Silence on Pakistan operations
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Silence on Pakistan operations
Maybe I've missed something, but it seems quite astonishing that at a time when surely the biggest issue curently involving helicopters is the Pakistan earthquake, not a single thread here refers to it.
Meanwhile there's no shortage of contributions on "the best torch..." and juvenile mass-debating over personal firearms etc - plus the inevitable bickering over Robinsons (I'm guessing on the last one).
Given the gravity of the situation in Pakistan and the centrality of helicopters to the relief effort I'd expected to see something of interest.
Perhaps no-one's interested?
Meanwhile there's no shortage of contributions on "the best torch..." and juvenile mass-debating over personal firearms etc - plus the inevitable bickering over Robinsons (I'm guessing on the last one).
Given the gravity of the situation in Pakistan and the centrality of helicopters to the relief effort I'd expected to see something of interest.
Perhaps no-one's interested?
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CC - I doubt people arent interested, I would say the reason for not much discussion is apart from the Pakistani military there are bugger all helicopters there.
I have been talking to friends in Kabul and some of their Mi-8s have gone over to help in the relief efforts, congrats to them
I am surprised how little the civil helo industry has done when it comes to getting helos to the quake area. When we were in Banda Aceh helicopters were coming out of the woodwork, yet 3 weeks after the quake happened all I have seen so far is the two Chinooks sent by the UK and now some mil helos from the US military
Where are all these operators who were so quick to help in Indonesia.
Just my two cents worth.
Ned
I have been talking to friends in Kabul and some of their Mi-8s have gone over to help in the relief efforts, congrats to them
I am surprised how little the civil helo industry has done when it comes to getting helos to the quake area. When we were in Banda Aceh helicopters were coming out of the woodwork, yet 3 weeks after the quake happened all I have seen so far is the two Chinooks sent by the UK
and now some mil helos from the US military Where are all these operators who were so quick to help in Indonesia.
Just my two cents worth.
Ned
Ned,
Sheer geography works against them...it is a long way from anywhere and not all that many aircraft in the immediate area. Aramco has some aircraft in Saudi...as does the Saudi military...there are some aircraft in Iran doing offshore work but not very many....the Iranians have a lot of broke Bell's left over from the Shah's days...Gulf, Aerogulf, and Abu Dhabi are in the Persian Gulf but again a long way away.
Sheer geography works against them...it is a long way from anywhere and not all that many aircraft in the immediate area. Aramco has some aircraft in Saudi...as does the Saudi military...there are some aircraft in Iran doing offshore work but not very many....the Iranians have a lot of broke Bell's left over from the Shah's days...Gulf, Aerogulf, and Abu Dhabi are in the Persian Gulf but again a long way away.
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SASless - Fair comment but do you think Banda Aceh was nereby
Aircraft were ferried from NZ to Indonesia for the Tsunami and helos were sent from South Africa and the USA by IL76 and other heavy freighters. There was a lot of discussion about these aid companies with helo assets a their disposal but where the heck are they now
Anyway I think more could have been done, like the old saying, where theres a will theres a way.
Ned
Aircraft were ferried from NZ to Indonesia for the Tsunami and helos were sent from South Africa and the USA by IL76 and other heavy freighters. There was a lot of discussion about these aid companies with helo assets a their disposal but where the heck are they now
Anyway I think more could have been done, like the old saying, where theres a will theres a way.
Ned
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I will take bets that the Military may not allow too many "unapproved Aircraft" in that area. Beside the Earthquake fault, its also not politically stable.
Then the other thought. Whos gonna pay? Operators are not into volunteering their aircraft for free. Humanitarian in this world means "Show me the Money"
Then the other thought. Whos gonna pay? Operators are not into volunteering their aircraft for free. Humanitarian in this world means "Show me the Money"
B Sousa is on the money, word from ground zero is that the PAK gov is causing all kinds of problems - may be unintentional but you know the way these places work... 
Who's hiring?
Despite repeated offers to assist in various activities around the World, we, along with a large number of Operators never got hired.
It is impossible to find out how is co-ordinating the logistical contracting of the equipment, and then it seems to be on some kind of random basis.
The Operators know the capability and capacity of the machines that can provide real value in instances of this type. This however may have little bearing on what is getting hired and who is providing them.
Perhaps if the agencies involved responded to the proposals that the Operators submitted, then they might get a real response. Better still, if they provided detailed requests for proposals and submissions, they might get a faster, better defined response, and they might get more bang for their buck.
It is like all business of this nature. If you are in the right place at the right time, you may well get hired. You also need the right contacts, especially when the contracting system is running at capacity and they have limited ability to respond to unknown vendors. A lot of it appears organized at a Governmental level, especially as the funding may come from specific governments, and logisitically, it makes more sense to bring in the closest resources in the region. Of course, you have to have a receptive government to allow foreign operators in anyway.
I seriously doubt that any large scale commercial helicopter support will be forthcoming following this disaster, unless the magnitude of the after events becomes a collosal disaster.
Maybe it is time that an international listing of operators defining capability and location should be compiled. It is also essential that any response provides the management, operational structure and logistical planning to actually utilise the equipment - safely. There is no point in sending a bunch of machinery that no-one knows how to utilise, or they have no fuel for! In many of these responses, time is absolutely of the essence if they are to contribute in the primary rescue stage. It seems that every time there is any natural disaster there is a void, as the extent of the damage is assessed, then the services are contracted, and finally they show up.
Maybe if we as an industry worked together on this issue, we might actually achieve somwthing positive and useful to those unfortunate enough to require our services.
Despite repeated offers to assist in various activities around the World, we, along with a large number of Operators never got hired.
It is impossible to find out how is co-ordinating the logistical contracting of the equipment, and then it seems to be on some kind of random basis.
The Operators know the capability and capacity of the machines that can provide real value in instances of this type. This however may have little bearing on what is getting hired and who is providing them.
Perhaps if the agencies involved responded to the proposals that the Operators submitted, then they might get a real response. Better still, if they provided detailed requests for proposals and submissions, they might get a faster, better defined response, and they might get more bang for their buck.
It is like all business of this nature. If you are in the right place at the right time, you may well get hired. You also need the right contacts, especially when the contracting system is running at capacity and they have limited ability to respond to unknown vendors. A lot of it appears organized at a Governmental level, especially as the funding may come from specific governments, and logisitically, it makes more sense to bring in the closest resources in the region. Of course, you have to have a receptive government to allow foreign operators in anyway.
I seriously doubt that any large scale commercial helicopter support will be forthcoming following this disaster, unless the magnitude of the after events becomes a collosal disaster.
Maybe it is time that an international listing of operators defining capability and location should be compiled. It is also essential that any response provides the management, operational structure and logistical planning to actually utilise the equipment - safely. There is no point in sending a bunch of machinery that no-one knows how to utilise, or they have no fuel for! In many of these responses, time is absolutely of the essence if they are to contribute in the primary rescue stage. It seems that every time there is any natural disaster there is a void, as the extent of the damage is assessed, then the services are contracted, and finally they show up.
Maybe if we as an industry worked together on this issue, we might actually achieve somwthing positive and useful to those unfortunate enough to require our services.
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Haven't seen much mention of civil assets, but the US Army is committing up to 40 CH-47s (some shipped directly from the CONUS, and some diverted from OEF duties), while Afghanistan has provided half a dozen Mi-17s.
The scale of the emergency seems to have caught the international community out. Although NATO has recently committed to provide air relief assets, when Islamabad originally asked for helicopter assets a couple of days after the quake the organization formally declined to provide assets from on-going ops North of the border (8/12). Fortunately for NATO, the news agencies haven’t picked this up.
And as B Souza hints, Pakistan has already rejected Indian helo assets unless they were delivered without crews (kinda like Syria asking Israel to loan it a squadron of Black Hawks or Apaches). Surprisingly enough, India declined...
I/C
The scale of the emergency seems to have caught the international community out. Although NATO has recently committed to provide air relief assets, when Islamabad originally asked for helicopter assets a couple of days after the quake the organization formally declined to provide assets from on-going ops North of the border (8/12). Fortunately for NATO, the news agencies haven’t picked this up.
And as B Souza hints, Pakistan has already rejected Indian helo assets unless they were delivered without crews (kinda like Syria asking Israel to loan it a squadron of Black Hawks or Apaches). Surprisingly enough, India declined...
I/C
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And as B Souza hints, Pakistan has already rejected Indian helo assets unless they were delivered without crews (kinda like Syria asking Israel to loan it a squadron of Black Hawks or Apaches). Surprisingly enough, India declined...
I think this will pretty much be a Military Operation, when thats over, thats it.
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Likewise I was surprised at the lack of discussion, but as Ned points out, perhaps thats the way the Pakistan military want it.
An article on the front page of Saturday's FT has the word "helicopters" five times in ten column inches. Each word is associated with the lack of them. For instance:
Jan Egeland, UN disaster relief honcho reprted that "he had only limited success in his call for light helicopters to distribute the aid."
"NATO continues to experience problems in supplying helicopters to distribute aid to those most in need."
"Efforts to secure more have resulted only in commitments from Germany for four more"
James Jones, of NATO, "Helicopters have been a real problem for us to generate, not only for Pakistan but also for Afghanistan."
A "senior Pakistani official" refering to Chinooks said, "If such US helicopters arrive soon, their capacity could make a world of difference."
It is so frustrating knowing the potential of a helicopter to save lives and reduce suffering and then watching people die for their want. As Cyclic points out, most operators know what their machines can do, but even the public can see that a ton of water can keep a village going for a day, a ton of food for two days, a ton of blankets for a week. And that is three trips for a light machine, 300 people relieved. Now lets fly in the MSF team.
I would suspect that the Pakistani military (who are the government, essentially) just cannot let go and see foreign commercial operators carry out operations of which they are incapable. But the slow, slow reaction time of the big organisations such as the UN and NATO tied up in their red tape is also to blame.
Anyone want to set up a "Helicopters San Frontiers"?
An article on the front page of Saturday's FT has the word "helicopters" five times in ten column inches. Each word is associated with the lack of them. For instance:
Jan Egeland, UN disaster relief honcho reprted that "he had only limited success in his call for light helicopters to distribute the aid."
"NATO continues to experience problems in supplying helicopters to distribute aid to those most in need."
"Efforts to secure more have resulted only in commitments from Germany for four more"
James Jones, of NATO, "Helicopters have been a real problem for us to generate, not only for Pakistan but also for Afghanistan."
A "senior Pakistani official" refering to Chinooks said, "If such US helicopters arrive soon, their capacity could make a world of difference."
It is so frustrating knowing the potential of a helicopter to save lives and reduce suffering and then watching people die for their want. As Cyclic points out, most operators know what their machines can do, but even the public can see that a ton of water can keep a village going for a day, a ton of food for two days, a ton of blankets for a week. And that is three trips for a light machine, 300 people relieved. Now lets fly in the MSF team.
I would suspect that the Pakistani military (who are the government, essentially) just cannot let go and see foreign commercial operators carry out operations of which they are incapable. But the slow, slow reaction time of the big organisations such as the UN and NATO tied up in their red tape is also to blame.
Anyone want to set up a "Helicopters San Frontiers"?
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One thing I will say is that a lot of operators are skeptical about sending helos to this part of the world, and I am talking India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka etc.
Tim Wahlberg and the guys from Evergreen took a plane load of supplies to Sri Lanka when the Tsunami hit and had a horrible time with the B/S there. They flew more things in in their Gulfstream, GIV and at about 1am in the morning they got a call from some Govt official telling them that if they didnt get their aircraft out of the country within a couple of hours they were going to seize it. Talk about an ungrateful attitude.
If the military want to play these sorts of games then they should scream and bitch when no one wants to come and help them.
The comments that its a civil war area cant be founded as Aceh provence where we were in Indonesia has been in a state of armed conflict for decades.
Anyway, on a seperate note I am starting to put together a site where companies, pilots and engineers etc can post their details and we will try and help co-ordinate some sort of response when the next disaster hits. Its not if, but when. We have lined up support etc from people and the support from Tim etc at Evergreen to ship helos around the world has been tremendous. I will keep you all posted once the site becomes active.
Cheers
Ned
Tim Wahlberg and the guys from Evergreen took a plane load of supplies to Sri Lanka when the Tsunami hit and had a horrible time with the B/S there. They flew more things in in their Gulfstream, GIV and at about 1am in the morning they got a call from some Govt official telling them that if they didnt get their aircraft out of the country within a couple of hours they were going to seize it. Talk about an ungrateful attitude.
If the military want to play these sorts of games then they should scream and bitch when no one wants to come and help them.
The comments that its a civil war area cant be founded as Aceh provence where we were in Indonesia has been in a state of armed conflict for decades.
Anyway, on a seperate note I am starting to put together a site where companies, pilots and engineers etc can post their details and we will try and help co-ordinate some sort of response when the next disaster hits. Its not if, but when. We have lined up support etc from people and the support from Tim etc at Evergreen to ship helos around the world has been tremendous. I will keep you all posted once the site becomes active.
Cheers
Ned
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The posts already made are along the lines of what I was previously expecting to see - in the sense that some discussion of the relationship between the resources that are potentially available and the political will to marshall them is overdue. Let's hope that this may stimulate some additional activity. Meanwhile the weather up there is getting worse by the day.
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Bert, Who's money will we use?
The same peoples money that the other 5,000 odd NGO's use. Other peoples, given of their own free will. There's a lot of it out there, it just needs smart people to harvest it.
True we are talking bigger bucks than a mom and pop charity, but I believe a small Quick Reaction team of, say ten medium machines and a couple of transports plus logistics could be funded. Stick the Microsoft Foundation Logo on the side for a start...
The same peoples money that the other 5,000 odd NGO's use. Other peoples, given of their own free will. There's a lot of it out there, it just needs smart people to harvest it.
True we are talking bigger bucks than a mom and pop charity, but I believe a small Quick Reaction team of, say ten medium machines and a couple of transports plus logistics could be funded. Stick the Microsoft Foundation Logo on the side for a start...
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volunteer work
I've tried to volunteer my services as a loadmaster in the relief efforts for both the Boxing Day tsunami and the recent South Asian earthquake but the larger organisations don't appear to have any involvement in the aviation side of things.
Judging by the entries in this thread, there doesn't actually appear to be a whole lot of efficient action in terms of getting help to the tens of thousands that are slowly freezing to death on the mountain slopes.
I would definitely be interested in working as a volunteer with an airborne emergency response team or with any company responding to humanitarian disasters of this type.
Seems a terrible shame and indictment that the delivery of aid must be compromised when so many people are prepared to help.
Judging by the entries in this thread, there doesn't actually appear to be a whole lot of efficient action in terms of getting help to the tens of thousands that are slowly freezing to death on the mountain slopes.
I would definitely be interested in working as a volunteer with an airborne emergency response team or with any company responding to humanitarian disasters of this type.
Seems a terrible shame and indictment that the delivery of aid must be compromised when so many people are prepared to help.
CC, I think you will find most people do care it's just that there has been little real info regarding civil operations. Other than the offer from India that was rejected, I have heard little regarding civilian operators or much in general regarding helicopters on the media here. If someone were to put a post on this site asking for pilots to volunteer I'm sure they would get a great response. Give me a call. If my boss lets me go, I'll be there tomorrow. Quite happy to pay my own air-fare.
People are free to post anything they want. Your "rant" before was a bit uncalled for. If you don't have an interest in a particular thread, then don't read it.
You yourself could have started a topic on Pakistan earlier...
People are free to post anything they want. Your "rant" before was a bit uncalled for. If you don't have an interest in a particular thread, then don't read it.
You yourself could have started a topic on Pakistan earlier...
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Hardly a rant! I can do rants too, and this wasn't one of them!
Anyone looking at this board as an indication of where participants' priorities lie would be likely to notice what I pointed out - none too subtly, I admit. But was I wrong in substance? Responses so far would seem to indicate otherwise.
As for starting the thread myself, as a "civilian" I'm reluctant to put my fourpence worth in and finally did so only because I couldn't believe no-one else had.
Many good suggestions have been made but as someone outside the industry I'm not the best person to pursue them. Allocating and funding resources from the civil sector to relief operations is surely possible if the will exists though - even if a Microsoft logo's the only way to do it...
As an aside, one thing that struck me several times in the news coverage was the debate about supplying the victims with relief in situ, as against lifting them out. There are obviously lots of variables involved but nowhere did I see even rough estimates of the total lift capacity required to get the worst affected proportion of the victims out before weather conditions make supply/resupply an impossibility.
Anyone looking at this board as an indication of where participants' priorities lie would be likely to notice what I pointed out - none too subtly, I admit. But was I wrong in substance? Responses so far would seem to indicate otherwise.
As for starting the thread myself, as a "civilian" I'm reluctant to put my fourpence worth in and finally did so only because I couldn't believe no-one else had.
Many good suggestions have been made but as someone outside the industry I'm not the best person to pursue them. Allocating and funding resources from the civil sector to relief operations is surely possible if the will exists though - even if a Microsoft logo's the only way to do it...
As an aside, one thing that struck me several times in the news coverage was the debate about supplying the victims with relief in situ, as against lifting them out. There are obviously lots of variables involved but nowhere did I see even rough estimates of the total lift capacity required to get the worst affected proportion of the victims out before weather conditions make supply/resupply an impossibility.
CC, don't let the fact you’re a civilian stop you. It didn't stop you accusing everyone here of giving "Torches and Guns" more priority than earthquake relief. How would you know the priorities I, or anyone else who posts here have. Have a good read through the “Tsunami” and “Katrina” threads, and you will get an idea about what people in this industry think when it comes to concern for others, and helping them.
I look at Pprune for the sometimes very informative threads, industry goss, and the occasional very funny thread. This Forum is for people in the industry, or those interested, to ask anything they want. Do all topics have to be serious? I deal with serious things on a daily basis, and it's good to go to a site with a wide verity of topics, and questions which are sometimes anything but serious. There probably hasn’t been much said for the reasons given, and also because you will find this subject was covered a lot with these 2 recent disasters.
I’m glad you’re upset about the plight of these people, as we all are, and if the they suddenly ask for pilot volunteers for light-singles, I’ll be keen.
Quick poll: Hands up anyone else who wants to go if there’s an offer? What about you CC? You may not be a pilot, but I’m sure you could lend a hand somewhere.
"Helicopters San Frontiers" sounds great. Money is the problem as always. Anyone know Bill…
I look at Pprune for the sometimes very informative threads, industry goss, and the occasional very funny thread. This Forum is for people in the industry, or those interested, to ask anything they want. Do all topics have to be serious? I deal with serious things on a daily basis, and it's good to go to a site with a wide verity of topics, and questions which are sometimes anything but serious. There probably hasn’t been much said for the reasons given, and also because you will find this subject was covered a lot with these 2 recent disasters.
I’m glad you’re upset about the plight of these people, as we all are, and if the they suddenly ask for pilot volunteers for light-singles, I’ll be keen.
Quick poll: Hands up anyone else who wants to go if there’s an offer? What about you CC? You may not be a pilot, but I’m sure you could lend a hand somewhere.
"Helicopters San Frontiers" sounds great. Money is the problem as always. Anyone know Bill…
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I've had loadmaster experience with heavy longline operations in mountainous terrain and can go on a few days notice.
Maybe we should just assume that there are loads of professionals and semipros that are just as eager as me to help, rather than scramble for the moral high ground or at least self-righteously ensure our right to its perilous access.
I'm a newbie on this forum and, in fact ,only came on board trying to get information about how I might become involved in the disaster relief because it seems that poorer countries are more prone to accept huge death tolls, and, that disorganization and corruption often hold sway because of the poor infrastructure.
I think Helicopters Sans Frontiers (HSF) is a great idea (although the name might be more original), and I am interested in getting something going.
If we started a thread and/or drew up a list of people who were ready to participate, or better yet formed an association of some type, then that would be a collective entity that carried some real weight in any communication.
Contancting a relief organisation or Microsoft or whoever and saying HSF has 20 or 50 people or 10 teams ready to fly on a few days notice has got to provide far more penetration of the chaos and get real attention compared to individual efforts that disappear off the radar faster than a UFO!!
Maybe we should just assume that there are loads of professionals and semipros that are just as eager as me to help, rather than scramble for the moral high ground or at least self-righteously ensure our right to its perilous access.
I'm a newbie on this forum and, in fact ,only came on board trying to get information about how I might become involved in the disaster relief because it seems that poorer countries are more prone to accept huge death tolls, and, that disorganization and corruption often hold sway because of the poor infrastructure.
I think Helicopters Sans Frontiers (HSF) is a great idea (although the name might be more original), and I am interested in getting something going.
If we started a thread and/or drew up a list of people who were ready to participate, or better yet formed an association of some type, then that would be a collective entity that carried some real weight in any communication.
Contancting a relief organisation or Microsoft or whoever and saying HSF has 20 or 50 people or 10 teams ready to fly on a few days notice has got to provide far more penetration of the chaos and get real attention compared to individual efforts that disappear off the radar faster than a UFO!!
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One of the biggest logistical problems that I can see with a "Helicopter Sans Frontieres" type organisation is getting the required permissions to fly into someone else's country. Medecin Sans Frontieres simply go in as tourists or sneak across a border if they are banned from a country, and work till they are thrown out.
That won't work for a helicopter team. They will need diplomatic clearance from half a dozen government departments who don't talk to each other, and some representatives may well want a cut of the proceeds to a numbered account before they lift a pen. Ned alluded to this problem in Aceh.
I was thinking along the lines of an organisation that had a very prominent name as a figurehead. A respected, retired politician like Mary Robinson, Margaret Thatcher, Bill Clinton (yes I know...) or Kofi Annan (sp?) when he retires. Someone who can pick up a phone to any world leader and tell them what we want to do. Maybe a big cheese in industry would have the contacts. Trawl through the invited list to the World Economic Forum and you get the idea.
I remember reading an opinion that Jimmy Carter did much more good using his influence as an ex president than he ever did in office. He is not the only one, and most of these guys are bored silly, dying to get on the world stage again.
Permissions to enter a disaster struck country must come from the top, after that it's up to the teams. As has been mentioned before however, remember that aid is 90% logistics and 10% flying.
FWIW
That won't work for a helicopter team. They will need diplomatic clearance from half a dozen government departments who don't talk to each other, and some representatives may well want a cut of the proceeds to a numbered account before they lift a pen. Ned alluded to this problem in Aceh.
I was thinking along the lines of an organisation that had a very prominent name as a figurehead. A respected, retired politician like Mary Robinson, Margaret Thatcher, Bill Clinton (yes I know...) or Kofi Annan (sp?) when he retires. Someone who can pick up a phone to any world leader and tell them what we want to do. Maybe a big cheese in industry would have the contacts. Trawl through the invited list to the World Economic Forum and you get the idea.
I remember reading an opinion that Jimmy Carter did much more good using his influence as an ex president than he ever did in office. He is not the only one, and most of these guys are bored silly, dying to get on the world stage again.
Permissions to enter a disaster struck country must come from the top, after that it's up to the teams. As has been mentioned before however, remember that aid is 90% logistics and 10% flying.
FWIW