Bell 206: JetRanger and LongRanger
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: N20,W99
Bert
You are right about the oxygen requirements I'm sure it is legally required, but still doesn't mean it is used, you know how it it is in most countries.
If you want to see a little bit more of Mexico (city) here's a link to my Mexico City from a Helicopter pictures webpage, all the pictures were taken by me while flying around the city.
Mexico City from a Helicopter
If you want to see a little bit more of Mexico (city) here's a link to my Mexico City from a Helicopter pictures webpage, all the pictures were taken by me while flying around the city.
Mexico City from a Helicopter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 364
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From: Just over there....no there.
A jetranger at 20k? in free air? up a mountain I can JUST understand but....
I get nosebleeds at 2000ft never mind 20,000ft.
Are there any other heli pilots out there scared of heights?
I get nosebleeds at 2000ft never mind 20,000ft.
Are there any other heli pilots out there scared of heights?
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 9
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back to blender
no expert but at 15500 ISA+15 - does that mean you are at about 17300 density altitude.
And if so your TAS is nearly 70kts which might be a reason for poor climb.
Any ideas??
Top photos and nice day for it
no expert but at 15500 ISA+15 - does that mean you are at about 17300 density altitude.
And if so your TAS is nearly 70kts which might be a reason for poor climb.
Any ideas??
Top photos and nice day for it
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,119
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From: N20,W99
TalkTurn, Good observation.
You are completely right! DA was at about 17,300 and TAS was something like 70 KTAS when at 50 KIAS, but I tried different airspeeds below that and it seemed that anything less than that would only start me down.
Actually now that I remember I was laughing about it with the photographer, I found the spot where ANY change in my Power, Attitude, Airspeed or the slightest down draft would make the helicopter start down vigorously, it was at its absolut limit, felt like hanging by a very thin thread, funny feeling to not be able to climb an inch more.
Wonder what the autorotation caracteristics would be at that altitude, I guess it would have pretty much the same qualities of a flying red brick.
You are completely right! DA was at about 17,300 and TAS was something like 70 KTAS when at 50 KIAS, but I tried different airspeeds below that and it seemed that anything less than that would only start me down.
Actually now that I remember I was laughing about it with the photographer, I found the spot where ANY change in my Power, Attitude, Airspeed or the slightest down draft would make the helicopter start down vigorously, it was at its absolut limit, felt like hanging by a very thin thread, funny feeling to not be able to climb an inch more.
Wonder what the autorotation caracteristics would be at that altitude, I guess it would have pretty much the same qualities of a flying red brick.
Last edited by BlenderPilot; 21st March 2003 at 16:11.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,835
Likes: 3
From: Philadelphia PA
Blender pilot -
Just out of curiousity, what condition were the rotor blades? Old, new, pitted, etc? The engine might well be above spec, but if the blades aren't working well you won't get the performance out of the machine.
Also, was the torquemeter recently calibrated? Again, it might be denying you power.
But a friend of mine also added that somewhere around 20K, the rotor just stops working very well - he saw it in some Army testing in the OH-58 in the 70's.
Just out of curiousity, what condition were the rotor blades? Old, new, pitted, etc? The engine might well be above spec, but if the blades aren't working well you won't get the performance out of the machine.
Also, was the torquemeter recently calibrated? Again, it might be denying you power.
But a friend of mine also added that somewhere around 20K, the rotor just stops working very well - he saw it in some Army testing in the OH-58 in the 70's.
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 10,959
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From: EGDC
Hippy, did you note the callsign of the jetranger? If it was a Tester callsign it may well have been a Boscombe Down student Test Pilot crew carrying out high altitude handling exercises. They used to use the Gazelle I believe but if it is u/s they might well rent a 206 for the TP course to use.
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: N20,W99
Shawn,
Never even crossed my mind to think about the blades, but it´s a pretty interesting point.
I just walked out to the helicopter and looked at the blades closely, they look good, not much erosion or even paint missing actually they look new but they have that 3M tape over the erosion strips and that might affect performance, also they might have been very dirty when I went down there, this helicopter gets about 40+ hrs. per week and doesn´t get washed as often as it should.
Good observation, thank you.
Never even crossed my mind to think about the blades, but it´s a pretty interesting point.
I just walked out to the helicopter and looked at the blades closely, they look good, not much erosion or even paint missing actually they look new but they have that 3M tape over the erosion strips and that might affect performance, also they might have been very dirty when I went down there, this helicopter gets about 40+ hrs. per week and doesn´t get washed as often as it should.
Good observation, thank you.
Last edited by BlenderPilot; 22nd March 2003 at 02:16.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 171
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From: London UK
Thanks again for all your replies / photo's etc. Glad I seem to have started a good discussion also.
crab@...
No, not ETP. It was British civil registered out of Denham. Not proper to put full c/s here and I can't remember it now anyway.
Hippy.
crab@...
No, not ETP. It was British civil registered out of Denham. Not proper to put full c/s here and I can't remember it now anyway.
Hippy.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 94
Likes: 1
From: Ottawa, Canada
Mr. DM of Trans North in the Yukon is one of the highest time mountain pilots in Canada. He received an award this year from HAI.
There, he told me a story of how he was attempting to put sling loads at 19,200 ft with a 350B2, but could not. He came back with a 206BIII and completed the job.
Shawn, you know our friend Mr. AR from BHTC - his Himalayan rescue of a Pakistani Lama crew from approx 21K in an L4 is one of the highest ever. He left the crash site with 5 souls and 300 lbs of fuel if I remember correctly.
BV
There, he told me a story of how he was attempting to put sling loads at 19,200 ft with a 350B2, but could not. He came back with a 206BIII and completed the job.
Shawn, you know our friend Mr. AR from BHTC - his Himalayan rescue of a Pakistani Lama crew from approx 21K in an L4 is one of the highest ever. He left the crash site with 5 souls and 300 lbs of fuel if I remember correctly.
BV
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,835
Likes: 3
From: Philadelphia PA
to CTD:
Yes I remember AR from BHTC. Quite the feat to do that. I remember him saying that he got out of the helicopter to get the photos of the event, and nearly blacked out from lack of oxygen. There's a reason for those regulations!
I believe there was a higher rescue somewhere on Everest a couple of years later.
Yes I remember AR from BHTC. Quite the feat to do that. I remember him saying that he got out of the helicopter to get the photos of the event, and nearly blacked out from lack of oxygen. There's a reason for those regulations!
I believe there was a higher rescue somewhere on Everest a couple of years later.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 94
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From: Ottawa, Canada
Shawn - yes, the picture clearly shows the Lama on its side, and Alain's jacket on the ground next to the ship. The pilot door is ajar as well...
Big chance to take, getting out in the snow on top of the world, but the photo was worth it!
BV
407 - R engine or not, he's the man...
Big chance to take, getting out in the snow on top of the world, but the photo was worth it!
BV
407 - R engine or not, he's the man...
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 93
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From: South East England
Hippy did say in his opening gambit that the machine "got to FL200, did his stuff and came back down"
Hippy was working the radar so he must have seen it do the job!
Hence - It will certainly get to FL200
Hippy was working the radar so he must have seen it do the job!
Hence - It will certainly get to FL200
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 93
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From: South East England
Engine Fire B206
I was unfortunate to have an in-flight engine fire on a B206 last Saturday.
There were no indications from the T's & P's, and on landing the fire worsened, presumably because power was being reduced. It got even worse when I shut down to flight idle.
It now transpired that a Turbine seal had given up, allowing oil from the header tank into the combustion chamber and therefore igniting.
I was informed that if the flight had continued for another 10 – 15 minutes, the Donkey would have stopped due to lack of oil.
For future reference, apart from low oil pressure, high oil temp, what other symptoms would/could there have been to have warned me?
I did'nt have any idea of the circumstances until ATC came on the blower !
Happy
There were no indications from the T's & P's, and on landing the fire worsened, presumably because power was being reduced. It got even worse when I shut down to flight idle.
It now transpired that a Turbine seal had given up, allowing oil from the header tank into the combustion chamber and therefore igniting.
I was informed that if the flight had continued for another 10 – 15 minutes, the Donkey would have stopped due to lack of oil.
For future reference, apart from low oil pressure, high oil temp, what other symptoms would/could there have been to have warned me?
I did'nt have any idea of the circumstances until ATC came on the blower !
Happy
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 89
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From: Shropshire
Without a fire warning system I'd imagine you're limited to external observation by others prior to the donk dying.
As I started my PPL a few years back we had a double belt failure on a 22 resulting in the oil cooler pipes getting sliced. The only indication of the resulting fire was the reflection of the flames on the apron concrete. According to the tower, there wasn't much in the way of smoke.
The AFS chappies (wonderful guys) tell me it's rare to get much smoke due to the big fan on the roof rack...fair point. So short of a heat sensing system monitoring the interior compartments, the most likely indicator I should imagine would be low oil pressure followed by overtemps and then the big quiet bit.
But I'm no expert... so as someone who only flies a 22 now and then (also no fire warning) I'd be interested in the knowledge of others, myself.
As I started my PPL a few years back we had a double belt failure on a 22 resulting in the oil cooler pipes getting sliced. The only indication of the resulting fire was the reflection of the flames on the apron concrete. According to the tower, there wasn't much in the way of smoke.
The AFS chappies (wonderful guys) tell me it's rare to get much smoke due to the big fan on the roof rack...fair point. So short of a heat sensing system monitoring the interior compartments, the most likely indicator I should imagine would be low oil pressure followed by overtemps and then the big quiet bit.
But I'm no expert... so as someone who only flies a 22 now and then (also no fire warning) I'd be interested in the knowledge of others, myself.
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: The Daylight Saving Free Zone
If you have some reason to suspect a fire, do a turn or two. You may then be able to see your own smoke.
I heard of an incident some years ago where a 206 had oil leaking on to the outside of the turbine casing. The pilot saw his smoke shadow on the ground. (Obviously was not flying too high at that time)
He did a couple of turns and confirmed the shadow was not an optical illusion.
I heard of an incident some years ago where a 206 had oil leaking on to the outside of the turbine casing. The pilot saw his smoke shadow on the ground. (Obviously was not flying too high at that time)
He did a couple of turns and confirmed the shadow was not an optical illusion.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 396
Likes: 1
From: US...for now.
sprocket wrote:
I was unfortunate to have an in-flight engine fire on a B206 last Saturday.
There were no indications from the T's & P's, and on landing the fire worsened, presumably because power was being reduced. It got even worse when I shut down to flight idle.
It now transpired that a Turbine seal had given up, allowing oil from the header tank into the combustion chamber and therefore igniting.
I was informed that if the flight had continued for another 10 – 15 minutes, the Donkey would have stopped due to lack of oil.
For future reference, apart from low oil pressure, high oil temp, what other symptoms would/could there have been to have warned me?
I was unfortunate to have an in-flight engine fire on a B206 last Saturday.
There were no indications from the T's & P's, and on landing the fire worsened, presumably because power was being reduced. It got even worse when I shut down to flight idle.
It now transpired that a Turbine seal had given up, allowing oil from the header tank into the combustion chamber and therefore igniting.
I was informed that if the flight had continued for another 10 – 15 minutes, the Donkey would have stopped due to lack of oil.
For future reference, apart from low oil pressure, high oil temp, what other symptoms would/could there have been to have warned me?
Although we all probably feel apprehensive about them, engine fires in turbines are not generally a cause for worry. Sure, fuel lines can break, and fires have happened, but they're rare. Even if a fuel line broke and sprayed fuel, there's really nothing in the 206 engine compartment to ignite it (it's Jet-A after all). Furthermore, most of the mechanical failures that could cause a fire would likely cause the donk to quit pretty quick anyway, so the big bang would probably be your first indication.
In the unlikely event of a real engine fire (ask the early 206L-1 pilots), you'd have to be on the ground very quickly indeed before the aircraft was so consumed that controllability was lost.
