Bell 206: JetRanger and LongRanger
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Mmmm ..... putting my engineers hat on for a moment ...
I would have to suggest that the static balance would be the least of your problems when mixing blades sets .... depending on how many hours the "old blade" has when fitted up with its brand new mate! ...
I have many times tried to do this (at the bosses whim) and we always had problems trying to get a good (smooth!!!) in flight track... the reason being ...with an old (high time) blade we seemed to always have a "soft blade" Vs "hard blade" mix which causes all sorts of flying track and vibration problems ..... most of which can only really be fixed by matched blade sets.
Yes I know its expensive .... but there you are?
I would have to suggest that the static balance would be the least of your problems when mixing blades sets .... depending on how many hours the "old blade" has when fitted up with its brand new mate! ...
I have many times tried to do this (at the bosses whim) and we always had problems trying to get a good (smooth!!!) in flight track... the reason being ...with an old (high time) blade we seemed to always have a "soft blade" Vs "hard blade" mix which causes all sorts of flying track and vibration problems ..... most of which can only really be fixed by matched blade sets.
Yes I know its expensive .... but there you are?
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Go To The Source!!!!!!!!!!
Just send Bell product support an email at the following address. (Assuming you are operating a ship with a valid s/n, not some destroyed and rebuilt "project" ship, they will be more than glad to answer your question.)
email to : [email protected]
email to : [email protected]
Join Date: Dec 2003
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One of the problems with a mixed set is that any call for inboard tab has to be doubled if only 1 dual tab blade fitted.
This can lead to excessive tab which tends to reduce ride quality overall.
This can lead to excessive tab which tends to reduce ride quality overall.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Ask the voices!
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In the dregs of my memory, I seem to remember that a different tracking chart was issued for the two tab blades.
If I am correct, and you have a mixed set, which polar chart would you use?
"They say that the early bird catches the worm, but it is the second mouse who gets the cheese!"
If I am correct, and you have a mixed set, which polar chart would you use?
"They say that the early bird catches the worm, but it is the second mouse who gets the cheese!"
I have an early 206 A/B with a mixed set - both blades have been modified with the stainless steel leading edge.
Every pilot who flies it comments that it is the smoothest J/R they have flown! Both have over 4,000 hours left so that may be a more important factor than the dash number itself.
They were tracked and balanced by a good engineer which may help too.
Every pilot who flies it comments that it is the smoothest J/R they have flown! Both have over 4,000 hours left so that may be a more important factor than the dash number itself.
They were tracked and balanced by a good engineer which may help too.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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206B3 performance
Hi everyone,
looking for a quick info:
Bell 206B3
a) What is the OGE performance for a 206B3 loaded with
3 pax - 175 lb average
1pilot - 175 lb
cargo - 100lb
fuel - 45 min, incl reserve
OAT at 11000 ft +10-15 deg C
b) Same machine:
What can I do, weight-wise at 11 200 ft OAT +10-15 deg C.
Fact: Resently we had a "hard landing" in our neck of the woods, at "around" 10000 ft. Reports of the actual site would indicate an actual elevation of 11000 or 11200 ft. I recently over flew the area with direct climb from sealevel to that place - flying alongside the destination I indicated 11200ft - +12C. (....with a R44-Clipper II - never below 50kts!!)
Landing site is such that an approach into Groundeffect is not possible, thus I need OGE performance for a landing - and even there groundeffect will be marginal - narrow pinacle/ridge.
I was asked to bring some insurance guys to the site with a EC120B. Now we all know that the EC120 looses quite a bit to the 206 at that altitude. I read the performance charts (EC120) to no more than 320 kg payload at that altitude incl. fuel, pilot, pax. at OGE.
Which means it would have been a 1 pilot +1 pax and fly twice with a fuel stop.
Some friendly discussions about 206 versus EC120 prompted me to post this question.
I don't remember anything from my short stint in a 206, but I "feel" that the 206 was doomed the moment the pilot tried to land at that altitude with the load as estimated....
So how about some W+B practise for on the edge flying?
Thanks in advance,
3top
looking for a quick info:
Bell 206B3
a) What is the OGE performance for a 206B3 loaded with
3 pax - 175 lb average
1pilot - 175 lb
cargo - 100lb
fuel - 45 min, incl reserve
OAT at 11000 ft +10-15 deg C
b) Same machine:
What can I do, weight-wise at 11 200 ft OAT +10-15 deg C.
Fact: Resently we had a "hard landing" in our neck of the woods, at "around" 10000 ft. Reports of the actual site would indicate an actual elevation of 11000 or 11200 ft. I recently over flew the area with direct climb from sealevel to that place - flying alongside the destination I indicated 11200ft - +12C. (....with a R44-Clipper II - never below 50kts!!)
Landing site is such that an approach into Groundeffect is not possible, thus I need OGE performance for a landing - and even there groundeffect will be marginal - narrow pinacle/ridge.
I was asked to bring some insurance guys to the site with a EC120B. Now we all know that the EC120 looses quite a bit to the 206 at that altitude. I read the performance charts (EC120) to no more than 320 kg payload at that altitude incl. fuel, pilot, pax. at OGE.
Which means it would have been a 1 pilot +1 pax and fly twice with a fuel stop.
Some friendly discussions about 206 versus EC120 prompted me to post this question.
I don't remember anything from my short stint in a 206, but I "feel" that the 206 was doomed the moment the pilot tried to land at that altitude with the load as estimated....
So how about some W+B practise for on the edge flying?
Thanks in advance,
3top
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Chilliwack, BC Canada
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I believe that you are quite correct in assuming that the pilot was "Doomed" in attempting a landing at that estimated weight/temp/altitude in a 206B3.
My initial W&B & performance calc shows that the max HOGE weight at 11,000 +10C is approx 2700 lbs.
The scenario that you explained works out to be approx 2966 lb (given a 1,900 lb airframe, and 38 USG - 266 lb fuel). I don't have a 206B3 RFM on the Base, but used www.bellhelicopter.com to get the performance information.
I would suggest that flying an approach to 11,000 at +10 to +15C to a spot that may require HOGE performance at a weight which is possibly 266 lb above the manufacturers RFM limitations may certainly result in "doom".
My personal expericence with the 206B3 is that it will certainly perform at or above the RFM charts.
My initial W&B & performance calc shows that the max HOGE weight at 11,000 +10C is approx 2700 lbs.
The scenario that you explained works out to be approx 2966 lb (given a 1,900 lb airframe, and 38 USG - 266 lb fuel). I don't have a 206B3 RFM on the Base, but used www.bellhelicopter.com to get the performance information.
I would suggest that flying an approach to 11,000 at +10 to +15C to a spot that may require HOGE performance at a weight which is possibly 266 lb above the manufacturers RFM limitations may certainly result in "doom".
My personal expericence with the 206B3 is that it will certainly perform at or above the RFM charts.
Join Date: Jun 1999
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Well I don't have a AFM for a 206B3 handy. But if that one was anything like the last one, I flown, he was to heavy by at least 300 to 400 lbs. Not knowing the condition of the aircraft, is hard to really give an answer. You know what he had for power? There are a lot of 206's that are a bit on the weak side of the Power Assurance Chart. So not knowing the hard facts for that helicopter, its really not fair to guess. Now your load in a 407 would be no problem.
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Using 3top’s scenario and based on a machine I know, which has a basic weight 1988 lbs, I would estimate that the stricken machine had a weight of 2917 lbs. (I have used less fuel than 407 driver reckoning 18 US gallons would meet the ‘45 minutes including reserve’).
From the RFM I calculate the max weight for an OGE hover in the vicinity of the LZ would be 2650 lbs for an aircraft without a particle separator and 2620 lbs for one with a particle separator.
So I would concur that the machine would probably be 250 to 300 lbs overweight.
If a ‘hard landing’ was the result then they may wish to regard themselves as lucky. The last case I was involved with that had a similar scenario the engine topped out, and the helicopter suffered rotor rpm decay, loss of directional control and caused multiple fatalities.
From the RFM I calculate the max weight for an OGE hover in the vicinity of the LZ would be 2650 lbs for an aircraft without a particle separator and 2620 lbs for one with a particle separator.
So I would concur that the machine would probably be 250 to 300 lbs overweight.
If a ‘hard landing’ was the result then they may wish to regard themselves as lucky. The last case I was involved with that had a similar scenario the engine topped out, and the helicopter suffered rotor rpm decay, loss of directional control and caused multiple fatalities.
Are you talking Altitudes based on 1013 or heights based on QFE/QNH?
The elevation needs to be converted to a Pressure Altitude and then a Density Altitude to sort out performance.
The elevation needs to be converted to a Pressure Altitude and then a Density Altitude to sort out performance.
Join Date: Feb 2002
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The only thing you need to land or TO at in those conditions is a field (half a soccer field for example) and to carefully watch the wind or you will use all you power in your feet.
Anyway, landing shouldn't have been the problem, but unless he had a large flat field I don't see how he was going to take off.
Anyway, landing shouldn't have been the problem, but unless he had a large flat field I don't see how he was going to take off.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Okay guys,
the actual altitude was/is 11200 ft, temp was based on my own overflight of the site 3 weeks ago. Temp hardly changes around the year. I don't know how much temp changes over the day, that's why I stated 10-15 C.
Blender, there would be fields that are bigger than a soccer field, but you have to go down into a narrow valley like chute to land and then there is no go-around (...nor would you ever get out of there with the same load).
This is on the top of a volcano (non-active).
Anyway the plan was not to land on any of the fields but directly on one of the ridges around the crater where TV/Radio/Phone has a lot of antennas.
HOGE-performance is a must to approach/land, especially as there was hardly any wind that day.
The owner of the "incident" (actually the 206 is scrap metal, luckily only light injuries to the pilot) was sampling our EC120 two days ago, and will probably go for a new one. I warned him about the performance difference of the EC120 versus 206 at these altitudes, but he generally doesn't go there, so it seems the EC will fit his user profile just perfect. (I know the 206 beats the EC hands down up there....)
He was flying with his 2 sons who are both low time private pilots.
They basically confirmed my suspisions: 4 persons on board, average 175 lb + 60 gallons of fuel.
They indicated that the wreck is at around 10000ft, but from their discription "it" started to happen at the antennas (11200 ft).
The pilot was an "experienced" veteran - so experienced he never bothered to check performance-charts in the POH.....
As mentioned I was asked to possibly fly insurance personal to the site. The EC-performance-chart for HOGE gives me roughly 300kg over emptyweight - fuel-pilot-cargo/pax for the same conditions - so it would be one pax only, little fuel job.
Still I would check that with an HOGE in free air if the flight ever comes through.
In this case complacency killed the cat!
Thanks for all your inputs!
3top
the actual altitude was/is 11200 ft, temp was based on my own overflight of the site 3 weeks ago. Temp hardly changes around the year. I don't know how much temp changes over the day, that's why I stated 10-15 C.
Blender, there would be fields that are bigger than a soccer field, but you have to go down into a narrow valley like chute to land and then there is no go-around (...nor would you ever get out of there with the same load).
This is on the top of a volcano (non-active).
Anyway the plan was not to land on any of the fields but directly on one of the ridges around the crater where TV/Radio/Phone has a lot of antennas.
HOGE-performance is a must to approach/land, especially as there was hardly any wind that day.
The owner of the "incident" (actually the 206 is scrap metal, luckily only light injuries to the pilot) was sampling our EC120 two days ago, and will probably go for a new one. I warned him about the performance difference of the EC120 versus 206 at these altitudes, but he generally doesn't go there, so it seems the EC will fit his user profile just perfect. (I know the 206 beats the EC hands down up there....)
He was flying with his 2 sons who are both low time private pilots.
They basically confirmed my suspisions: 4 persons on board, average 175 lb + 60 gallons of fuel.
They indicated that the wreck is at around 10000ft, but from their discription "it" started to happen at the antennas (11200 ft).
The pilot was an "experienced" veteran - so experienced he never bothered to check performance-charts in the POH.....
As mentioned I was asked to possibly fly insurance personal to the site. The EC-performance-chart for HOGE gives me roughly 300kg over emptyweight - fuel-pilot-cargo/pax for the same conditions - so it would be one pax only, little fuel job.
Still I would check that with an HOGE in free air if the flight ever comes through.
In this case complacency killed the cat!
Thanks for all your inputs!
3top
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Chilliwack, BC Canada
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SHortshaft, please explain your 18 USG thoughts?
I'm assuming that you'd use 15 USG as a minimum (I have for my career) then a burn of 30 USG / Hr x 45 minutes = an additional 22.5 USG. The total adding up to 37.5 USG.
Crab, Bell HIGE / HOGE charts are based on Pressure altitudes.
I'm assuming that you'd use 15 USG as a minimum (I have for my career) then a burn of 30 USG / Hr x 45 minutes = an additional 22.5 USG. The total adding up to 37.5 USG.
Crab, Bell HIGE / HOGE charts are based on Pressure altitudes.
407 - I guessed they were since most performance graphs are but I wasn't sure how 3top was assessing the altitude - did he climb on QNH and note the reading or did he have 1013 when he did the flypast? I think from his answers that he had 1013 set which at 11200' gives a DA of 13200' with +10 degC and 13840' with +15degC.
Join Date: Apr 2002
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407 Driver,
Thanks for the explanation of your fuel plan.
I was calculating on the basis of my understanding of the statement of the fuel on board being ‘45 minutes including reserve’. From that I calculate at a consumption of 24 USG / hr the fuel required was 18 USG.
As I see it the minimum planned fuel for landing is 20 minutes. Obviously depending on the type of operation (e.g. Part 135 equivalent) we may be required to carry an extra 10% variable reserve and an additional fixed reserve of 30 minutes (company requirement), but that was not stipulated in the original post.
I see that you are using 30 minutes fixed reserve at 30 USG/hr + 45 minutes at 30 USG /hr. Fair enough, but I query the fuel consumption rate you have chosen. As I read the graphs I would expect a lower fuel flow given the scenario quoted.
I didn't want to exaggerate in my post; I wanted to give the pilot of the incident aircraft the benefit of the doubt.
Happy Landings!
Thanks for the explanation of your fuel plan.
I was calculating on the basis of my understanding of the statement of the fuel on board being ‘45 minutes including reserve’. From that I calculate at a consumption of 24 USG / hr the fuel required was 18 USG.
As I see it the minimum planned fuel for landing is 20 minutes. Obviously depending on the type of operation (e.g. Part 135 equivalent) we may be required to carry an extra 10% variable reserve and an additional fixed reserve of 30 minutes (company requirement), but that was not stipulated in the original post.
I see that you are using 30 minutes fixed reserve at 30 USG/hr + 45 minutes at 30 USG /hr. Fair enough, but I query the fuel consumption rate you have chosen. As I read the graphs I would expect a lower fuel flow given the scenario quoted.
I didn't want to exaggerate in my post; I wanted to give the pilot of the incident aircraft the benefit of the doubt.
Happy Landings!
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sydney
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Polair retire last Bell 206
Channel Nine News in Sydney had a human interest story tonight, reporting that the NSW police today retired their last Bell 206 from service and are placing it into the museum for all to enjoy. The government has placed approx $M2.8 aside to replace the aging relic...... gunna miss seeing the old girl beating the skys, but I spose there are enough other aging relics (like the ones i fly) still around!
Do we have any idea on a replacment, and will they paint this one ship side grey?
Do we have any idea on a replacment, and will they paint this one ship side grey?
Join Date: Feb 2004
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It would have been a great feat for the boys to continue running it for another few months to hit that magic milestone.
It had to another AS350 to keep the maintenance streamlined....
It had to another AS350 to keep the maintenance streamlined....
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Philadelphia PA
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Highlights the problems with civil performance charts - they only give 'hover capability' and not power required to hover vs. height AGL like the military charts do.
Couple that with less than perfect knowledge of the power available from the engine (was this engine passing the power assurance check?), and you have the recipe for this accident to be repeated.
Subject of my next article in Rotor and Wing...
(and unless there is a large difference between the altimeter setting and standard pressure the actual altitude is close to the pressure altitude - but 10-15C is nearly 20C warmer than standard day for that altitude)
Couple that with less than perfect knowledge of the power available from the engine (was this engine passing the power assurance check?), and you have the recipe for this accident to be repeated.
Subject of my next article in Rotor and Wing...
(and unless there is a large difference between the altimeter setting and standard pressure the actual altitude is close to the pressure altitude - but 10-15C is nearly 20C warmer than standard day for that altitude)
Those machines were worked hard, around 100 hours per month each, with almost every takeoff at max weight. They performed pretty well, considering what we asked of them and the multiple roles required.
Hoisting a stranded policeman and his dog (part of a team trying to rescue a dopey bushwalker) off a cliff face in pouring rain and desperately low fuel was one of the fun memories. Specially the look on the dog's face.....
Hoisting a stranded policeman and his dog (part of a team trying to rescue a dopey bushwalker) off a cliff face in pouring rain and desperately low fuel was one of the fun memories. Specially the look on the dog's face.....