View Poll Results: ##########
##########
0
0%
##########
0
0%
Voters: 0. This poll is closed
Apache
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 0
From: Wiltshire
MF,
Going back to my rotary days I thought the ZSU thing aslo had an optical aquire capability?
Meaning it would not have to "lite up" and bearing in mind it's cyclic rate and low level aquisistion capability it's a fairly scary thought.
all spelling mistakes sre "df" alcohol induced
Going back to my rotary days I thought the ZSU thing aslo had an optical aquire capability?
Meaning it would not have to "lite up" and bearing in mind it's cyclic rate and low level aquisistion capability it's a fairly scary thought.
all spelling mistakes sre "df" alcohol induced
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
From: Europe
Correct......but we did start this discussion with the helicopter being behind trees which would stop optical tracking and force the use of radar scanning. This coupled with the use of the words on and off for the gun would imply that radar was used throughout.
All im saying is that yes the 23/4 is a big problem to older helicopters without any defensive aids, but in todays climate you'd have to be a brave man to turn one of those things on....as you would attract a monumental amount of attention to yourself.
Ask the guys and girls that operate the no fly zones
All im saying is that yes the 23/4 is a big problem to older helicopters without any defensive aids, but in todays climate you'd have to be a brave man to turn one of those things on....as you would attract a monumental amount of attention to yourself.
Ask the guys and girls that operate the no fly zones
Iconoclast
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,132
Likes: 0
From: The home of Dudley Dooright-Where the lead dog is the only one that gets a change of scenery.
Yeah but.....
How many trees do you expect to find in Iraq? You have to understand that the Apache was designed for a major land war in Europe and it was the Army’s' version of the A-10 Warthog in that it would get down and dirty with the tanks and armored vehicles. With the installation of the hellfire missiles the Apache could be used as a standoff weapons system. A further development was the inclusion of a mast mounted mm Wave RADAR which allowed the apache to observe the enemy while hiding behind trees or natural obstructions such as hills or rock projections.
I will adjust my first comments to state "How many trees, natural obstructions, hills or rock projections do you expect to find in Iraq"?
The ZSU-23-4 I believe has RADAR, optical and IR sighting capability and if it is used by the armed forces of Iraq it can defeat all of defensive systems on the Apache except the M1
Mk1 eyeball of the pilot gunner and then they may be on an even playing field.
And if the fighting is at night there is an excellent chance that the static corona discharge from the blades will provide a very good target.
I will adjust my first comments to state "How many trees, natural obstructions, hills or rock projections do you expect to find in Iraq"?
The ZSU-23-4 I believe has RADAR, optical and IR sighting capability and if it is used by the armed forces of Iraq it can defeat all of defensive systems on the Apache except the M1
Mk1 eyeball of the pilot gunner and then they may be on an even playing field.
And if the fighting is at night there is an excellent chance that the static corona discharge from the blades will provide a very good target.
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
Lu.......
These youngsters fail to remember.....Even the bad guys have good days!
Lu's point...despite its delivery is valid.....Grenada proved him correct....read up on the losses there.
If the weapon is in a very open area....and only the Apaches are around....and if the gunner uses optical sighting.....and is patient....an Apache is in trouble big time. After that....I dare say....it will be 72 Virgins time for the gunner and nearby mates. They can also hide in built up areas.....low flying helicopters....particularly with the "hover in place" tactics can make you a very easy target if the bad guy can see you.
Young lads....do not underestimate your enemy....they are thinkers too....expect the worst...hope for the best...but be prepared. You run around thinking you are invincible and bullet proof...and you will get a rude shock.
These youngsters fail to remember.....Even the bad guys have good days!
Lu's point...despite its delivery is valid.....Grenada proved him correct....read up on the losses there.
If the weapon is in a very open area....and only the Apaches are around....and if the gunner uses optical sighting.....and is patient....an Apache is in trouble big time. After that....I dare say....it will be 72 Virgins time for the gunner and nearby mates. They can also hide in built up areas.....low flying helicopters....particularly with the "hover in place" tactics can make you a very easy target if the bad guy can see you.
Young lads....do not underestimate your enemy....they are thinkers too....expect the worst...hope for the best...but be prepared. You run around thinking you are invincible and bullet proof...and you will get a rude shock.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
From: Europe
OK...answer me this.....during the gulf
How many aircraft were lost to ZSU 23/4? (Rotary)
Note....
I know of at least one ZSU 23/4 destroyed by Apache/s
I appreciate the complexity of the issue, and i also understand the defensive as well as offensive capability of the UK AH. There are several factors at work here and I was merely responding to the situation described in Yugoslavia....which is as SASless described in the ideal AH environment...
How many aircraft were lost to ZSU 23/4? (Rotary)
Note....
I know of at least one ZSU 23/4 destroyed by Apache/s
I appreciate the complexity of the issue, and i also understand the defensive as well as offensive capability of the UK AH. There are several factors at work here and I was merely responding to the situation described in Yugoslavia....which is as SASless described in the ideal AH environment...
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
From: Dansaff
Like a lot of ageing Military Helicopter Pilots I spent most of my time flying an unarmed aircraft with the prospect of fighting ADAs like the ZSU with a 9mm pistol. Having spent a number of years flying the AH64 I know what I would rather be in if faced with any ADA. I think Lu is barking up a tree here and I cant really see the point of the argument. Who cares what the US Military said or did not say to their Pilots? Maybe its their own fault for being so gullable.
The Apache is an awesome machine, but like any helicopter is not invulnerable or invisible but in the right hands will survive longer than any unarmed aircraft in the same environment.
The Apache is an awesome machine, but like any helicopter is not invulnerable or invisible but in the right hands will survive longer than any unarmed aircraft in the same environment.
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
From: UK
The 64 last saw active service in Afgahnistan, where it got right into the mix, up close with the GI's, doing what it is very good at. Let us not forget that it is a weapon of war, and it pilots young and old will have to put themselves in harms way in the execution of their orders. The good news was, every aircraft flew back and every pilot got home alive. The 64 did what it said it would on the tin!
I think that every soldier realises that the hierarchy tell the odd white lie in order to make the lads feel good before going over the top. I reckon telling pilots "the bad guys in ZSU's can't hit you", isn't such a whopper.
Good luck to everyone in the Attack fraternity who is doing the job in the sand right now.
I think that every soldier realises that the hierarchy tell the odd white lie in order to make the lads feel good before going over the top. I reckon telling pilots "the bad guys in ZSU's can't hit you", isn't such a whopper.
Good luck to everyone in the Attack fraternity who is doing the job in the sand right now.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Lu,
The RPM on the Zsu - Is that per gun, or all 4? if it's per gun, then thats 4800 rpm, or a blizzard of lead.
The Canadians used an improvised Sherman in the latter days of WW2, mounting 4x .50 cal Brownings, as an ANTI-INFANTRY device.
It worked bloody well too, from all reports. Does the Zoo have a ground to ground capability?
The RPM on the Zsu - Is that per gun, or all 4? if it's per gun, then thats 4800 rpm, or a blizzard of lead.
The Canadians used an improvised Sherman in the latter days of WW2, mounting 4x .50 cal Brownings, as an ANTI-INFANTRY device.
It worked bloody well too, from all reports. Does the Zoo have a ground to ground capability?
