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Apache
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dansaff
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That is a really good read and for those of us fortunate enough to fly Apaches or just work with them this comes as no suprise. I think you have to accept some degree of 'talking it up' from the Army Times which after all, has a mandate to deliver all that is good in the US Army and not dwell on anything detrimental. But for me the capability of the Apache has never been in doubt and I'm delighted to see that it's proving itself in harsh conditions.
I've followed this thread with some interest and wonder about the agendas of some people.
The UK Apache training programme run by the AAC for the Army on behalf of the entire Armed Forces will continue and succeed despite the sniping by ill informed puppets, it will not deploy to the gulf to prove itself because the bigger picture wont allow that, also the US seem to be proving it very well so why take that risk?
The last point and not one to be missed is the absoloute bravery and dedication shown by these US Apache Pilots, hats off!!!
I've followed this thread with some interest and wonder about the agendas of some people.
The UK Apache training programme run by the AAC for the Army on behalf of the entire Armed Forces will continue and succeed despite the sniping by ill informed puppets, it will not deploy to the gulf to prove itself because the bigger picture wont allow that, also the US seem to be proving it very well so why take that risk?
The last point and not one to be missed is the absoloute bravery and dedication shown by these US Apache Pilots, hats off!!!
Ahh but they work! Pulled a postman last night! Poor sap came over to chat up our girls who drank his beer then 'cked off for a ciggie leaving the dude cornered by me giving it "Postman? Wow - I used to fly helicopters me".
[Sorry to divert - that's all chaps - crack on!]
[Sorry to divert - that's all chaps - crack on!]
Thank you ORAC for reminding BlueWolf of reality....me thinks he had to be pprune fishing....no one could have such a post for real. The Gulf War seemed to answer those questions for once and for all.....the latest concerns about ingestion of rocket exhaust can be mitigated by tactics.....but then the Brits always have had trouble accepting American aircraft.....remember the absolute bashing the Chinook received....and now they are the backbone of the heavy airlift for the UK Forces. I guess they will have to train some line pilots to go do combat with the Iraqi's....why QHI's just cannot be used to engage the enemy....they are probably too busy slanging one another's techniques to actually get involved with the real purpose of the mission ....(to engage and destroy the enemy).
Heck....I bet they could find more than enough American pilots to fill the cockpits on a contract basis much as they did during the last big war when Americans flew Spitfires while wearing odd colored blue uniforms. Pity, there is no european gunship that can do the job and the Apache is all that is available.
I guess we could lend-lease some old worn out Cobra's....but by British military standards....it would about 2010 before they could be accepted, tested, manned up and deployed. By then it will all be over but the shouting. Course, that begs the question...where they gonna get the bodies to fill the cockpits....the written exams will take a year to do before the flying training could be done.
Heck....I bet they could find more than enough American pilots to fill the cockpits on a contract basis much as they did during the last big war when Americans flew Spitfires while wearing odd colored blue uniforms. Pity, there is no european gunship that can do the job and the Apache is all that is available.
I guess we could lend-lease some old worn out Cobra's....but by British military standards....it would about 2010 before they could be accepted, tested, manned up and deployed. By then it will all be over but the shouting. Course, that begs the question...where they gonna get the bodies to fill the cockpits....the written exams will take a year to do before the flying training could be done.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Europe
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What a load of twaddle.......You cannot send an aircraft that isn't in front line service yet to the Gulf. It really is as simple as that.
As for buying up a shed load of Cobra's from the US...do you really think they have a bunch of those things sitting on a dockside awaiting shipment to whoever might bid for them.
Finally why rag the QHI's who are busy as ten men learning to fly the machine efficiently in order to train the first line pilots, of which I might add, there is no shortage!
As for buying up a shed load of Cobra's from the US...do you really think they have a bunch of those things sitting on a dockside awaiting shipment to whoever might bid for them.
Finally why rag the QHI's who are busy as ten men learning to fly the machine efficiently in order to train the first line pilots, of which I might add, there is no shortage!
Lupus Domesticus
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: NZ
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Believe it or not SASless I do appreciate ORAC's reality checks, and sometimes even your own 
I'm tucking into my pie even as I type.
However, I still think AH-1Z represents better value for money, and I still believe that a Serb with an anti-aircraft gun is capable of posing a danger to helicopters.
I'm tucking into my pie even as I type.
However, I still think AH-1Z represents better value for money, and I still believe that a Serb with an anti-aircraft gun is capable of posing a danger to helicopters.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: S.Yorkshire
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A/Tpr Cooper: Thank you for your comments.
Yes I did start the thread about cancelling the WAH-64, didn't it go well.
Just because I mention QHI's, doesn't mean I dislike them. They just so happen to be the only ones who are able to operate the machine at present.
Bad 6 monthly, after all these years, ha,ha! The only course I was turned down for, was the boat handling course in Portsmouth last summer.
No, I'm not a retread, though, what was all that about?
As I've mentioned previously, hats off to those selected. I cant even suss out Ace Combat4 on PS2.
You said, " It would be my advice that instead of sounding off and talking ****e, keep your opinions to yourself"
I reply, "Isn't that why we all come to pprune? And I have to keep my opinion to myself because it doesn't agree with yours. Perhaps I think you are talking ****e, Comrade!"
Finally, you said," The corps needs unity right now, not gob****es."
I ask,"Why do we need unity if it's all hunky dory?"
(did you think of your nick-name yourself? I remember you from...ooooo...way back, along with Hooper)
"Lighten up Francis"
Yes I did start the thread about cancelling the WAH-64, didn't it go well.
Just because I mention QHI's, doesn't mean I dislike them. They just so happen to be the only ones who are able to operate the machine at present.
Bad 6 monthly, after all these years, ha,ha! The only course I was turned down for, was the boat handling course in Portsmouth last summer.
No, I'm not a retread, though, what was all that about?
As I've mentioned previously, hats off to those selected. I cant even suss out Ace Combat4 on PS2.
You said, " It would be my advice that instead of sounding off and talking ****e, keep your opinions to yourself"
I reply, "Isn't that why we all come to pprune? And I have to keep my opinion to myself because it doesn't agree with yours. Perhaps I think you are talking ****e, Comrade!"
Finally, you said," The corps needs unity right now, not gob****es."
I ask,"Why do we need unity if it's all hunky dory?"
(did you think of your nick-name yourself? I remember you from...ooooo...way back, along with Hooper)
"Lighten up Francis"
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Mutley, it's supposed to be discussion inducing. But Devils Advocate (eggy drink?) sounds better I suppose. Some may see it as being a right **** though.
(they just put up with it!)
(they just put up with it!)
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Ballykelly
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Used Ink I've copied my thread and see no mention of you being a retread!
You're fascination with the AH is a little odd. Are things in your own unit so good that the only thing to worry about is another unit miles away, or does unit loyalty stop you from hanging your dirty linen in public.
I tell you what, worry about the lads flying out to the Gulf, who have little to be happy about, and then worry a bit more for those who are going to have to replace them in about 6 mths if it goes pear shape. I know what I'm bothered about!!!!!
Used Ink, I am curious, in a previous thread (which has now disappeared) wasn't it you who was suggesting that the Apache program should be cancelled?
You appear to have a keen disliking for QHI's, you are having a pop, is it that you've had a bad 6 monthly recently, or maybe you've been turned down for a course. I remember a few years ago an old and bold Lynx pilot who had a dislike for QHI's, he got out of the Army slating every last one of 'em, the thing is he got back in to become a QHI!!
You are also digging at the AH, again have you been knocked back there as well.
It would be my advice that instead of sounding off and talking ****e, keep your opinions to yourself and direct your energy into areas which you have some impact, though I can only wonder what that might be. The corps needs unity right now, not gob****es.[I]Used Ink, I am curious, in a previous thread (which has now disappeared) wasn't it you who was suggesting that the Apache program should be cancelled?
You're fascination with the AH is a little odd. Are things in your own unit so good that the only thing to worry about is another unit miles away, or does unit loyalty stop you from hanging your dirty linen in public.
I tell you what, worry about the lads flying out to the Gulf, who have little to be happy about, and then worry a bit more for those who are going to have to replace them in about 6 mths if it goes pear shape. I know what I'm bothered about!!!!!
Used Ink, I am curious, in a previous thread (which has now disappeared) wasn't it you who was suggesting that the Apache program should be cancelled?
You appear to have a keen disliking for QHI's, you are having a pop, is it that you've had a bad 6 monthly recently, or maybe you've been turned down for a course. I remember a few years ago an old and bold Lynx pilot who had a dislike for QHI's, he got out of the Army slating every last one of 'em, the thing is he got back in to become a QHI!!
You are also digging at the AH, again have you been knocked back there as well.
It would be my advice that instead of sounding off and talking ****e, keep your opinions to yourself and direct your energy into areas which you have some impact, though I can only wonder what that might be. The corps needs unity right now, not gob****es.[I]Used Ink, I am curious, in a previous thread (which has now disappeared) wasn't it you who was suggesting that the Apache program should be cancelled?
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: uk
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Dear All
You all seem to be squabbling amongst yourselves at the moment, i can't see what it is that you have to complain about.
You have managed to secure in the apache the finest attack helicopter the world has ever seen. You have denied the ownership of it to the RAF (well done) and have massively impressed me with your new approach to introducing it.
A/Tpr is right you should all be sticking together on this one as if you don't there are plenty of people out there who would gladly take over the capability!!
Went to a presentation by your big boss the other day in London village and was very impressed with the totally forward thinking manner in which the AAC are looking to totally transform their all arms doctrine to incorporate this awesome fighting machine. For once i think they may not be looking at this aircraft as a Land Rover with rotor blades!!
Used Ink - Can't imagine what planet you are on to suggest sending it to the Gulf now, shows a total lack of experience of how these things work. Do you want these things to go out there and tot up their accident record?? These aircraft and crews need more time in the cockpit and the ground crews need more experience working with them in temperate climes let alone desert conditions.
I accept that this is a place for opinions and frankly yours is wrong!!
You all seem to be squabbling amongst yourselves at the moment, i can't see what it is that you have to complain about.
You have managed to secure in the apache the finest attack helicopter the world has ever seen. You have denied the ownership of it to the RAF (well done) and have massively impressed me with your new approach to introducing it.
A/Tpr is right you should all be sticking together on this one as if you don't there are plenty of people out there who would gladly take over the capability!!
Went to a presentation by your big boss the other day in London village and was very impressed with the totally forward thinking manner in which the AAC are looking to totally transform their all arms doctrine to incorporate this awesome fighting machine. For once i think they may not be looking at this aircraft as a Land Rover with rotor blades!!
Used Ink - Can't imagine what planet you are on to suggest sending it to the Gulf now, shows a total lack of experience of how these things work. Do you want these things to go out there and tot up their accident record?? These aircraft and crews need more time in the cockpit and the ground crews need more experience working with them in temperate climes let alone desert conditions.
I accept that this is a place for opinions and frankly yours is wrong!!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
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SASless, I disagree that the Brits always had trouble accepting American aircraft - witness the C-47, PBY, B-24, B-50, P-51, F-86, C-130, F-4 and many others. I would say that we accepted and operated them well enough. And I can think of 3 American jets that I would like to see in the RAF in place of the Typhoon.
But back to the Apache, which looks like an efficient piece of kit that will do a good job in the hands of the AAC. However, it shouldn't deploy to Iraq because war is not justified - yet. But that's all covered elsewhere.
But back to the Apache, which looks like an efficient piece of kit that will do a good job in the hands of the AAC. However, it shouldn't deploy to Iraq because war is not justified - yet. But that's all covered elsewhere.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wiltshire
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gazed skywards today to find the beast on the go around at the wiltshire airbase
not at it's most impressive doing "IF" but nice to see it anyway.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
not at it's most impressive doing "IF" but nice to see it anyway.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Isn't it about time we realised the cab is here,it's a quality aircraft and when its ready and operational will do its job as it has been designed to do.Those people who doubt its viability within the AAC must have personal reasons for not liking the aircraft(not being selected for training perhaps!).As for deploying it to the gulf well i can only liken it to asking my 3 month old son to fix an AFCS fault on a lynx.(a)It would be pointless and (b)It would be pointless.[COLOR=blue]
Iconoclast
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The home of Dudley Dooright-Where the lead dog is the only one that gets a change of scenery.
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Timberrrrr. Ouch
I originally posted this on Rotorheads in a thread on the Apache.
It caught a lot of flack. let's see what happens here.
I was involved in the initial design of the Apache.
The US Army lied to the pilots of the Apache relative to its’ invulnerability to the ZSU 23-4 weapons system. This was the primary weapon that would be used against the Apache if it were to attack a group of Warsaw Pact tanks.
This weapon was also being supplied to all of the governments that were in league with the Warsaw Pact. The U S Army commissioned a study by a so-called ”Think Tank” to study the effectiveness of the ZSU 23-4 against the Apache. It was their considered opinion that the ZSU 23-4 was inaccurate, It had a low degree of reliability and that if the ZSU 23 did hit the Apache with one round, the pilot would have sufficient time to evade any further hits by dropping below the tree line. The uninitiated reader should understand that the ZSU 23-4 has a rate of fire of 1200 rounds per minute and that if one bullet hit its’ mark, there would be forty or fifty rounds right behind the first round. When I was on contract with Agusta helicopters I took a two-week holiday in Yugoslavia. While there, I watched a T V program, which was describing the weaponry of the Warsaw Pact. One of the weapons demonstrated was the ZSU 23-4. In the demonstration the weapon was pointed on a line parallel to a stand of trees. A helicopter popped up from behind the trees and in an instant the weapon acquired the helicopter and was pointed directly at it. The helicopter then dropped below the treetops and at that time the gun was turned off. The helicopter was allowed to fly away and the gun was turned on. It immediately started to fire and it swept an arc approximately 30 to 45 degrees on either side of center. The trees started to explode. It looked like there were hundreds of chain saw wielding loggers in the tree stand felling trees as fast as they could. It appeared to the writer that if a hail of 23mm bullets didn’t hit the helicopter, a falling tree would destroy it.
It caught a lot of flack. let's see what happens here.
I was involved in the initial design of the Apache.
The US Army lied to the pilots of the Apache relative to its’ invulnerability to the ZSU 23-4 weapons system. This was the primary weapon that would be used against the Apache if it were to attack a group of Warsaw Pact tanks.
This weapon was also being supplied to all of the governments that were in league with the Warsaw Pact. The U S Army commissioned a study by a so-called ”Think Tank” to study the effectiveness of the ZSU 23-4 against the Apache. It was their considered opinion that the ZSU 23-4 was inaccurate, It had a low degree of reliability and that if the ZSU 23 did hit the Apache with one round, the pilot would have sufficient time to evade any further hits by dropping below the tree line. The uninitiated reader should understand that the ZSU 23-4 has a rate of fire of 1200 rounds per minute and that if one bullet hit its’ mark, there would be forty or fifty rounds right behind the first round. When I was on contract with Agusta helicopters I took a two-week holiday in Yugoslavia. While there, I watched a T V program, which was describing the weaponry of the Warsaw Pact. One of the weapons demonstrated was the ZSU 23-4. In the demonstration the weapon was pointed on a line parallel to a stand of trees. A helicopter popped up from behind the trees and in an instant the weapon acquired the helicopter and was pointed directly at it. The helicopter then dropped below the treetops and at that time the gun was turned off. The helicopter was allowed to fly away and the gun was turned on. It immediately started to fire and it swept an arc approximately 30 to 45 degrees on either side of center. The trees started to explode. It looked like there were hundreds of chain saw wielding loggers in the tree stand felling trees as fast as they could. It appeared to the writer that if a hail of 23mm bullets didn’t hit the helicopter, a falling tree would destroy it.
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Interesting......
lets not forget however that in order to acquire the target the ZSU 23/4 would need to turn on its radar system...into action go AH (RFI/DAS/FCR)systems and before you know it missiles are on route - splash one 23/4.
lets not forget however that in order to acquire the target the ZSU 23/4 would need to turn on its radar system...into action go AH (RFI/DAS/FCR)systems and before you know it missiles are on route - splash one 23/4.