Scotia, time to vote
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Scotia, time to vote
So the day is nearing, in fact 3/10/01 i believe .D-day for those pilots from scotia, to make up their minds if a 40% payrise is enough, money for old rope if you ask me,i havent quite worked out how the can compare them selves to the fixed wing side of the industry s76 against 767 ?? i wonder how much profit the s76 brings in against the boeing,Iwonder how many passangers were transported with the s76, not nearly as many , manybe i'm just a little bitter by their apparent greed,
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sticks and stones, your remarks were so hurtful NOT.
You know what happened to the little boy that tryed to grab all the cookies from the cookie jar,he had to release some in the end,
greed can be a pain some times, don't you think
You know what happened to the little boy that tryed to grab all the cookies from the cookie jar,he had to release some in the end,
greed can be a pain some times, don't you think
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BBB, you have missed the point. Economics 101!! Supply & Demand. There is a retention problem with all the younger (and not so young)rotorheads leaving to richer pickings. If the Oil companies want to have any pilots left to fly the helicopters then they have to cough up, SIMPLE!!! As for numbers of pax so what.I am sure you have never had to do a Rig Radar approach to minimums, at night, in a howling gale. And yes I have done both types of flying as I was one of the Rats to abandon ship. Anyway the money is not coming out of your pocket so what gives? GOOD Luck to them I say. 
Probably the wrong thread but here goes anyway. Aircav The problem is not with retention as relatively speaking there have not been that many more pilots go fixed wing recently as there have in previous times (and some of them the industry was glad to get rid of anyway). The problem is now the demographic profile of the existing workforce and aquisition of quality replacements. Few experienced ex mil guys are coming into rotary civi life. Very few good onshore heli jockeys want to go offshore. North Sea numbers have been kept up by taking on self improvers who by definition have got their qualification by having a big wad of dosh. Several have done it because they weren't that bright at school and it was a cool way to get into a "glam" job. Others did it "cos it looked fun". As long as they had the money and a persevering flying school they would eventually reach the minimum standard to pass the CPL(h) exams. As the North Sea in particular has been so short of pilots for the last 2 1/2 years they would take anyone with a license who could crawl through the door. When recently did any new helicopter pilot have to go through a serious selection process to get a job in the North Sea. Pilots have been employed over the phone. The Training deptartments then struggle to get these guys through the hoops to get the P2 cannon fodder on line.
Sooner or later these guys move up the seniority list and before you know it they are next in line for command. Some make it OK but many make it only because they have flown these routes so many times. Put them in a tricky situation and will they get away with it? Who knows. More likely by luck than skill and judgement.
I know that the overall quality of the North Sea pilot workforce has dropped significantly. I see it when occasionally they come onshore to do a job and they need to have their noses and backsides wiped for them all the time. They tend to have very little decision making ability when there isn't a rule written down for them already. As for employing an ex North sea jockey - if you want to get the job done without a fuss don't bother.
Yes they do need paid more. Not because the people already doing it deserve more - most of them don't( although the few quality ones remaining do deserve it) but because the employers need to get a higher quality of choice from which to recruit for the future. You never know, one day before the oil runs out there may be a queue of high calibre pilots waiting to sit the selection tests for premium paid helicopter jobs and only the best will be picked. Do you see that pig flying past the window?
Sooner or later these guys move up the seniority list and before you know it they are next in line for command. Some make it OK but many make it only because they have flown these routes so many times. Put them in a tricky situation and will they get away with it? Who knows. More likely by luck than skill and judgement.
I know that the overall quality of the North Sea pilot workforce has dropped significantly. I see it when occasionally they come onshore to do a job and they need to have their noses and backsides wiped for them all the time. They tend to have very little decision making ability when there isn't a rule written down for them already. As for employing an ex North sea jockey - if you want to get the job done without a fuss don't bother.
Yes they do need paid more. Not because the people already doing it deserve more - most of them don't( although the few quality ones remaining do deserve it) but because the employers need to get a higher quality of choice from which to recruit for the future. You never know, one day before the oil runs out there may be a queue of high calibre pilots waiting to sit the selection tests for premium paid helicopter jobs and only the best will be picked. Do you see that pig flying past the window?
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Firstly you must begin to understand the commercial economics of the aviation world in which you work .... 767's have to sell many seats to individuals or groups to make a profit .... offshore helicopters are chartered at rates by the hour regardless of the number of seats occupied. Sillybilly.
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Ah... I think a lot of the comments above, while quite valid, somewhat miss the point.
The only thing Scotia are probably going to get for their 40% is that their workforce won't go on strike. Fair enough: if the pilots have that kind of industrial muscle, good luck to them. There don't need to be any other justifications.
The only thing Scotia are probably going to get for their 40% is that their workforce won't go on strike. Fair enough: if the pilots have that kind of industrial muscle, good luck to them. There don't need to be any other justifications.
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The point i'm trying to make is this and i by know means am detracting from the responsiblity and at times hazardous job that the pilots are employed to do, but thats it employed to do, everbody is indispensable and without contracts there are no jobs, the north sea industry is fickle at the best of times, you all should know this better than i, switching from one company to another chasing the contrats with better pay or to head off possible cut backs in crew numbers.
I believe everyone is worth more than their paypacket states, buts let not trample on the general work force just to line your own pockets with gold, because they to have mouths to feed, and would also like a rise and some point, if he keeps hes job that is.
Also pilot shortge, correct me if i,m wrong and i,m sure you will, its not just a company issue but a industry wide one, ive looked into self sponsorship and to be quite honest there pricing themselves out, company sponsorship well pigs might fly first, so it really only leaves the mil to fill the gaps and they an't leaving due to better terms and conditions, so in the grand scheme of thing are large pay awards the real answer to the long term problem of shortages,maybe a lesser award and a well constructed long term training and recruitment program should have been implemented, just a thought rightly or wrongly but a thought anyway.
I believe everyone is worth more than their paypacket states, buts let not trample on the general work force just to line your own pockets with gold, because they to have mouths to feed, and would also like a rise and some point, if he keeps hes job that is.
Also pilot shortge, correct me if i,m wrong and i,m sure you will, its not just a company issue but a industry wide one, ive looked into self sponsorship and to be quite honest there pricing themselves out, company sponsorship well pigs might fly first, so it really only leaves the mil to fill the gaps and they an't leaving due to better terms and conditions, so in the grand scheme of thing are large pay awards the real answer to the long term problem of shortages,maybe a lesser award and a well constructed long term training and recruitment program should have been implemented, just a thought rightly or wrongly but a thought anyway.
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To Roundwego,
Roundwego said :
"The problem is now the demographic profile of the existing workforce and aquisition of quality replacements. Few experienced ex mil guys are coming into rotary civi life. Very few good onshore heli jockeys want to go offshore. North Sea numbers have been kept up by taking on self improvers who by definition have got their qualification by having a big wad of dosh. Several have done it because they weren't that bright at school and it was a cool way to get into a "glam" job. Others did it "cos it looked fun". As long as they had the money and a persevering flying school they would eventually reach the minimum standard to pass the CPL(h) exams".
You wouldn't be ex mil would you?
Maybe there is another side of the coin when it comes to describing "self improvers", you could have said something like "the average self improver has the following qualities".
1. In most cases has worked hard for a long time to get the dosh.
2. Has a good understanding as to the value of the equipment they are working with and doesn't have the attitude "Never mind its not mine and the government can pay for it".
3. May be they were overqualified when they applied to HM forces for a flying position.
4. Doesn't speak with a plumb in there mouth and has a lot of common sense.
etc, etc,
This is not intended to be a "who's better, mil or civ" discussion, that's been done before and the outcome is usually even, with maybe some roles being more suited to each respectively.
From my experience in the RN I got to fly with some of the most articulate, brilliant people I have ever meet but unfortunately I also got to do the same with a few moronic, ignorant snobs.
So Roundwego, by "definition" is it really a good idea to stereo type a group of people?
Jiff
Roundwego said :
"The problem is now the demographic profile of the existing workforce and aquisition of quality replacements. Few experienced ex mil guys are coming into rotary civi life. Very few good onshore heli jockeys want to go offshore. North Sea numbers have been kept up by taking on self improvers who by definition have got their qualification by having a big wad of dosh. Several have done it because they weren't that bright at school and it was a cool way to get into a "glam" job. Others did it "cos it looked fun". As long as they had the money and a persevering flying school they would eventually reach the minimum standard to pass the CPL(h) exams".
You wouldn't be ex mil would you?
Maybe there is another side of the coin when it comes to describing "self improvers", you could have said something like "the average self improver has the following qualities".
1. In most cases has worked hard for a long time to get the dosh.
2. Has a good understanding as to the value of the equipment they are working with and doesn't have the attitude "Never mind its not mine and the government can pay for it".
3. May be they were overqualified when they applied to HM forces for a flying position.
4. Doesn't speak with a plumb in there mouth and has a lot of common sense.
etc, etc,
This is not intended to be a "who's better, mil or civ" discussion, that's been done before and the outcome is usually even, with maybe some roles being more suited to each respectively.
From my experience in the RN I got to fly with some of the most articulate, brilliant people I have ever meet but unfortunately I also got to do the same with a few moronic, ignorant snobs.
So Roundwego, by "definition" is it really a good idea to stereo type a group of people?
Jiff
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Well said Jiff, I'm a self improver who flew the North Sea,passed a command course (isn't that selection?) and I'm now flying onshore. Roundwego obviously considers himself as an elite, I bet he's a bundle of fun on a CRM refresher!
I left because I was feed up with disruptive rosters/lifestyle and not being properly compensated for it. Add to that hours spent in a rubber suit, in a less than ideal working environment (hot, little ventilation etc) and it was time to move on to something more comfortable and a stable life style. But to all my friends at Scotia, this is the best opportunity in years to redress the problems of the past. Its time to put up or shut up if you want things to improve.
I left because I was feed up with disruptive rosters/lifestyle and not being properly compensated for it. Add to that hours spent in a rubber suit, in a less than ideal working environment (hot, little ventilation etc) and it was time to move on to something more comfortable and a stable life style. But to all my friends at Scotia, this is the best opportunity in years to redress the problems of the past. Its time to put up or shut up if you want things to improve.
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The bottom line might be supply vs demand. There was a time when you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a helicopter pilot, thank you "Vietnam era glut". Having flown for the US military for the last 18 years and starting to look into civilian employment, as military retirement approaches, I see a lot of demand for rotorheads. A friend, who recently retired from the military had compainies calling him. He got picked up as an EMS pilot starting at $64K,USD with great benefits. The US FAA released some interesting stats two years ago and show a "significant" decrease in the number of commercial/ATP helicopter pilots. With helo ops on the increase and pilots on the decrease it's a good time to be a rotorhead, at least in the US. 
