ....... but the RAF operate similar ( but not exactly the same)rules to Civilian professional pilots for duty hour time. Now it has always struck me as strange that the RAF use these rules (being a military outfit used to flexible and unplanned ops) .... but they do quote 'duty hours' and I have seen it up close and personal in situations I can't go into in this forum.
So the reason for not night flying might be that they flew during the day and have busted their crew duty time ...... who knows? It might be cos their NVG were U/S?
Please consider this in the category of 'Cat thrown in with Pigeons' - I am convinced I will receive that kind of reaction ...... hey we're here for some fun aren't we?
So the reason for not night flying might be that they flew during the day and have busted their crew duty time ...... who knows? It might be cos their NVG were U/S?
Please consider this in the category of 'Cat thrown in with Pigeons' - I am convinced I will receive that kind of reaction ...... hey we're here for some fun aren't we?
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NVGs still need some light to magnify. Not enough light to magnify seems to be the probable reason. As for the crew duty time theory - nonsense.. .AP <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
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I would cetainly favour the theory of lack of starlight making the use of NVGs unuseable.
As to Duty Periods, it is true that the RAF have duty times that work in a similar way to civil operators, but they are usually only applied during peace/training sorties. Operations such as Afghanistan would work on different limitations no doubt worked out by those "in theatre". If crews are required to night fly, they will be given the adequate rest prior to being needed.
As to Duty Periods, it is true that the RAF have duty times that work in a similar way to civil operators, but they are usually only applied during peace/training sorties. Operations such as Afghanistan would work on different limitations no doubt worked out by those "in theatre". If crews are required to night fly, they will be given the adequate rest prior to being needed.