r22 rollover
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r22 rollover
From the Ananova news website:
Two escape as frost downs helicopter
Two men have narrowly escaped injury after a helicopter toppled over on take-off because part of its undercarriage was frozen to the ground.
The privately-owned R22 helicopter was attempting to take-off from Gamston, Nottingham.
A spokeswoman for Nottinghamshire Police says the two occupants were not seriously injured, but one was taken to Bassetlaw District General Hospital, suffering from shock.
The spokeswoman said: "In trying to take off one of the helicopter pads was frozen to the ground. This caused the helicopter to topple over. There are no serious injuries to the two men inside."
Fire crews went to the scene and air investigators informed, the spokeswoman added.
Two escape as frost downs helicopter
Two men have narrowly escaped injury after a helicopter toppled over on take-off because part of its undercarriage was frozen to the ground.
The privately-owned R22 helicopter was attempting to take-off from Gamston, Nottingham.
A spokeswoman for Nottinghamshire Police says the two occupants were not seriously injured, but one was taken to Bassetlaw District General Hospital, suffering from shock.
The spokeswoman said: "In trying to take off one of the helicopter pads was frozen to the ground. This caused the helicopter to topple over. There are no serious injuries to the two men inside."
Fire crews went to the scene and air investigators informed, the spokeswoman added.
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The Robinson POH addresses Dynamic Rollover and tells the pilot what to do in order to counter this condition. That countermeasure is to dump collective when the pilot becomes aware that he is in that condition. I can see it now, Robinson will ammend Safety Notice SN-9 to tell the pilot to check for freezing of the skids to the ground and add a new piece of kit to the helicopter support equipment. An M1A1 MkI Ice pick.
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The Cat
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The Cat
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Well, if he does it will be due to litigation gone mad on your side of the pond (and coming this way too).
Another company in my neck of the woods recently had a B206 thrash itself (and the pilot) to death before falling off the edge of the platform. The cause? the pilot forgot to check that all 3 tie downs were removed, it only takes one. Can't see Bell adding that to the FM though, some things just have to be left to airmanship.
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Another day in paradise
Another company in my neck of the woods recently had a B206 thrash itself (and the pilot) to death before falling off the edge of the platform. The cause? the pilot forgot to check that all 3 tie downs were removed, it only takes one. Can't see Bell adding that to the FM though, some things just have to be left to airmanship.
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Another day in paradise
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The Robinson POH advice on DR (and the safety
course material for that matter) is good, as far as it goes.
Trouble is that it might channel thought in one direction only, ie. when drift is allowed during take off or landing.
When a skid is frozen to the ground or obstructed the hapless Pilot may be pulling increasing amounts of collective, wondering why it feels so heavy and the WHACK! It's all over for the little beast(hopefully the occupants will not be injured).
The Heli. must act a little like a taut catapult. Whatever holds the skid lets go and in a very short time......
In reaction to this occurrence I have written
some advice for Pilots to take BEFORE any take off is attempted. It will go into my version 2 website (to be online from Xmas)
and I would appreciate you opinion(s) on it.
Follows-
A Helicopter may be landed on a frozen surface without the Pilot being aware of the danger that awaits. Latent heat from a skid or wheel may melt ice on the surface which can refreeze shortly afterward. It can be very strongly bonded to the surface. Dynamic can end the next (very short) flight. Check that skids or wheels are free before attempting to take off. Use a lever if you have to (it can be done with a length of timber in preference to metal which may cause damage).
For an R22 Pilot the initial check is easy to perform, no lever required. Gently pull down on the tail in the same way as you would check the TR gearbox oil level. If the front of the skids lift readily then it is less likely (but not impossible) that the heels are stuck. If there is any resistance don't hang from the tail but be suspicious and move on to the lever check. (It is unlikely that the heels of the skids would 'dig in' to a grass surface by lowering the tail as it is harder when frozen but use your judgement.)
Regards
SPS
course material for that matter) is good, as far as it goes.
Trouble is that it might channel thought in one direction only, ie. when drift is allowed during take off or landing.
When a skid is frozen to the ground or obstructed the hapless Pilot may be pulling increasing amounts of collective, wondering why it feels so heavy and the WHACK! It's all over for the little beast(hopefully the occupants will not be injured).
The Heli. must act a little like a taut catapult. Whatever holds the skid lets go and in a very short time......
In reaction to this occurrence I have written
some advice for Pilots to take BEFORE any take off is attempted. It will go into my version 2 website (to be online from Xmas)
and I would appreciate you opinion(s) on it.
Follows-
A Helicopter may be landed on a frozen surface without the Pilot being aware of the danger that awaits. Latent heat from a skid or wheel may melt ice on the surface which can refreeze shortly afterward. It can be very strongly bonded to the surface. Dynamic can end the next (very short) flight. Check that skids or wheels are free before attempting to take off. Use a lever if you have to (it can be done with a length of timber in preference to metal which may cause damage).
For an R22 Pilot the initial check is easy to perform, no lever required. Gently pull down on the tail in the same way as you would check the TR gearbox oil level. If the front of the skids lift readily then it is less likely (but not impossible) that the heels are stuck. If there is any resistance don't hang from the tail but be suspicious and move on to the lever check. (It is unlikely that the heels of the skids would 'dig in' to a grass surface by lowering the tail as it is harder when frozen but use your judgement.)
Regards
SPS
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I truly hope you are trying to joke Lu, no mod is necessary, no POH amendment is necessary. Proper pre-flight is required (assuming the stated cause is correct).
And you don't have to dump collective as long as you performed your proper pre-flight preparations and were paying attention.
And you don't have to dump collective as long as you performed your proper pre-flight preparations and were paying attention.
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As one of the most important parts of the pre flight check is to pull down the tail and check the tail rotor gearbox level, hopefully this should catch this problem as described above.. Whereas we are very aware from training of the need not to have any sideways drift as you lift off, if both skids were frozen down you would not realise until the thing came unstuck with a great leap into the air. Nasty!
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Very funny.
Just be mindful of this -
(A)Every time a robbie 'falls over' the potential exists for someone to lose their life. All lives are worth the same.
(B) Every time it happens the whole industry is damaged, not just a small helicopter that attracts ridicule from the industry's upper strata.
(C)Public perception of Helicopters in general and the industry as a whole needs to be improved. Every accident counts on the public scoreboard, whether it involves an R22 or a V22. The public make no distinction. A Helicopter is a Helicopter and that is that.
(D)Everyone in the industry should (could) be pulling in the same direction, whether a lowly 'C' cat (which I am proud to be)or the highest powered cat.
I'll carry on doing what I can to improve things and leave this with you.
Just be mindful of this -
(A)Every time a robbie 'falls over' the potential exists for someone to lose their life. All lives are worth the same.
(B) Every time it happens the whole industry is damaged, not just a small helicopter that attracts ridicule from the industry's upper strata.
(C)Public perception of Helicopters in general and the industry as a whole needs to be improved. Every accident counts on the public scoreboard, whether it involves an R22 or a V22. The public make no distinction. A Helicopter is a Helicopter and that is that.
(D)Everyone in the industry should (could) be pulling in the same direction, whether a lowly 'C' cat (which I am proud to be)or the highest powered cat.
I'll carry on doing what I can to improve things and leave this with you.
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My initial post was placed not in response to the story about the problem of a frozen skid but to a post placed by Helidrvr regarding Occams Razor which stated that Robinson shifts the responsibility to the pilot in order to absolve themselves from responsibility.
I added the Icepick as a bit of humor. When the post was made about the latent heat of the skids or wheels causing the snow or ice to melt and refreeze I ,with a bit of humor posted the thing about the Exhaust being ducted through the skids. Another post was made about the helicopter being frozen til spring. I assumed that that post was made also in humor and I made my response about one less Robbie.
If you look at my bio and have read my posts you will have noted that I support aviation safety. I once knew a guy that was crewing a Hiller H-23. They had just Dropped the Governor of Mass. on a roof top landing platform and when they took off the APU was still connected. The helicopter tipped and fell about 20 feet. the blades hit the ground and the stub of one blade flexed down and seriously damaged my friend in the area of his chest and arm pit.
I think on my following posts I should indicate what is fact and what is posted in humor.
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The Cat
I added the Icepick as a bit of humor. When the post was made about the latent heat of the skids or wheels causing the snow or ice to melt and refreeze I ,with a bit of humor posted the thing about the Exhaust being ducted through the skids. Another post was made about the helicopter being frozen til spring. I assumed that that post was made also in humor and I made my response about one less Robbie.
If you look at my bio and have read my posts you will have noted that I support aviation safety. I once knew a guy that was crewing a Hiller H-23. They had just Dropped the Governor of Mass. on a roof top landing platform and when they took off the APU was still connected. The helicopter tipped and fell about 20 feet. the blades hit the ground and the stub of one blade flexed down and seriously damaged my friend in the area of his chest and arm pit.
I think on my following posts I should indicate what is fact and what is posted in humor.
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The Cat
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Pleased that the pilot and pax weren't injured. It must have been a terrifying experience.
A lesson (or reminder) to us all.
Lu
You've livened up this forum. Well done.
One small request, try to resist the temptation to use every topic to make anti Robinson remarks!
A lesson (or reminder) to us all.
Lu
You've livened up this forum. Well done.
One small request, try to resist the temptation to use every topic to make anti Robinson remarks!
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To: Hoverman
Truth be told, I think that the Robinson helicopters are quite good helicopters for what they can do. My problem is that I feel that the restrictions placed on them by the POHs makes them uncertifiable because they can't meet the FAA requirements to demonstrate sideslip and out of trim flight. It is not to say that they can't do these things it is that they are restricted from doing them (see Helidrvrs' post on Occams' Razor somewhere on this forum).
My major thrust in writing my report was to get Robinson to go to a three bladed rotor system. I even offered a design for the system that would use their existing blades.
The three blade system would incorporate offset hinges that would allow lead lag and flapping. Even if they were not to use this design the three blade system would offer a larger cg travel and at the same time eliminate the problems of zero G and most of all the problems related to the 18-degree offset would go away.
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The Cat
[This message has been edited by Lu Zuckerman (edited 17 December 2000).]
Truth be told, I think that the Robinson helicopters are quite good helicopters for what they can do. My problem is that I feel that the restrictions placed on them by the POHs makes them uncertifiable because they can't meet the FAA requirements to demonstrate sideslip and out of trim flight. It is not to say that they can't do these things it is that they are restricted from doing them (see Helidrvrs' post on Occams' Razor somewhere on this forum).
My major thrust in writing my report was to get Robinson to go to a three bladed rotor system. I even offered a design for the system that would use their existing blades.
The three blade system would incorporate offset hinges that would allow lead lag and flapping. Even if they were not to use this design the three blade system would offer a larger cg travel and at the same time eliminate the problems of zero G and most of all the problems related to the 18-degree offset would go away.
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The Cat
[This message has been edited by Lu Zuckerman (edited 17 December 2000).]
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With regard to the original thread of the Robbo accident..........
The aircraft was located at a private house some 800m from the airfield boundary at Gamston and had remained on the ground all night prior to attempting its ill fated depature.
As we were the first emergency service allocated to the incident, I find it very surprising (or not in the case of a PPL pilot, no disrespect intended!) that the pilot had not phoned or called Gamston to inform them of his intention to depart within the ATZ. Do we still teach airmanship these days?
Additionally, on informing D&D,(we did this enroute) they contacted Gamston who denied any knowledge of any such incident, therefore degrading the response of SAR.
So it was with much confusion that we actually located the incident. Fortunately, both occupants only suffered minor injuries and the aircraft had actually bounced back onto its skids after suffering the roll over, therefore minimising any spillage of fuel etc. However, I don't expect there will be much change out of 60k for the repair bill!
I was a little disappointed by the response of the pilot to one of the paramedics who stated that it was all a fuss about nothing.
However, I'll put that down to shock!
I just hope that if I am ever in such a situation, that I end up with a medical helicopter, police helicopter, SAR helicopter, 3 fire tenders, 4 ambulances, 6 police cars, all on scene within 15 minutes!
The aircraft was located at a private house some 800m from the airfield boundary at Gamston and had remained on the ground all night prior to attempting its ill fated depature.
As we were the first emergency service allocated to the incident, I find it very surprising (or not in the case of a PPL pilot, no disrespect intended!) that the pilot had not phoned or called Gamston to inform them of his intention to depart within the ATZ. Do we still teach airmanship these days?
Additionally, on informing D&D,(we did this enroute) they contacted Gamston who denied any knowledge of any such incident, therefore degrading the response of SAR.
So it was with much confusion that we actually located the incident. Fortunately, both occupants only suffered minor injuries and the aircraft had actually bounced back onto its skids after suffering the roll over, therefore minimising any spillage of fuel etc. However, I don't expect there will be much change out of 60k for the repair bill!
I was a little disappointed by the response of the pilot to one of the paramedics who stated that it was all a fuss about nothing.
However, I'll put that down to shock!
I just hope that if I am ever in such a situation, that I end up with a medical helicopter, police helicopter, SAR helicopter, 3 fire tenders, 4 ambulances, 6 police cars, all on scene within 15 minutes!
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I too am glad no-one was hurt, and pleased to hear your comments Lu. Thanks.
to muffin: if the skids suddenly come unstuck at a very high power setting then there is a problem. Prior to flight you MUST be aware of your expected hover power. With this knowledge any excess collective while still on the ground is an alarm bell that should be going beserk in your head. I've had many skids stick to the ground for a variety of reasons, and so far have had no rollovers for this reason.
Also, the proper R22 preflight where the tail is lowered moves the contact point with the ground aft of the rear contact while skids level. This should break most of the stickiness.
to muffin: if the skids suddenly come unstuck at a very high power setting then there is a problem. Prior to flight you MUST be aware of your expected hover power. With this knowledge any excess collective while still on the ground is an alarm bell that should be going beserk in your head. I've had many skids stick to the ground for a variety of reasons, and so far have had no rollovers for this reason.
Also, the proper R22 preflight where the tail is lowered moves the contact point with the ground aft of the rear contact while skids level. This should break most of the stickiness.
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Muffin is correct HT, and so are you. Problem is that they likely did this at the beginning of their flight, and not before attempting to take off from their location.
I'll always do a full pre-flight before first flight of the day. Teletemps, GB oil and fuel levels, sump gas, and a precautionary glance over prior to any remaining liftoffs (if I've been flying it without interruption for the duration, otherwise another full preflight)
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Marc
I'll always do a full pre-flight before first flight of the day. Teletemps, GB oil and fuel levels, sump gas, and a precautionary glance over prior to any remaining liftoffs (if I've been flying it without interruption for the duration, otherwise another full preflight)
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Marc
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Found a piece of paper tucked in my R22 Operating Handbook, not sure where it came from, maybe the Robo Safety course?:
"Helicopter operations in snow - Robinson R22:.....If skids stick to the ground on t/o lower lever immediately to stop dynamic roll over." Doh...
No-one seems to have mentioned the other "precaution" (or way of dislodging it, depending on the helo), i.e shuffling it round on the ground with the yaw pedals).
I wouldn't dare offer any advice without first taking out several million bucks' worth of legal insurance, but just thought these ought to be mentioned.
"Helicopter operations in snow - Robinson R22:.....If skids stick to the ground on t/o lower lever immediately to stop dynamic roll over." Doh...
No-one seems to have mentioned the other "precaution" (or way of dislodging it, depending on the helo), i.e shuffling it round on the ground with the yaw pedals).
I wouldn't dare offer any advice without first taking out several million bucks' worth of legal insurance, but just thought these ought to be mentioned.
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RW-1,
According to jacquestall: "The aircraft was located at a private house some 800m from the airfield boundary at Gamston and had remained on the ground all night prior to attempting its ill fated departure".
Sounds like this was the first flight of the day. So how come they didn't do a full preflight check and realise the skids were frozen to the ground? Sounds an awful lot like carelessness to me, unless I'm missing something here.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
According to jacquestall: "The aircraft was located at a private house some 800m from the airfield boundary at Gamston and had remained on the ground all night prior to attempting its ill fated departure".
Sounds like this was the first flight of the day. So how come they didn't do a full preflight check and realise the skids were frozen to the ground? Sounds an awful lot like carelessness to me, unless I'm missing something here.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.