Bell 206: JetRanger and LongRanger
Join Date: Feb 2002
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I have PM'ed an Excel program to MS that is put out by standard aero, It covers quite a few models of helicopter with A250's in them. I don't have the facility to post it to PPrune but can email to someone to host so everyone can download it, It makes powerchecks that much easier. No more reading graphs.
Heliport?? let me know who is avail to host the program....
Heliport?? let me know who is avail to host the program....
[email protected]
Join Date: Sep 2003
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With that N1, TOT and Torque you appear to have a massive compressor inefficiency.
1. Look to a heavily erroded compressor case half set (been in the dust?). Have you had a history of case half errosion? Remember after about the third set of cases, the rotors are so thin that you will generate an impressive compressor stall as the pressure waves roll between the efficient stators and the inefficient blades of the compressor rotors.
or
2 An air leak from the Bleed valve not closed. Remember at 94%N1 you will still be in Bleed Valve modulation range. Get up to about 5000' PH and try it again. Your N1 should be higher than 95% to be sure that it is closed.
or
3. Look for a split in the armpits of the combustion outer case, a split in the discharge tubes , a popped seal in either of the ends of the discharge tubes or the burner drain valve wide open. If these are the cause you should also experience a significant delay in the acceleration schedule after the first peak in TOT.
or
4. The anti-ice valve or bleed air heater valve is leaking badly.
Good luck
Ned
1. Look to a heavily erroded compressor case half set (been in the dust?). Have you had a history of case half errosion? Remember after about the third set of cases, the rotors are so thin that you will generate an impressive compressor stall as the pressure waves roll between the efficient stators and the inefficient blades of the compressor rotors.
or
2 An air leak from the Bleed valve not closed. Remember at 94%N1 you will still be in Bleed Valve modulation range. Get up to about 5000' PH and try it again. Your N1 should be higher than 95% to be sure that it is closed.
or
3. Look for a split in the armpits of the combustion outer case, a split in the discharge tubes , a popped seal in either of the ends of the discharge tubes or the burner drain valve wide open. If these are the cause you should also experience a significant delay in the acceleration schedule after the first peak in TOT.
or
4. The anti-ice valve or bleed air heater valve is leaking badly.
Good luck
Ned
Join Date: Nov 2000
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A belated response from the Model 250 support team in Indy:
By the Bell flight manual, power assurance chart, these readings should yield a torque of 85 - 90%. However, neither the Bell manual or our OMM instruct for the engine to be removed. Best answer is one of the two following:
1) Get in touch with Bell light helicopter product support, since it is the airframe manual that determines the airworthiness of the complete aircraft,
2) Although the numbers do not indicate a spec engine, there are many factors that could effect the performance, some as simple as washing the compressor or determining whether the bleed valve is completely closed, maybe even check and verify the calibration of the TOT system. The real question is whether or not the aircraft will perform its mission, which is the ultimate decision of the pilot.
You can contact the team via [email protected].
By the Bell flight manual, power assurance chart, these readings should yield a torque of 85 - 90%. However, neither the Bell manual or our OMM instruct for the engine to be removed. Best answer is one of the two following:
1) Get in touch with Bell light helicopter product support, since it is the airframe manual that determines the airworthiness of the complete aircraft,
2) Although the numbers do not indicate a spec engine, there are many factors that could effect the performance, some as simple as washing the compressor or determining whether the bleed valve is completely closed, maybe even check and verify the calibration of the TOT system. The real question is whether or not the aircraft will perform its mission, which is the ultimate decision of the pilot.
You can contact the team via [email protected].
Join Date: Dec 2001
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My understanding is that in order to get the LongRanger IFR certified, it needed the fins on the horizontal stab. (There actually were some that were certified for IFR).
But a very light Longranger with high skids with fairings and end plates would be very squirrely. Take off the fairings and it was OK. Sort of 'who's in charge of directional stability and who is in charge of dihedral effect?' discussion.
But a very light Longranger with high skids with fairings and end plates would be very squirrely. Take off the fairings and it was OK. Sort of 'who's in charge of directional stability and who is in charge of dihedral effect?' discussion.
Regarding the pitch side of the story; as far as I understand the situation, the moving trailing edge on the horizontal stab is like the Huey/ 204 / 205's 'sync elevator' - moves in response to a linkage in the cyclic control run to provide more control of fuselage pitch attitude through the airspeed range, a kind of precursor to the massive stab angle changes used in machines like the Blackhawk.
Like Paco said, provides 'greater authority'.
Like Paco said, provides 'greater authority'.
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bell 206/ec120?
i am looking at both a 206 and the ec120 to buy for a business man to travel around ireland. Please express pros and cons for comparisson and your final choice. $1 mil budget. thanks.
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For 1 mil Aus dollars you could get two pretty good second hand Jetrangers-not to sure about the price of a used ec-120- would imagine though a little bit more.
To compare them operationally-if you looked up the word reliable in the dictionary you would find a photo of a jetranger-they just keep going. Ofcousre you'll always find the knockers but over a ten year period we operated up to 4 206's and other than the routine maintenance I can remember a couple of t/r chip lights, 1 eng chip and a couple of gauge failures.And i'm talking about 600-800 hrs per year per machine. The other consideration is support and parts....do your homework there....again I don't know what eurocopter/Bell have in Ireland.
I was fortunate to operate a EC-120 on trial for around 3 months and in that time had great feedback from pilots and passengers. Someone with a lot more time on the ec would give you a better appreciation however I loved flying the machine and the pax loved it. Bigger windows and a lot more comfortable.If your planning to have a full ship expect a lot of negative comments about the back middle seat in the jetranger...it's a F#$%^. Every day people would complain about having to sit there. We called it the TFC,(Thanks for coming) seat. Atleast in the EC everyone gets a great seat and no arguements.
The luggage compartment on the ec is little more generous than the jetranger however as all 206 drivers know it's amazing what you can fit in a jetranger boot.
Thats my 3 cents worth-to answer your question if it's just you and/or your pilot criusing around Ireland with regards to price take the jetranger option-maybe a few ec operators could add some pointers to even the debate.......Have you considered a R44?
SMO
To compare them operationally-if you looked up the word reliable in the dictionary you would find a photo of a jetranger-they just keep going. Ofcousre you'll always find the knockers but over a ten year period we operated up to 4 206's and other than the routine maintenance I can remember a couple of t/r chip lights, 1 eng chip and a couple of gauge failures.And i'm talking about 600-800 hrs per year per machine. The other consideration is support and parts....do your homework there....again I don't know what eurocopter/Bell have in Ireland.
I was fortunate to operate a EC-120 on trial for around 3 months and in that time had great feedback from pilots and passengers. Someone with a lot more time on the ec would give you a better appreciation however I loved flying the machine and the pax loved it. Bigger windows and a lot more comfortable.If your planning to have a full ship expect a lot of negative comments about the back middle seat in the jetranger...it's a F#$%^. Every day people would complain about having to sit there. We called it the TFC,(Thanks for coming) seat. Atleast in the EC everyone gets a great seat and no arguements.
The luggage compartment on the ec is little more generous than the jetranger however as all 206 drivers know it's amazing what you can fit in a jetranger boot.
Thats my 3 cents worth-to answer your question if it's just you and/or your pilot criusing around Ireland with regards to price take the jetranger option-maybe a few ec operators could add some pointers to even the debate.......Have you considered a R44?
SMO
Join Date: Oct 2005
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206 vs 120
This could start quite a debate!!
Would probably go for 206 myself, however do agree that the 120 has better alround visibility for the pax however have heard some stories of problems with the 120 i.e. c of g - this may have been corrected now.
Otherwise both lovely machines.
Would probably go for 206 myself, however do agree that the 120 has better alround visibility for the pax however have heard some stories of problems with the 120 i.e. c of g - this may have been corrected now.
Otherwise both lovely machines.
Join Date: Sep 2005
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206 no doubt.
i fown both of them, both as a pass and as a pilot, 206 its a work horse. True ec is more confortable for the pass, but 206 its so reliable and its so a noble machine and a joy to fly. Its slower though but its a very safe 'the safest single engine aircraft in the world' and it keeps its record for a long time. Maintainance its not hard and well documented, your mechanic can do a lot more to it than on the EC to fix it on the field.
More technology on the EC, quiter for sure, but the penalty for it its power. Although jet rangers are not a loader heli, it can carry more weight and be more forgiving in altitude and hot wx.
Its just my POV.
I flown both of them to see what i would buy, and got a 206. Ohh, operation cost is also lower. (at least in mx)
More technology on the EC, quiter for sure, but the penalty for it its power. Although jet rangers are not a loader heli, it can carry more weight and be more forgiving in altitude and hot wx.
Its just my POV.
I flown both of them to see what i would buy, and got a 206. Ohh, operation cost is also lower. (at least in mx)
It's not just about operating costs etc, is it.
We are living in the 21st century now and things such as duty of care/risk assessments etc have to be considered.
I would seriously also look at crashworthiness issues.
The 206 has that woefully inferior tail rotor authority issue hanging over it too.
On a separate note: bear in mind the spares and servicing scene.
A helo sat on the deck waiting 4 days for a replacement part for instance, is just scrap metal
We are living in the 21st century now and things such as duty of care/risk assessments etc have to be considered.
I would seriously also look at crashworthiness issues.
The 206 has that woefully inferior tail rotor authority issue hanging over it too.
On a separate note: bear in mind the spares and servicing scene.
A helo sat on the deck waiting 4 days for a replacement part for instance, is just scrap metal
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A few other things to consider:
Autorotation - ever seen an EC120 auto from about 10-15' AGL? Talk about slamming you into the ground! You'll find the 206 offers much more margin than the EC120 due to the nature of the rotor system. Much more inertia in the 206.
Useful Load - Don't get hung up in EC telling you that the 120 has a greater AUW. Once you load it with the necessary equipment and fuel to fly it away, you'll have more UL in a JetRanger with the same equipment. This is especially easy to see when comparing Bell and EC's HOGE and HIGE charts from their technical specs. You'll find a tight race, but I suspect EC would tell you differently.
Having flown in both, I would not take an EC120 above 110-kts. It seemed like everything was about to shake loose in the cabin.
I'd take the JetRanger.
Autorotation - ever seen an EC120 auto from about 10-15' AGL? Talk about slamming you into the ground! You'll find the 206 offers much more margin than the EC120 due to the nature of the rotor system. Much more inertia in the 206.
Useful Load - Don't get hung up in EC telling you that the 120 has a greater AUW. Once you load it with the necessary equipment and fuel to fly it away, you'll have more UL in a JetRanger with the same equipment. This is especially easy to see when comparing Bell and EC's HOGE and HIGE charts from their technical specs. You'll find a tight race, but I suspect EC would tell you differently.
Having flown in both, I would not take an EC120 above 110-kts. It seemed like everything was about to shake loose in the cabin.
I'd take the JetRanger.
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Thomas Coupling wrote:
"The 206 has that woefully inferior tail rotor authority issue hanging over it too."
Thomas...in my limited experience in helicopters to date which includes 1000+ hours in jetrangers ive never had any problem with tail rotor authority..and ive done most hovering ops that require alot of pedal....treat it right and think about what your doing and you should never have any tail rotor authority / lte or whatever they call it tommorow problem
"The 206 has that woefully inferior tail rotor authority issue hanging over it too."
Thomas...in my limited experience in helicopters to date which includes 1000+ hours in jetrangers ive never had any problem with tail rotor authority..and ive done most hovering ops that require alot of pedal....treat it right and think about what your doing and you should never have any tail rotor authority / lte or whatever they call it tommorow problem
The 206 has that woefully inferior tail rotor authority issue hanging over it too
That is exactly what I was going to say, you just beat me to it!
This LTE "Problem" on B206 is a non issue.
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Belly Tank & Aesir:
I disagree. I know several pilots that have experienced it. It is real and it is out there but it can be managed.
When I fly a Jet Ranger I am always very cognizant of wind direction and the conditions that can lead to LTE.
I disagree. I know several pilots that have experienced it. It is real and it is out there but it can be managed.
When I fly a Jet Ranger I am always very cognizant of wind direction and the conditions that can lead to LTE.
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IHL,
I didnt say that it its not an issue, maybe my wording was a bit obscure, however as you say with proper management and decision making it is overcome.
and i think this applies to most if not all aspect of flying.
cheers!
I didnt say that it its not an issue, maybe my wording was a bit obscure, however as you say with proper management and decision making it is overcome.
and i think this applies to most if not all aspect of flying.
cheers!
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$1m
headsethair - US$1m ~ £570k
You'll easily get an EC120 for that money. Quick search of the 'net or look in Helimart found several. e.g. 2002 with 1,000 hrs for EUR870k (£558k)
You'll easily get an EC120 for that money. Quick search of the 'net or look in Helimart found several. e.g. 2002 with 1,000 hrs for EUR870k (£558k)
Belly Tank / Aesir:
Ignorance is bliss....I suggest you get to know your a/c a little more:
NickLappos said:
posted 3rd October 2005 11:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
rotorboy,
In an LTE study I did about 7 years ago, based on worldwide accidents of all helos, using four different data bases, this is what it showed:
95% of all LTE accidents involve Bell 206 models.
Virtually 100% of all LTE accidents involve Bell helicopters (one Robbie in UK was reported as LTE, but was probably over pitching).
My conclusion was that the inadequate size of the Bell 206 tail rotor was the principal cause of its LTE woes.
A second finding is that all tail rotor authority events were being called LTE because the marketing campaign conducted by Bell was effective on removing the heat from their design.
LTE really does not exist, it is a label used to blame the pilot when a marginal helicopter loses yaw control within its approved envelope. That does not mean that a 206 can be milked by an experienced pilot to not lose tail authority.
LTE cannot be experienced by any helo built to modern standards (larger tail rotor). It is impossible to get LTE in a Black Hawk, Apache, S76, H-500, EH-101, Lynx, etc because they have adequate tail rotors.
Ignorance is bliss....I suggest you get to know your a/c a little more:
NickLappos said:
posted 3rd October 2005 11:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
rotorboy,
In an LTE study I did about 7 years ago, based on worldwide accidents of all helos, using four different data bases, this is what it showed:
95% of all LTE accidents involve Bell 206 models.
Virtually 100% of all LTE accidents involve Bell helicopters (one Robbie in UK was reported as LTE, but was probably over pitching).
My conclusion was that the inadequate size of the Bell 206 tail rotor was the principal cause of its LTE woes.
A second finding is that all tail rotor authority events were being called LTE because the marketing campaign conducted by Bell was effective on removing the heat from their design.
LTE really does not exist, it is a label used to blame the pilot when a marginal helicopter loses yaw control within its approved envelope. That does not mean that a 206 can be milked by an experienced pilot to not lose tail authority.
LTE cannot be experienced by any helo built to modern standards (larger tail rotor). It is impossible to get LTE in a Black Hawk, Apache, S76, H-500, EH-101, Lynx, etc because they have adequate tail rotors.